Is the Church leaving you?

[Gregory Matthews]

See;

https://atoday.org/when-the-church-leaves-you/

 

NOTE:  The author of this article is a devoted Adventist and a personal friend of mine.

              This article does not advocate that any one leave the SDA denomination.  Rather, it points out that the SDA denomination seems on some levels to  want to shrink the membership roles.

 

[phkrause]

Not a bad article, just don't agree with him and the other thing, I could be wrong, but isn't Ethiopia south of Egypt??

[BlessedMan]

9 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

See;

https://atoday.org/when-the-church-leaves-you/

NOTE:  The author of this article is a devoted Adventist and a personal friend of mine.

              This article does not advocate that any one leave the SDA denomination.  Rather, it points out that the SDA denomination seems on some levels to                want to shrink the membership roles.

 

Well, as far as the title goes I CAN relate! lol I was actually saying this about a year ago to a few unfortunate ones who dared to listen to my ramblings about it. I would agree, the church IS leaving "certain people," but the one thing I dont get is the "real Adventist family"  practice of not playing/swimming in water above the knees! I thought I was hard-core when I was "a real Adventist;" but I never heard of that one!  I guess here, that would be OK in the winter. lol

[BlessedMan]

4 hours ago, phkrause said:

Not a bad article, just don't agree with him and the other thing, I could be wrong, but isn't Ethiopia south of Egypt??

I actually found a lot of agreement in this article. lol Thats unusual for me, with things that Gregory posts. (nothing personal ). The part where the author mentioned " the two most common structural ways of arriving at truth ," was/is right on. reminds me of some things I am studying now on the history and sociology of church in Canada. Truly, some things never change! Those two ideas have been around, literally, from the beginning.

[BlessedMan]

Quote

The greatest significance of these differing ways of approaching truth is not found at the individual level; it is located at the organizational level.

This is so true, from the article. If one were to look closely at the history and HOW churches were started, formed, and maintained; it always boils down to one version or another of this.

[Kevin H]

5 hours ago, phkrause said:

Not a bad article, just don't agree with him and the other thing, I could be wrong, but isn't Ethiopia south of Egypt??

Yes, but while most rivers run north to south, the Nile flows south to north.

[pierrepaul]

On 11/11/2019 at 1:58 AM, Kevin H said:

Yes, but while most rivers run north to south, the Nile flows south to north.

It depends where you live. In northern Europe, all of the Seine, Meuse, Rhine, Elbe, Oder, Vistula run south to north. When referring to geographic places, "upper", "lower", "above", "below", etc. are always in reference to elevation. So yes, Ethiopia is above Egypt. Paris is upstream from Le Havre. Mainz is above Köln. The upper Vistula is in the southern Carpathian mountains of Poland.

This convention is well-known and well-established. Unfortunately in the United States, with all of the Mississippi, Missouri, Hudson and Delaward running north to south, a number of Unitedstatians mistakenly have come to believe that "up" means "north" and "down" means "south".

Another convention relating to rivers is the references to the "left bank" and the "right bank". In this context, "left" and "right" are always in relation to the direction of the current. So while the left bank of the Rhine is to the West and the right bank to the East, the left bank of the Mississippi is to the West and the right bank is to the East. Again since this referring to "left bank" and "right bank" are more common in Europe than in America, some have erroneously been led to believe that "left" and "right" means "west" and "east". This is not true.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

On 11/10/2019 at 10:05 PM, BlessedMan said:

 the one thing I dont get is the "real Adventist family"  practice of not playing/swimming in water above the knees! I thought I was hard-core when I was "a real Adventist;" but I never heard of that one!  I guess here, that would be OK in the winter. lol

that was a big deal when I was growing up..  On Pathfinder or Jr Academy campouts, there was absolutely NO swimming on the Sabbath — it was wading only .... because, ooooooo, having fun on the Sabbath might lead to sin

My Dad (who was not SDA at that time) thought it was ridiculous — he still thought it was ridiculous after he became an SDA.

[BlessedMan]

21 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

that was a big deal when I was growing up..  On Pathfinder or Jr Academy campouts, there was absolutely NO swimming on the Sabbath — it was wading only .... because, ooooooo, having fun on the Sabbath might lead to sin

My Dad (who was not SDA at that time) thought it was ridiculous — he still thought it was ridiculous after he became an SDA.

the first question that came to mind when I read this was, "well I wonder why he joined?  I didn't really even hear of stuff like this until I moved somewhere else a few years after I was baptized. There are sure a lot of "rules" surrounding Sabbath, that to this day make me wonder why some people go for it. Right from the get-go I had people telling me, almost every Sabbath, what I did "wrong" and I remember being told "I didn't fit in." lol Well whats new world?

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

My Dad (who was not SDA at that time) thought it was ridiculous — he still thought it was ridiculous after he became an SDA.

 

4 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

the first question that came to mind when I read this was, "well I wonder why he joined?

There are some things I learned before I was baptized that I thought were ridiculous.  Some of these things I still think are ridiculous.

