3ABN Round 2

[BlessedMan]

On 11/19/2019 at 9:14 AM, pierrepaul said:

This has been my observation as well - sincere believers who studiously search the scriptures while praying for illumination from the Holy Spirit, and yet coming to irreconcilable differing conclusions.

this is myth #342. By whose estimation have said two different parties "studied" in this manner? I think it can be well-demonstrated that most people have varied motives and meanings behind them when reading scripture. So it does not really follow, in most cases, that just because two different people have looked at the same verse, would necessarily fall into this category of  "irreconcilable" different conclusions. The test of whether they have been led by The Spirit, may not even be visible to the human eye/mind; yet there is a way to realize whether they are being led by The Spirit. It wont be by their "doctrine" in the majority of cases. Calling two different people who look at a text "sincere" is like saying black is white, even though its black.

[thx4mercy]

On 11/24/2019 at 3:09 PM, BlessedMan said:

yet there is a way to realize whether they are being led by The Spirit. It wont be by their "doctrine" in the majority of cases.

How can we tell?

[JoeMo]

 

On 11/19/2019 at 9:14 AM, pierrepaul said:

This has been my observation as well - sincere believers who studiously search the scriptures while praying for illumination from the Holy Spirit, and yet coming to irreconcilable differing conclusions.

On 11/24/2019 at 3:09 PM, BlessedMan said:

this is myth #342. By whose estimation have said two different parties "studied" in this manner?

I think PP said this in response to a post I made saying I (as well as you) know several people in other denominations who diligently study the Word and reach different doctrinal conclusions than I do.  We see that even on this forum.  You and I have even debated about different interpretations of the same scripture.  Great example is the different conclusions one reaches about eschatology depending on their prophetic worldview - historic, preterist, or futurist.  While they all end at the same place (Christ's Second Coming), exactly how we get from here to there has been argued for centuries.

I think what's important is that we all believe Christ will return imminently.  Exactly how that happens is up for debate.  We'll know things as they happen.

[BlessedMan]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I think PP said this in response to a post I made saying I (as well as you) know several people in other denominations who diligently study the Word and reach different doctrinal conclusions than I do.

I agree, totally, and would add that my comment was not intended in any personal way to anyone, in particular. I have decided that its better to steer clear of trying to decide who is "sincere" and who is not. Too many variables make such conclusions impossible to be related to whether what they are saying is "truth" or not.

Jesus gave us a clue or two on HOW to decide on what to do or how to react to people with differing viewpoints: "Ye shall know them by their fruits," and this is my major point. The differences can either draw people closer together, by "fruit-bearing,"  but rarely, if ever, by "doctrinal agreement."  We dont have to agree on every doctrine, in order to "bear fruit." Our level of study, our motive in study, none of that should have anything to do with determining Biblical "truth," because the "fruit" is what must be evident, and that may not always include doctrinal agreement. Its like I said above somewhere, its what we do with our belief that is the "message."

[pierrepaul]

Re: Knowing them by their fruits

I agree that it is not my province to judge the sincerity of another. I tend to presume sincerity and good faith on the part of my brother and sisters, but I do not know.

I wonder what Jesus meant by "fruits". Was He talking about the "fruit of the spirit" to which Paul referred in Galatians 5:22-23? Or was He referring to something else? I've known people who I believe demonstrate true love towards their neighbours who explicitly reject Christianity and I've know professed Christians, including Adventists who I believe are simply nasty people. I personally don't see any correlation between belief and one's love and care for one's neighbours.

[BlessedMan]

7 hours ago, pierrepaul said:

I've known people who I believe demonstrate true love towards their neighbours who explicitly reject Christianity and I've know professed Christians, including Adventists who I believe are simply nasty people. I personally don't see any correlation between belief and one's love and care for one's neighbours.

It would be relatively easy to "agree" with you, either way on this.  "Demonstrate true love" is what I would question, but maybe not in quite the way one would suppose. When someone tells me that a "non-christian" is "just as good as or better than a Christian,"  for "showing true love;" it just creates more questions than it answers. It does remind me of the quote that says "all right impulses come from Christ," but then, conversely, not all people are "good" or "show love" because they are good. Inferior motives often prevail. "Even if one gives their body to be burned, and has not love," then its just a farce.  In other words, some who give their life for some belief, may be sacrificing in vain. Their "sacrifice" may have nothing to do with "true love."  I believe that this is the KIND of thing happening at 3ABN.

[phkrause]

God tells us not to judge, if we do he will judge us as we judge others! No? But he never said we couldn't judge actions, etc.? Do we not sit on jury's when called to jury duty? It's the soul that we don't judge, God see's the heart and we only see and judge the outward!

[pierrepaul]

17 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

It does remind me of the quote that says "all right impulses come from Christ,"

There is the text which says "everyone who loves is born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7).

While this is a great text, does it really suggest that the atheist who loves actually knows God in spite of himself? I like that thinking. I have met many wonderful people who are not believing Christians. Now of course the "good" in these non-believers is as filthy rags, just as the "good" in the believers is also as filthy rags. Nevertheless I see "good" in these imperfect people. But if God is to save these "good" imperfect people, and forgive them as He forgave His crucifiers "for they know not what they do", does that render the whole idea of Christian practice and ritual meaningless? I do not know. I see through a glass darkly. The more I study and pray, the more questions and fewer answers I have. Perhaps I am not studying and praying sincerely; again I do not know.

