The Sunday Question

[BlessedMan]

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Rev 12:10  And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The Sunday Question is a suite of viruses that are infecting the world, and the church, equally.

"Sundays" is not just one doctrine; rather it is a suite or family of beliefs, to be found around the world in most religions, both Catholic and Protestants.

Perhaps the first point to be made here could be in the form of a question?

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Does anyone know, really know, from scripture, what the Sunday question is?

 

[Gustave]

Sunday was simply the day that the early Christians "assembled themselves together" on. It would be unheard of for Jews to take up a collection on Shabbat, it didn't happen back then or even today. https://classroom.synonym.com/the-etiquette-for-protestants-visiting-a-synagogue-12085414.html

This is one of the reasons we see that the Apostolic Christians assembled on a day other than what the Jews met on. Scripture is very clear that Christians should NOT fail to gather "themselves" together. 

"And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

Ourselves = "We or Us Personally".  See Strong's G1438

In other words St. Paul "included himself" as being required to not forsake the assembly "of Christians specifically". A Christian attending a Synagogue would not qualify.  

 

"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem."

In other words the Christians were assembling THEMSELVES on the 1st day of the week "AS A CHURCH" and just like happens today, a collection was taking up AT THAT ASSEMBLY. As the below Scripture says - when Christians assembled themselves together THAT WAS THE CHURCH.

"For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it,  for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized.  When you meet together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat.  For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal, and one is hungry and another is drunk.  What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not."

While it's true that there are indeed examples of early Christians going to the Synagogue or Temple on the Sabbath this act was never a case of Christians assembling themselves together. Can you imagine Paul or any of the Apostles for that matter going to the Synagogue and holding Mass? That wouldn't have gone over - at all.

 

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread".

[BlessedMan]

2 hours ago, Gustave said:

While it's true that there are indeed examples of early Christians going to the Synagogue or Temple on the Sabbath this act was never a case of Christians assembling themselves together. Can you imagine Paul or any of the Apostles for that matter going to the Synagogue and holding Mass? That wouldn't have gone over - at all.

You have simply recounted what The Romanist Colonizing Church teaches. But you have not answered to the OP. What IS "the Sunday Question?"  I was just asking this question of Adventists, maybe I should have explained that better. But others are welcome too, I suppose. The text you quote from Hebrews has nothing to do with any particular day of the week. This post is a very sad reflection on the apologetic meal train.

[Gustave]

13 minutes ago, BlessedMan said:

You have simply recounted what The Romanist Colonizing Church teaches. But you have not answered to the OP. What IS "the Sunday Question?"  I was just asking this question of Adventists, maybe I should have explained that better. But others are welcome too, I suppose. The text you quote from Hebrews has nothing to do with any particular day of the week. This post is a very sad reflection on the apologetic meal train.

The Hebrews text simply says that Christians should "not forsake the assembling of themselves together". Other than Sunday, what other day of the week do you find in the New Testament where Christians "assembled themselves together" to drink the blood and eat the flesh of the Lord & take up a collection? 

[BlessedMan]

5 minutes ago, Gustave said:

The Hebrews text simply says that Christians should "not forsake the assembling of themselves together". Other than Sunday, what other day of the week do you find in the New Testament where Christians "assembled themselves together" to drink the blood and eat the flesh of the Lord & take up a collection? 

Its starting to look like you will not be addressing the question in the OP. What is The Sunday question going to be. (for Adventists, and everyone else?)

[Gustave]

I don’t understand the question. Other than Scripture saying it’s a sin to miss church on Sunday so why do so many people do it?

 

[BlessedMan]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

I don’t understand the question. Other than Scripture saying it’s a sin to miss church on Sunday so why do so many people do it?

 

correct. :)

[BlessedMan]

On 4/24/2020 at 10:55 AM, BlessedMan said:

The Sunday Question is a suite of viruses that are infecting the world, and the church, equally.

"Sundays" is not just one doctrine; rather it is a suite or family of beliefs, to be found around the world in most religions, both Catholic and Protestants.

Perhaps the first point to be made here could be in the form of a question?

The Sunday movement is now making its way in darkness. The leaders are concealing the true issue, and many who unite in the movement do not themselves see whither the undercurrent is tending. Its professions are mild and apparently Christian, but when it shall speak it will reveal the spirit of the dragon. It is our duty to do all in our power to avert the threatened danger. We should endeavor to disarm prejudice by placing ourselves in a proper light before the people. We should bring before them the real question at issue, thus interposing the most effectual protest against measures to restrict liberty of conscience. We should search the Scriptures and be able to give the reason for our faith. Says the prophet: "The wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."  {5T 452.1}

WHEN Jesus returns; what will His "Sunday Question" be?

Edited April 25, 2020 by BlessedMan

[Gustave]

It didn't appear to be making its way in darkness in the New Testament, or was it? 

Was Saint Paul "revealing the spirit of the Dragon" when he ordered the Corinthians to do the same thing he ordered the Church in Galatia to do? 

"Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come". 1 Corinthians 16,1

When Paul showed up at "the location" where all the Christians in that area would gather - it was on the 1st day of the week - as per "the order".  I'm failing to see the sinister nature of this that Ellen White purported? Remember, Ellen White also agreed that God

"is not Jesus Christ"

&

"There is only one God, the Father".... August 29, 1878 Sabbath Herald, Volume 52 No. 10

There have been numerous SDA scholars who have stated that Ellen White was mistaken or confused about Trinity and so they don't add much weight to the clearly anti-Trinitarian positions she took throughout her life. Is it not possible that Ellen could have also been confused or mistaken about the Sabbath? I understand and appreciate that SDA's have a special devotion to the Sabbath days and I'm all for SDA's continuing to keep that level of devotion. 

All I'm hoping to accomplish here is to provide some logical reasons as to why SDA's shouldn't be concerned that there is a dark agenda or "dragon spirit" associated with Christians assembling themselves together on the 1st day of the week. 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

*  Yes, Ellen White grew in spiritual knowledge as a human, in the same manner that all of us must grow.

*  Yes, Ellen white was not Infallible.

*  Yes, the Bible, in SDA understanding, is the ultimate source for spiritual truth and knowledge about God and God's plan to save us for eternity.

*   Worship of God, on any day of the week, is not sin.  As I have stated, with the blessing of the General Conference, I have conducted many worship services on a Sunday morning.

*  Contrary to what many of us might say, the focus of the Sabbath commandment is not on worship.  Rather, the Biblical focus is on the totality of a special day that has been set apart by God as a time dedicated to getting to know God better and in growing in our relationship with God.

*  All to often, we SDAs have neglected that focus and have solely seen the Sabbath in the light of a couple of hours of worship.  As we do that, we are no better than those who argue with us about the day.

 

[BlessedMan]

3 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

with the blessing of the General Conference, I have conducted many worship services on a Sunday

I am wondering why anyone would need their "blessing" to do so?? That is one good "Sunday Question;" not the one I am aiming at re the OP but certainly worth exploring here.

4 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

All to often, we SDAs have neglected that focus and have solely seen the Sabbath in the light of a couple of hours of worship.  As we do that, we are no better than those who argue with us about the day

Amen!

[Gregory Matthews]

Blessed Man:  All Federal chaplains operate with the blessing of the denomination that they represent.  If that "blessing" is cancelled, the Federal chaplain is terminated.

 

[BlessedMan]

5 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

The Sunday movement is now making its way in darkness. The leaders are concealing the true issue, and many who unite in the movement do not themselves see whither the undercurrent is tending. Its professions are mild and apparently Christian, but when it shall speak it will reveal the spirit of the dragon. It is our duty to do all in our power to avert the threatened danger. We should endeavor to disarm prejudice by placing ourselves in a proper light before the people. We should bring before them the real question at issue, thus interposing the most effectual protest against measures to restrict liberty of conscience. We should search the Scriptures and be able to give the reason for our faith. Says the prophet: "The wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."  {5T 452.1}

WHEN Jesus returns; what will His "Sunday Question" be?

Gustave; this is what this topic is about.

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, BlessedMan said:

Gustave; this is what this topic is about.

The answer to the question is conjectural, its therefore a conundrum. 

I see, Ellen quotes Daniel 12, 10 and associates it with the Sabbath teaching. Daniel is presented with information even he doesn't understand that is to be sealed up until the end of days BUT Ellen was given the prophetic key to understanding and has informed SDA's that the secret is all about the Sabbath.

[Gregory Matthews]

NOTE:  For those who wonder about my use of the term "Blessing,"  my reference was to a formal document that is called an "endorsement."   Federal chaplains are required to be endorsed by a recognized denomination,  Under the law, they can not be  hired without that endorsement.  In addition, if that endorsement is withdrawn, the chaplain is immediately terminated, if that chaplain is neither hospitalized nor subject to a criminal investigation.

In my professional life as a Army chaplain I have seen the Roman Catholic Church withdraw the endorsement of a priest.

The SDA denomination has also withdrawn the endorsement of SDA chaplains.  However,   I have more often seen the SDA denomination work with an individual chaplain to obtain a situation in which the SDA chaplain resigned from Federal employment and therefore did not have the endorsement withdrawn. 

The bottom line is:  All Federal chaplain serve at the pleasure of their denomination.  The denomination can terminate the Federal employment, as a chaplain, of that person.

As a point of information the Federal Form currently used by the U.S. Military is DD Form 2088.  It may be viewed at:

 https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/forms/dd/dd2088.pdf

To be clear about one point on the above form:  Ordination is not required, regardless of what you think the document says.  A Federal court  ruled, many years ago, that a requirement for ordination violated the Constitution.  The SDA denomination has endorsed females for the military chaplaincy.  Those females have been Commissioned, not ordained, and that has satisfied the requirements of the above document.

