Dr. Shane Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 Santorum: We Found the WMD </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Congressman Hoekstra and I are here today to say that we have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, chemical weapons. … Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq’s pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Document Details WMD Recovered In Iraq, Santorum Says </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> According to Santorum, "That means in addition to the 500, there are filled and unfilled munitions still believed to exist within the country." <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> GOP, Democrats maneuver for advantage in Iraq debate </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Santorum and Hoekstra released a newly declassified military intelligence report that said coalition forces have found 500 munitions in Iraq that contained degraded sarin or mustard nerve agents, produced before the 1991 Gulf War. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060622/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iraq </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Santorum and Hoekstra released a newly declassified military intelligence report that said coalition forces have found 500 munitions in Iraq that contained degraded sarin or mustard nerve agents, produced before the 1991 Gulf War. But a defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said the weapons were not considered likely to be dangerous because of their age. Also, Democrats said a lengthy 2005 report from the top U.S. weapons inspector contemplated that such munitions would be found. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Are there any Republicans in this administration who can open their mouths without either lying or seriously distorting the truth? /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 I don't see any distortion of the truth in the story. The WMDs are old and it appears they were made prior to 1991 BUT, remember, these are the same WMDs Saddam said he had destroyed. Clearly he had not destroyed them. Due to the age, it is not likely the mustard gas is still deadly. The sarin gas could, however, still be deadly in the hands of terrorists. Intelligence reports believed Saddam had active WMD programs prior to the US-led invasion. That now seems highly unlikely. The multi-nation, pre-war intelligence was bad. This discovery does not validate that bad intelligence. However it does show that Saddam lied to the UN inspectors and the Security Council in regard to his pre-1991 WMD stockpiles. He did not destroy all of them and it is quite possible that we will discover more. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Are there any Republicans in this administration... <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> BTW: Santorum and Hoekstra are not part of "this administration". The administration has not officially commented on this story. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> these are the same WMDs Saddam said he had destroyed <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> You distort the truth. This is only a small fraction of the ones Saddam said he had destroyed. They had HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of these shells, which were used in a VERY ACTIVE war with Iran. This 500 is a very small fraction - the rest, apparently, did get destroyed. It is not surprising that a few got misplaced, and were not found and destroyed. The UN weapons inspectors had already commented on this being likely. Who did GWB prefer to believe? He WANTED to believe Saddam's enemies - Charlabi et al - and they wanted to get Saddam ousted, so they told GWB what he wanted to he. In short, GWB was conned. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 Saddam claimed he didn't have WMDs. We now know he did. Saddam claimed he had destoyed all the WMDs he had before the first Gulf War. We now know he did not. No spin there. Those are the clear and undisputable facts of the matter. What is interesting to me is that the Bush Administration has known about this for sometime and did not reveal it. This news only came about because of a senator and congressman went browsing through some declassified documents. The White House has yet to make an official comment on it. It was not the UN inspectors that believed Saddam still had WMDs from pre-1991. It was the Iraq Survey Group (ISG) headed by David Kay. The ISG suspected Saddam still had pre-1991 WMDs and that they would be found given time. It now appears that many of them have been. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted June 22, 2006 Share Posted June 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Saddam claimed he had destoyed all the WMDs he had before the first Gulf War. We now know he did not. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> There is NO evidence that these 500 shells were DELIBERATELY overlooked. Like I said, there were 100's of thousands of such shells. You are clutching at rotten straws. All this line of argument leads to is that Bush really was looking to pick a fight, and is now trying to win the next election by using the current main stream Republican strategy - lying. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted June 22, 2006 Moderators Share Posted June 22, 2006 ...because these 500 WMDs CLEARLY do not constitute a clear and present danger that would justify a pre-emptive attack on a sovereign nation. Yes, I guess semantically it's possible to say 'The claim that we found no WMDs is not true'. I'll accept that. But that's a long step from 'we found enough WMDs to justify the war'. And that truth means the war remains unjustified and unjust. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted June 22, 2006 Moderators Share Posted June 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> The administration has not officially commented on this story. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> It obvious that this find is not the WMD that Rummy knew were in and around Baghdad becasue they would be trumpeting this as a major triumph. The White House is silent because they know this is exactly what others, in this thread, have suggested. This is just fodder for the right wing base the chew on. This administration's "groupies" remind me of those who surrounded the Major(former uk prime minister) administration in 1996/97 just before they were soundly defeated in the General Election. One ridiclous lie/distortion after another. