Dr. Shane Posted June 18, 2006 Share Posted June 18, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> How? By saying he didn't have them, by letting in UN weapons inspectors who said he didn't have them, and by not having them? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Saddam led the inspectors on a wild goose chase as if he had something to hide. And the inspectors never claimed Saddam didn't have WMDs. He sent people out as "defectors" claiming they had knowledge of Saddams WMD programs. Officially he would say he didn't have them but then he would let it leak out that he did. He fooled the world to his own demise. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 18, 2006 Administrators Share Posted June 18, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Shane said: It is simple. Self-defense is a justifiable reason for war... <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> No Shane, here's simple, directly from the One that Christians claim to follow - "Blessed are the peacemakers", "Turn the other cheek", "Love your enemies", "All who use the sword will die by the sword", "Do not resist an evil person" "Peter, put away your sword" "Forgive, even as you are forgiven..." Tom <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/DOVE.gif" alt="" /> Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 " For I am the Lord, I change not" Mal. 3:6 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" 2 Tim. 3:16 Let's not forget the Old Testament. Let's take the Scripture in total and not just little pieces out of context. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 19, 2006 Administrators Share Posted June 19, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Shane said: " For I am the Lord, I change not" Mal. 3:6 ...Let's not forget the Old Testament. Let's take the Scripture in total and not just little pieces out of context. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> So Shane answer these simple questions. What exactly was the whole context of the quotes of Jesus that I posted above? How exactly are they out of context? In that context in which Jesus spoke those words, do you think the Jews understood him to mean the Roman enemies were who they should love, turn the other cheek for, go the second mile for, forgive? Is Jesus the unchanging Lord spoken of in Mal. 3:6? Was Jesus ignorant of the OT when he made the unequivocal declarations I quoted above? If he was the unchanging Lord of the OT, why do you think he prefaced many of these sayings by saying "you have heard that it is said",quoting the OT, and then declaring, "But I tell you...? Was he just kidding around when he said those things? Did he only mean them to be of relevance to a few good men within ear shot on that mountain top? How exactly do you reconcile those statements with the OT? with the idea of "just war"? With how Christians today should relate to enemies? And since you are insisting that we not forget the OT and "take Scripture in total" are you prepared to follow the directive to stone your son if he rebels against you? To stone your wife or daughter if she gets caught sleeping around? This is only a small start if we take your suggestion to its logical conclusion. And since you seem to think the OT apparently must be instructive for making war against our enemies, shall we destroy every single Iraqi, man, woman and child as well as all of their animals, just as God commanded Israel to do? Are you ready to fight that good fight? Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Jesus spoke of our personal relationships with each other. How do we treat our family members? How do we treat the cashier in the local retail store? How do we treat other customers standing in line? How do we treat other drivers on the road? How do we treat other members of an internet forum? Jesus was focusing on the interpersonal relationships. It is out of context to take His advise about interpersonal relationships and apply it to international relationships (relationships between nations). A government has a moral duty to protect its citizens. If an enemy attacks it and kills hundreds of its citizens and the government's response is to "turn the other cheek" so another attack results and more citizens are killed, the government has failed its moral duty to its citizens. A nation that "turns the other cheek" will soon be conquored by another nation which does not practice such lofty ideals. The Old Testement clearly justifies self-defense. The Old Testement also allows nations to go to war. God, in fact, commanded the nation of Israel to go to war against its neighbors on vairous occations. The God of the Old Testement is the same as the God of the New Testement. I will not defend the Iraq War as being a justified war. It may be and it may not be. My point is that there is such a thing as a justifiable war and a Christian nation may, at times, find itself in such a war. So we should not oppose war soley on the grounds of it being war. That would be like opposing divorce just because it is divorce. Sometimes there are Biblical grounds for divorce and sometimes there are Biblical grounds for war. God hates both. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> "Blessed are the peacemakers" <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Western Europe has been at peace since 1945. Who were the peacemakers? Stanley Baldwin Neville Chamberlain Winston Churchill Vidkun Quisling Henri-Philippe Petain Charles De Gualle Josef Stalin with the non-agression pact of 1939 Josef Stalin with the Red Army 1941-1945 Define peace: absence of military conflict absence of violence absence of crime absence of hatred presence of harmony presence of freedom presence of morality presence of love total security total liberty other (define in 5 words or fewer) Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 19, 2006 Moderators Share Posted June 19, 2006 Others will likely disagree, but I think the argument that all war everywhere anytime is unBiblical is full of holes. There are likely instances in which war is necessary, though as Shane points out, still evil. Just a question: assume for a moment that Saddam actually did have WMDs. Had he made recent, credible threats to use them against the US? I do not believe so. So in what sense was the attack on Iraq self-defense? Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 20, 2006 Share Posted June 20, 2006 The situation in Iraq was full of intelligence failures. If the intelligence community would have been at their best, 9/11 would have never happened in the first place. After 9/11 it became undeniable that terrorists posed a threat to the US. Many forgien intelligence services believed Iraq had WMDs (including Iraq's) and then Russia came in with intelligence that there was a threat against the US from Iraq by means of terrorists. I understand why the decision was made and had I been in the White House with the same information I suspect I would have made the same decision. We didn't know about the oil-for-food scandel at the time. Given that scandel was in place, Saddam had members of the Security Council on his payroll. That made the situation all that much more complicated. Saddam did have plans to resume his WMD programs after sanctions were lifted. In 1996 he discussed using terrorists with WMDs to attack the US. So he was a threat, just not an urgent one like we believed him to be. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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