One thing I found to be ridiculous was making sure you purchased your Sabbath meal tickets prior to sundown of Friday when attending camp meeting.  So - I exchange US Government script for SDA script and pay for my meal that way?  Why couldn't I just use my credit card and pay when the bill comes in? IMHO, what's the difference?  The people in the kitchen are still working their fannies off (breaking the Sabbath?) no matter how people pay.

[BlessedMan]

44 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

 

There are some things I learned before I was baptized that I thought were ridiculous.  Some of these things I still think are ridiculous.

One thing I found to be ridiculous was making sure you purchased your Sabbath meal tickets prior to sundown of Friday when attending camp meeting.  So - I exchange US Government script for SDA script and pay for my meal that way?  Why couldn't I just use my credit card and pay when the bill comes in? IMHO, what's the difference?  The people in the kitchen are still working their fannies off (breaking the Sabbath?) no matter how people pay.

I have fond memories of "Adventists in good standing" who would wash the dishes on Sabbath; but NEVER dry them on Sabbath.

[phkrause]

On 11/11/2019 at 1:58 AM, Kevin H said:

Yes, but while most rivers run north to south, the Nile flows south to north.

I knew that, and thought about that, but the fact remains that Ethiopia is south of Egypt!!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

10 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

the first question that came to mind when I read this was, "well I wonder why he joined?

the reason Dad joined the Adventist church was because he was convinced it would be the remnant church, and because finally (in the 1980s) Adventists stopped being "holier than thou" to him, and started speaking to him as if he was their equal.  Before that time, most of the SDAs with whom he came into contact were stuffed shirted, snooty bigots.

I remember one time in Pathfinders before Dad was an SDA, he went on a campout with us (Dad had been in professional scouting, and knew more about the outdoors, camping, and survival than anyone else I ever knew.)  The Pathfinder leader had asked Dad to lead out in singing some campfire songs, so, naturally, he started teaching the kids a Boy Scout campfire song.  Sadly, it was called "Ham and Eggs,"  and the Pathfinder leader jumped up and yelled at Dad, "STOP!!  STOP!!!   WE DON'T SING THOSE KIND OF SONGS!!!"  Dad had no idea what the idiot was having a conniption fit about; he said later, he thought maybe his zipper was down or something.  But no....it was the fact that the song included the word, "Ham".....  

[JoeMo]

I remember a visitor bringing a bucket of KFC to a pot-luck once.  People were either snickering or complaining about it; but I noticed it was the first thing gone at the pot luck.  People must have snuck outside to eat it.

[BlessedMan]

42 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I remember a visitor bringing a bucket of KFC to a pot-luck once.  People were either snickering or complaining about it; but I noticed it was the first thing gone at the pot luck.  People must have snuck outside to eat it.

well, THAT is called "meat-sneaking!"

Ten Ways To Sneak Meat Into The Office/Church

[BlessedMan]

52 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

the reason Dad joined the Adventist church was because he was convinced it would be the remnant church, and because finally (in the 1980s) Adventists stopped being "holier than thou" to him, and started speaking to him as if he was their equal.  Before that time, most of the SDAs with whom he came into contact were stuffed shirted, snooty bigots.

I remember one time in Pathfinders before Dad was an SDA, he went on a campout with us (Dad had been in professional scouting, and knew more about the outdoors, camping, and survival than anyone else I ever knew.)  The Pathfinder leader had asked Dad to lead out in singing some campfire songs, so, naturally, he started teaching the kids a Boy Scout campfire song.  Sadly, it was called "Ham and Eggs,"  and the Pathfinder leader jumped up and yelled at Dad, "STOP!!  STOP!!!   WE DON'T SING THOSE KIND OF SONGS!!!"  Dad had no idea what the idiot was having a conniption fit about; he said later, he thought maybe his zipper was down or something.  But no....it was the fact that the song included the word, "Ham".....  

Thanks for sharing that. Your Dad sounds like someone I would have really enjoyed meeting.

This story reminds me of "Adventist Adventure #345" where a bunch of us were going for a "sabbath walk" down a popular hiking place in a big city. When we got to the river, one could either turn right or left, to continue on down whichever section of the river we chose to. BUT, right there at the junction, was an enterpreneur with an ice-cream cart scoring on almost all of the sweating hikers that were on the trail. It was impossible to miss him, he was just right there. An elder that was with us turned to me and said: "what do we do now?"  At this point all the kids were clamoring for ice cream, of course. I refused to say one way or another, and still, no one of our group got a lick of ice cream that day. I can tell you that three of the kids that were there that day stopped going to church the minute they turned into the age where they could decide for themselves. Im still not saying whether or not I think they should or should not have gotten ice cream; but what I can say is that they turned the whole thing into such a circus, it totally ruined everyone's day. "No rest for the wicked," I guess.

[pierrepaul]

A number of SdA cultural traditions surrounding the sabbath are silly.