 

 

[Gustave]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

NOTE:  For those who wonder about my use of the term "Blessing,"  my reference was to a formal document that is called an "endorsement."   Federal chaplains are required to be endorsed by a recognized denomination,  Under the law, they can not be  hired without that endorsement.  In addition, if that endorsement is withdrawn, the chaplain is immediately terminated, if that chaplain is neither hospitalized nor subject to a criminal investigation.

In my professional life as a Army chaplain I have seen the Roman Catholic Church withdraw the endorsement of a priest.

The SDA denomination has also withdrawn the endorsement of SDA chaplains.  However,   I have more often seen the SDA denomination work with an individual chaplain to obtain a situation in which the SDA chaplain resigned from Federal employment and therefore did not have the endorsement withdrawn. 

The bottom line is:  All Federal chaplain serve at the pleasure of their denomination.  The denomination can terminate the Federal employment, as a chaplain, of that person.

As a point of information the Federal Form currently used by the U.S. Military is DD Form 2088.  It may be viewed at:

 https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/forms/dd/dd2088.pdf

To be clear about one point on the above form:  Ordination is not required, regardless of what you think the document says.  A Federal court  ruled, many years ago, that a requirement for ordination violated the Constitution.  The SDA denomination has endorsed females for the military chaplaincy.  Those females have been Commissioned, not ordained, and that has satisfied the requirements of the above document.

 

 

I bet the Female Chaplain's do a good job in that capacity. In time of war the Chaplains go right into the thick of it. I wasn't aware of much of this. Thanks Gregory!

[Gregory Matthews]

Most people are not aware.  In addition drnominations have to apply for recognition in order to officially sign the DD2088.  Signeture authority is limited to specific persons in each denominations.

In the SDA Church it is limited to ACM officials.  In the Roman Cstholic Church it id limited to the Military Ordinate.  

As a point of interest in one position that I had I regularly accesses the Military Ordinate website and I printed off current copies of the Priests Manual which informed priests of church expectations for thier ministry.

[BlessedMan]

On 4/25/2020 at 4:33 PM, BlessedMan said:

We should bring before them the real question at issue,

any SDAs want to venture an answer to this? What IS going to be "The Sunday Question" when Jesus returns?

[pierrepaul]

12 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

any SDAs want to venture an answer to this? What IS going to be "The Sunday Question" when Jesus returns?

IMO, there will be no "Sunday Question". The issue of the perennity of the Jewish Sabbath is sufficiently ambiguous in the New Testament texts that reasonable sincere and pious people can prayerfully study and come to different conclusions. Therefore the issue of esteeming one day over another cannot be any sort of final test of faith.

[BlessedMan]

2 hours ago, pierrepaul said:

IMO, there will be no "Sunday Question". The issue of the perennity of the Jewish Sabbath is sufficiently ambiguous in the New Testament texts that reasonable sincere and pious people can prayerfully study and come to different conclusions. Therefore the issue of esteeming one day over another cannot be any sort of final test of faith.

Well, you must have missed the boat because you were waiting for the train. There is already a "Sunday Question." (more later)  But there will be a very particular "Sunday Question" asked by Jesus when He returns. Of course, one doesnt HAVE to call it a "Sunday Question." That wouldn't bother me at all. But the question WILL be asked.

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by BlessedMan

[pierrepaul]

I guess this line of inquiry is too cryptic for me. Around my house the Sunday question usually concerns what we're going to prepare for Sunday breakfast. The next big Sunday question is what to put on the shopping list before I leave for the grocery store.

[thx4mercy]

8 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

But there will be a very particular "Sunday Question" asked by Jesus when He returns.......But the question WILL be asked.

 

Is it something along the lines of "Whom do you serve?"   or   "What have you done to help give the warning message?"

I've read and re-read several of those sentences in the quote from 5T that you gave, and I just can't quite wrap my head around what she is saying.  I'm really curious what is on your mind as to the "Sunday question."

[BlessedMan]

On 4/25/2020 at 10:09 PM, BlessedMan said:

We should bring before them the real question at issue, thus interposing the most effectual protest against measures to restrict liberty of conscience

THIS is "The Sunday Question"

Quote

Luke 18:8  I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?" (NKJV)

 

[Gustave]

4 hours ago, BlessedMan said:

THIS is "The Sunday Question"

 

That would indicate there wouldn't be mobs of people on earth that believe (had faith) they need to persecute Saturday worshipers because they wouldn't convert over to become Sunday Worshipers - wouldn't it? Scripture seems to indicate that when Jesus comes it will be at a point when generally people don't expect it, as in things will be business as usual with marriage, eating and drinking, etc. 

In other words, the masses will not have "faith" , that's why Luke 18,8 poses the question if Christ will even find it "on the earth". Think about Sodom & the ration of righteous people in that City, that will probably be about the ratio of things at the 2nd Coming. 

[BlessedMan]

Luke 18:8 is also "the warning message," and "the testing truth..."