Gynder Dysphoria?

[Gregory Matthews]

See:

https://spectrummagazine.org/views/2020/there-place-bob-and-others-her-adventist-church

 

 

[BlessedMan]

On 1/27/2020 at 8:38 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

See:

https://spectrummagazine.org/views/2020/there-place-bob-and-others-her-adventist-church

 

 

Well; I am impressed. This was actually a pretty good article. I do have questions about is it correct to call a truly "intersex born" individual as "trans?"  This was a person who actually, was physically born this way. I thought "trans" was more about the mind and whats going on in it, as opposed to being born with the physical characteristics? IDK a lot about it.

I knew a trans individual a couple years ago. Worked in a supermarket nearby. If that person was in the store; Id always go to them first if I needed to ask someone a question, because they were the most knowledgeable and friendly to approach.

I find it really sad, sick even, that we have to ask the question: "Is there a place in our church" for this person.

[phkrause]

4 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

Well; I am impressed. This was actually a pretty good article. I do have questions about is it correct to call a truly "intersex born" individual as "trans?"  This was a person who actually, was physically born this way. I thought "trans" was more about the mind and whats going on in it, as opposed to being born with the physical characteristics? IDK a lot about it.

I agree!! Really not sure how to understand this only that it seems one is in the mind the other is obviously born that way?? Satan is really doing much damage to all!!

[Gustave]

I work with 3, one of which I've known for around 20 years and is a friend. It is absolutely a mental illness and each and everyone of us is only a hairs width away from having something that could go wrong with us.  I was shocked, offended and mad when I 1st found out about my friend but over the years I came to understand that we generally look at these things from "our perspective" and think WOW, what a sick twisted perv, it's all about kinky sex, etc. 

The reality is that to the person who suffers from these types of things it not at all about sick twisted kinky sex. God looks at the heart and when I thought about it, the way I automatically assumed "the cause" of my friend transitioning, I realized it was my heart that was found lacking and probably not my friends. Not looking at situations like this with my old and normal ways is difficult for me even to this day. 

What we CAN'T do is 'celebrate dysphoria', it would be like celebrating spina bifida or bipolar disorder. We also can't attribute someone else's condition to whatever is bouncing around in our own heads. It's tough to be sure but one thing I'm convinced of is that we all need Christ and those who need Christ more are generally the ones throwing the rocks at the ones that don't fit into society as easily as we do. 

Matthew 21, 31

[Gregory Matthews]

I will suggest tha some of the issues are rooted in physical abnormalities and not in the mind.

 

There are sometimes genetic differences that are not rooted in the mind, but lie in the genetic structure of the cells.

t

[BlessedMan]

7 hours ago, Gustave said:

I was shocked, offended and mad when I 1st found out about my friend

well, this is the only part of your comment that has me wondering.  Seems out of balance with the rest of your comment?

7 hours ago, Gustave said:

What we CAN'T do is 'celebrate dysphoria'

I think its more about actually treating them the way Jesus would. Its not hard to figure out. Some won't do that because they fear being seen as giving approval of some grave "sin" and all we are told to do is:

"Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself." (Phil 2:3).

Im guessing that if we actually take this text seriously, there would be no more need for topis like this. I dont get whats so "wrong" about inviting such people to church just like we would any other family, friend, or neighbor? I am reminded of the sad question in the OP about "Is there a place in our church for...."  Having to even ask that question tells us all we need to know. IDT its even a matter of struggling to have "the right opinion" about trans people.  Its about how Jesus would have us respond.

[Gustave]

35 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

well, this is the only part of your comment that has me wondering.  Seems out of balance with the rest of your comment?

I think its more about actually treating them the way Jesus would. Its not hard to figure out. Some won't do that because they fear being seen as giving approval of some grave "sin" and all we are told to do is:

"Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself." (Phil 2:3).

Im guessing that if we actually take this text seriously, there would be no more need for topis like this. I dont get whats so "wrong" about inviting such people to church just like we would any other family, friend, or neighbor? I am reminded of the sad question in the OP about "Is there a place in our church for...."  Having to even ask that question tells us all we need to know. IDT its even a matter of struggling to have "the right opinion" about trans people.  Its about how Jesus would have us respond.

When I first found out that he was going to "transition" I thought it was "to another department" when my Boss put her hand on my shoulder and said, "no, that's not what we (the HR person was in the room with us) mean". 

I was shocked and offended because I would have thought I would have known this (as his friend and as the person who hired him) before anyone else at work. 

I was offended at the ease and readiness this was happening within the workplace too. I know a very prominent Attorney who represents Transgendered and LGBT people and he had told me that Trans individuals are, as a grouping, in the highest group for suicide. Additionally, IF the individual goes through "re-assignment surgery" the suicide risk increases again past what it was prior to otherwise healthy wise body parts being amputated. What other "treatment" calls for the amputation of healthy body parts? 

When I looked into these things what I learned was that a woman who doesn't fit the role model society says they should fit doesn't mean that the person is suffering from mental illness. Same thing apply to a male who doesn't fit into standard gender roles for males. This isn't mental illness. Body Dysphoria IS MENTAL ILLNESS. 

We don't encourage people starving themselves (because they think they are fat) by telling them that they are right & maybe they should eat a salad or take the stairs. We should show the same kindness to a man who is so distraught with their body they find a Doctor willing to amputate their healthy organs. 

Does someone suffering from an illness such as this (that they are compelled to alter their body) have a leg up on me? I think that they do, God would judge someone with a cross like that to bear different than someone like me. I'm not saying people who don't suffer these conditions are better off salvation wise, not at all. That's why I quoted the Scripture I did. 

Hope that explains things better. 