I know people who will run the dishwasher on sabbath, but won't run the washing machine or dryer for clothes. I know people who will use a lint brush on their clothes sabbath morning, but who wouldn't dream of using a iron to get out the wrinkles. I know people who will go for long walks in the park, but will not go for a jog or run. I know people who will drive their cars on sabbath but won't take the bus, subway, taxi or uber. I know people who will park in a lot that the church rented for sabbath use, but who won't park on the street where a meter must be paid. I know people who will toss a frisbee back and forth but who won't play catch with a baseball. I know people who will cross-country ski but who won't downhill ski.

The list is endless. The SdA list of dos and don'ts for sabbath are ludicrous, and of course each SdA has his or her own personal list. As I get older, I am coming to the conclusion that Romans 14:5 means exactly what it says and that observance of days in the New Testament era is simply a matter of personal conviction.

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, pierrepaul said:

A number of SdA cultural traditions surrounding the sabbath are silly.

You could almost turn this into another thread - "What do you do on Sabbath that no one else would do?" or any number of other variations. Seems like everyone would have their own personal lists of dos and don'ts.

Sometimes I would like to see a show on TV that comes is broadcast on the Sabbath. While I may not watch it on the Sabbath, should I record it for after Sabbath viewing? (Of course, setting up the record function before Sabbath!)

How far will you drive on Sabbath. I know many will not drive beyond the range of their gas tank. The NT does refer to a Sabbath days journey, which on foot was less than a mile.

If I am drying a load of clothes, providing I get it started before Sabbath starts, can it continue and finish during the Sabbath?! Same for dishwashers, washers, etc.

Are all religious books kosher for Sabbath hours? Are books regarding Biblical history acceptable even if there is no spiritual application of the material?

My ex-brother-in-law is very Orthodox Jewish and they have very strict Sabbath rules. One was you could not turn things (radios,etc) on/off on the Sabbath. One time his two year old got ahold of the radio and turned it on to a rock music station with loud sound. They had to "endure" loud rock music in their house for the rest of the Sabbath!

You could go on and on with hypothetical invasions of the Sabbath hours. Probably the most important application you could draw from it would to not be an accuser of the brethren who understand and keep the Sabbath day somewhat differently than you.

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, B/W Photodude said:

Probably the most important application you could draw from it would to not be an accuser of the brethren who understand and keep the Sabbath day somewhat differently than you.

Amen!

[pierrepaul]

2 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Probably the most important application you could draw from it would to not be an accuser of the brethren who understand and keep the Sabbath day somewhat differently than you.

Yes, and after further reflection, I ought not to have referred to certain traditions, practices and beliefs of certain Adventists as "silly". Rather I should have simply stated that I personally find these fine distinctions unconvincing. I did not intend to disparage the sincere convictions of others.

[8thdaypriest]

When I was a kid, my Dad (a non-believer) would take us kids rock collecting and hiking around the Arizona desert, or beach combing at Ventura, Calif on Sabbath afternoon, while my Mom (devout SDA) took a nice long nap.  I have to say, that time with my Dad was some of the most "spiritual" I ever spent with him.  Fond memories of those Sabbaths.

[B/W Photodude]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

When I was a kid, my Dad (a non-believer) would take us kids rock collecting and hiking around the Arizona desert, … that time with my Dad was some of the most "spiritual" I ever spent with him.  Fond memories of those Sabbaths.

You are fortunate. I lost my dad to divorce at age seven. He was never allowed visitation or to have us kids on weekends because my "devout" SDA mom was afraid he might have us doing something wrong on the Sabbath, feed us meat, or any number of other imaginary possible sins. Much of his life the next several years were largely lost because he spent so much time looking for us. 

[phkrause]

8 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

My ex-brother-in-law is very Orthodox Jewish and they have very strict Sabbath rules. One was you could not turn things (radios,etc) on/off on the Sabbath. One time his two year old got ahold of the radio and turned it on to a rock music station with loud sound. They had to "endure" loud rock music in their house for the rest of the Sabbath!

That's pretty funny. I don't recall actually visiting any of my Jewish relatives on Shabbos when we were little kids, but we did visit on Sundays, so not sure what most did on Shabbos. My parents never told us one way or the other. My relatives, Jewish ones, do have some very strange man made rules for sure!!

[8thdaypriest]

My own memories of "church" are mostly of my Mom constantly scolding my brother to "be still". 

Sabbath School was just ok.  I remember in 4th grade, I held the record for memorizing all the quarter "Memory Verses".   I was stood up in front of the SS adult congregation to recite them all.  Guess that was their way of shaming the adults to memorize more.  lol

After my husband was baptized, he would stay out in the parking lot and talk computers with a few other computer geeks.  When I got in the car after church let out, he would tell me to give him the 5 minute summary of the sermon (which I did).  My hubby still serves Christ, and still doesn't like formal church service. 

[BlessedMan]

3 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

he would tell me to give him the 5 minute summary of the sermon (which I did).

my only question is when are you going to write a book with all of those 5 minute summaries. I would read that one.