[JoeMo]

What sets Christian love apart from non-Christian love is the ingredient of faith and trust in Christ.  All the good deeds in the world won't save us without faith in Christ.  I take it literally when Acts 4:12 says:

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

So what about those who never learned of Jesus or got a twisted view of Him from misguided religion?  I believe that one way or another, all will have a chance to make an informed choice for or against Christ.  One way this could happen is when the "rest of the dead" are raised at the end of the Millennium, as proposed by Rachel.  I like that theory.  It gives me something to wrap my head around.

[B/W Photodude]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I believe that one way or another, all will have a chance to make an informed choice for or against Christ.  One way this could happen is when the "rest of the dead" are raised at the end of the Millennium, as proposed by Rachel.

I think that is very dangerous way of thinking. Of course, all have a chance to make an informed choice, but not after the millennium and not after being raised from the dead. Other wise that pronouncement of Michael regarding "let the filthy be filthy still" would have no meaning. There seems to be a number of views out there leading people to believe they do not have to take seriously  making a decision now because "you will have all kinds of chances later."

[BlessedMan]

2 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I think that is very dangerous way of thinking. Of course, all have a chance to make an informed choice, but not after the millennium and not after being raised from the dead. Other wise that pronouncement of Michael regarding "let the filthy be filthy still" would have no meaning. There seems to be a number of views out there leading people to believe they do not have to take seriously  making a decision now because "you will have all kinds of chances later."

I agree, 110%  When I have time will post a few details pertinent to this point

[BlessedMan]

7 hours ago, pierrepaul said:

There is the text which says "everyone who loves is born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7).

While this is a great text, does it really suggest that the atheist who loves actually knows God in spite of himself?

May I ask a clarifying question, before I reply, please? Are you trying to define "love" as being "good deeds," or doing "good things" (to others?

[JoeMo]

20 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I think that is very dangerous way of thinking. Of course, all have a chance to make an informed choice,

What I posted is just an opinion.  I'm not God; I don't "know" how He handles people whose unbelief is out of ignorance or twisted training. I can only guess.  I would be interested to know what others whom I respect here - like B/W, BM, Rachel, and others.  We're not God; so I understand that anything we come up with is pure conjecture.  How do you think (or guess) God judges those who never had the opportunity to know Him in this life? 

[Gregory Matthews]

God charges us with sin in relation to what the Holy Spirit has convicted us.  If we have not been convicted by the HS, we are not charged with sin.   James 4:17 and more.  

[JoeMo]

On 11/28/2019 at 12:46 PM, B/W Photodude said:

There seems to be a number of views out there leading people to believe they do not have to take seriously  making a decision now because "you will have all kinds of chances later."

That is not what I'm saying at all. I (and most of us on this forum) have either been raised in Christianity or converted to it after some prayer and Bible study (i.e., have had our opportunity to make that informed decision. Probably half of the humans who have ever lived never had that opportunity. Probably 1/4 of the people alive today never had that opportunity. I'm not God; but IMHO satan would have a valid complaint against God if primitive people currently unreached by missionaries, severely retarded people or young children (including aborted babies?) we summarily destroyed simply because they never had an opportunity to express faith in Christ.  After all,

""Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

[BlessedMan]

21 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Probably half of the humans who have ever lived never had that opportunity.

This is simply NOT true at all. EVERYONE gets a "chance" to live up to the light they have. regardless of the 'amount" of Light they had/have. Name-dropping verses like Acts 4:12 does not translate into nullification of God's ability to give everyone the credit they deserve, according to the light they had, and what they did with that light. THATS why Jesus will say at His second coming:

Quote

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. (Rev 22:11)

The Bible does not provide "guesswork" on this subject. Thats why Jesus also will say:

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.  (Rev 22:12)

In all the glory of colonialism and bruited "unity"  we like to say how EVERYONE must come to Jesus, follow the Light they have, in just the way we say they should, and thats why we keep drumming up all these supposed "second chances."

[BlessedMan]

On 11/28/2019 at 4:37 PM, BlessedMan said:

On 11/28/2019 at 9:11 AM, pierrepaul said:

There is the text which says "everyone who loves is born of God and knows God" (1 John 4:7).

While this is a great text, does it really suggest that the atheist who loves actually knows God in spite of himself?

May I ask a clarifying question, before I reply, please? Are you trying to define "love" as being "good deeds," or doing "good things" (to others?

There is a reason or two I asked this question here; I submit a quote to illustrate; it is quite Biblical, too

Quote

There are many who forsake the fountain of living waters, and hew out for themselves cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water; but Christ, the Rock of Ages, invites the weary and the wandering to come unto him and find rest for their souls, to come and obtain peace and salvation. Many are walking apart from Christ, not obeying his words or working his works, and yet they are pretending to be holy; but this claim will not stand the test of the Judgment. It is true that our works will not save us, and yet no one will be saved without good works. A pure life, a holy character, must be attained by everyone who would enter the portals of the city of God. The moralist, trusting in his own goodness, will be found wanting. Like Cain, he presents a sacrifice which does not recognize the blood of Jesus as essential to cleanse from the defilement of sin. Every sinner must have virtue that is not possessed by himself. Our door-post must be marked by the atoning blood, thus acknowledging our own inefficiency, and the merits of the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world; for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.  {ST, July 13, 1888 par. 4} 

So again: doing good things, being a good person, could have some hazards?