[B/W Photodude]

12 minutes ago, Gustave said:

What other "treatment" calls for the amputation of healthy body parts?

That's a no-brainer.  

That barbaric torture of newborn boys called circumcision.

The foreskin is a healthy functioning needed part of a man's anatomy.

[Gustave]

11 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

That's a no-brainer.  

That barbaric torture of newborn boys called circumcision.

The foreskin is a healthy functioning needed part of a man's anatomy.

Man was not commanded by nature to cut the foreskin of his penis any more so than man was commanded by nature to observe the Sabbath, Day of Atonement or any other Feast on the Liturgical Calendar of the Jews. These things were enjoined on Israel to tenderize them into a better state of submission. 

Isaiah 28, 13

This is one of the reasons why God terminated circumcision. I'm not clear as to why you believed this qualified as a mitigating factor in a Medical Doctor lopping off a mans penis and testicles because the man "thinks" that there shouldn't be a penis and testicles there. Unless perhaps you are coming from the camp that believes that if an individual is unthankful than God gives them up to perverse desires and body dysphoria is some sort of "divine punishment"????

I've heard some hard liner Evangelicals make this claim using Romans 1, 21-24

[BlessedMan]

Gustave; now you got me confused for sure. I have no idea what actual point you are making here.

[B/W Photodude]

52 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

That barbaric torture of newborn boys called circumcision.

https://adventistan.com/forums/topic/77093-as-nature-made-him-the-boy-who-was-raised-as-a-girl/

 

[B/W Photodude]

26 minutes ago, Gustave said:

These things were enjoined on Israel to tenderize them into a better state of submission. 

Any reference as to why God commanded Abraham and Israel to undergo circumcision is so remote that we cannot know today the reasons for it. So, any rationalization of why they were commanded to do this thing or how is just idle speculation. However, kudos to the Roman church for those times when they forbad the cutting of their boys.

Unfortunately, many Christians still mutilate their sons because they think God wants this. But do keep in mind that the type of circumcisions was changed during the Hellenic age to the period after the destruction of Jerusalem. During the Greeks years, the young men were able to appear intact and participate in the olympic games which alarmed the "wise" men to no end. You can read this in the books of the Maccabees (Apocrypha).

[Gustave]

Just now, B/W Photodude said:

Any reference as to why God commanded Abraham and Israel to undergo circumcision is so remote that we cannot know today the reasons for it. So, any rationalization of why they were commanded to do this thing or how is just idle speculation. However, kudos to the Roman church for those times when they forbad the cutting of their boys.

Unfortunately, many Christians still mutilate their sons because they think God wants this. But do keep in mind that the type of circumcisions was changed during the Hellenic age to the period after the destruction of Jerusalem. During the Greeks years, the young men were able to appear intact and participate in the olympic games which alarmed the "wise" men to no end. You can read this in the books of the Maccabees (Apocrypha).

Coming from you I'll take it as a compliment  

The old saying that even a broken clock is right twice a day is better than never being right. 

[Gustave]

21 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

Gustave; now you got me confused for sure. I have no idea what actual point you are making here.

I had earlier posted,

"What other "treatment" calls for the amputation of healthy body parts?"

In answer to my statement B/W Photodude said "circumcision". 

My point was that circumcision wasn't a "medical treatment" for anything - it was a ceremonial or ritualistic command enjoined on Israel and it's Forefathers. Had circumcision served a purpose other than ceremonial / ritualistic it stands to reason God wouldn't have terminated its practice pertaining to salvation. 

 

[B/W Photodude]

Actually, your original question:

13 hours ago, Gustave said:

What other "treatment" calls for the amputation of healthy body parts? 

was made in the context of cutting off body parts for gender reassignment!

11 hours ago, Gustave said:

My point was that circumcision wasn't a "medical treatment" for anything - it was a ceremonial or ritualistic command ...

Nothing regarding gender reassignment surgery has anything to do with ceremonial or ritualistic commands.

[Gustave]

18 minutes ago, B/W Photodude said:

Actually, your original question:

was made in the context of cutting off body parts for gender reassignment!

Nothing regarding gender reassignment surgery has anything to do with ceremonial or ritualistic commands.

You associated it with ceremonial / ritualistic commands when you cited Circumcision as akin to cutting off healthy body parts. I asked,  "what other treatment calls for...." 

You answered Circumcision implying circumcision was treatment akin to gender reassignment surgery. 

If A = B & B = C than A=C.

[BlessedMan]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

You associated it with ceremonial / ritualistic commands when you cited Circumcision as akin to cutting off healthy body parts. I asked,  "what other treatment calls for...." 

You answered Circumcision implying circumcision was treatment akin to gender reassignment surgery. 

If A = B & B = C than A=C.

Your "math" is wrong. From nothing, to nothing IS nothing.

[Gustave]

Just now, BlessedMan said:

Your "math" is wrong. From nothing, to nothing IS nothing.

You have to go back and read his answer to my post again.

 

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

You associated it with ceremonial / ritualistic commands when you cited Circumcision as akin to cutting off healthy body parts. I asked,  "what other treatment calls for...." 

You answered Circumcision implying circumcision was treatment akin to gender reassignment surgery. 

If A = B & B = C than A=C.

I think you need to go back and read the thread again. I posted as I said. I associated it with ceremonial after YOU brought up the ceremonial. Methinks the argument is starting to go in circles so someone can be right!

[BlessedMan]

14 hours ago, Gustave said:

My point was that circumcision wasn't a "medical treatment" for anything -

well, I think most people realize it has been a designated "medical treatment" for years, and B/W is more interested in talking about why on earth it should be. No religious talking points are really needed for this one IMO

[Gustave]