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 22, 2006 Author Share Posted June 22, 2006 From what I understand, this isn't a single "find". I do not believe they found 500 WMDs all in one location although I could be wrong. It is a mistake to minimize this especially by saying Saddam could have overlooked these WMDs. Careful inventory is taken of WMDs. Does anyone think the US has WMDs floating around in areas we are unaware of? Of course not. Any government with WMDs knows exactly how many they have and where they are located. From what I understand, some of these were in roll-off shipping containers. That would have allowed Saddam to move them from place to place quite easily. As I stated earlier, these do not validate the bad intelligence. Both the Clinton and Bush Administrations believed that Saddam continued WMD production throughout the 1990s. That seems highly unlikely. However Saddam did hold back on some of the WMDs he had prior to the first Gulf War and lied about them. Anyone that thinks Saddam somehow overlooked or forgot about these WMDs is either nieve or very gullable. I think the reason the White House isn't making a big deal out of these is because they are not the WMDs they believed were there. However Saddam could have given these to terrorists so it isn't as if these WMDs posed no threat. Yet, that said, it seems the intelligence reports that warned us of Saddam attacking the US with WMDs was outdated. News stories like this make me all the more happy I am in the middle of the political spectrum. I can look at the story and say, yes it is significant but not that significant. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Paul Harvey spoke about this today. It is interesting. It should take some of the swash out of Saddam's buckle. Bush isn't as bad as his haters wish him to be. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 23, 2006 Author Share Posted June 23, 2006 I saw a discussion about this today and they stated these WMDs have been found in small quantities in various places. Some have even been found by contractors. There is a story going around that these were buried and lost during the Iran/Iraq War but that is a bit misleading. These 500 WMDs are not all from one location. If Saddam didn't know where these WMDs were it reflects very poorly on him. He, himself, had insurgents trying to overthrow him. He was hardly in a position where he could afford to have WMDs floating around that were unaccounted for. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted June 23, 2006 Moderators Share Posted June 23, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> News stories like this make me all the more happy I am in the middle of the political spectrum. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> This is why I love CA ! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Shane said: If Saddam didn't know where these WMDs were it reflects very poorly on him. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Hey maybe he was a macro-manager like Bush!!!! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Byers, N.D. Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Hi Shane, I have always believed that there have been WMDs just about everyone did from Clinton to Bush and other countries too. I thought of it this way: if we can look out into space with the Hubble telescope and can see how many miles away??? So now the US can't make something to zoom in and see exactly what every country is doing? Sure they can and I believe that they can't release that info because then everyone will know the capabilites of the US which could cause them to be more secretive or they might complain about it. Obviously I can't prove what I'm saying but it's just something I believe to be so. Norman Quote The unconditional pardon of sin never has been, and never will be. PP 522 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I repent for having wasted time on this thread. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted June 24, 2006 Share Posted June 24, 2006 20-hail pentagons for Ed. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 2, 2006 Share Posted July 2, 2006 From the comments section of your URL- [:"green"] “The weapons did not exist, we’ve got to deal with that. Anyone out there holding - as I gather Prime Minister Blair has recently said - the prospect that, in fact, the Iraq Survey Group is going to unmask actual weapons of mass destruction, are really delusional,” - Former US weapons inspector David Kay “It was a surprise to me then, it remains a surprise to me now, that we have not uncovered weapons. It’s not for lack of trying. We’ve been to virtually every ammunition supply point between the Kuwaiti border and Baghdad, but they’re simply not there.” - Lt. Gen. James Conway, commander of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force [/] Rick Santorum is up for re-election this year...He's making hay....this stuff is worthless...Take your facts from people empowered to look, not those out for a political agenda.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 2, 2006 Author Share Posted July 2, 2006 We are talking about apples and oranges. The apples are the WMDs that existed before 1991 that Saddam claimed he destroyed. The oranges are the WMDs that Saddam led the world to believe he had when he ran the inspectors out in 1998 and afterwards. We now know he did have some of the apples and it appears likely that he was lying. Although there is the possibility that he was a highly, incompetant dictator that let the WMDs fall out of his control into the hands of who knows who. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> The apples are the WMDs that existed before 1991 that Saddam claimed he destroyed. The oranges are the WMDs that Saddam led the world to believe he had when he ran the inspectors out in 1998 and afterwards. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Shane, those are NOT WMD...those are chemical weapons that the US gave to Saddam...WE gave those weapons to him...I have documented this before, and since I am paying for the internet, it shouldnt take you a long time to find the documentation yourself.... As I have said, Representative Rick, is making political hay.... <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/catfight.gif" alt="" /> Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 3, 2006 Author Share Posted July 3, 2006 Rick Santorum is a senator, not a representative. While he may be spinning this information to serve his goals, that doesn't change the information. The WMDs that were found are mustard gas and sarin. Those are WMDs - no spin there. Saddam claimed he had destroyed them - no spin there. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted July 3, 2006 Share Posted July 3, 2006 Shane, I suggest you go and look at the last scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark. The FACT is that Bush said "we KNOW where they are". The UN Weapons Inspectors said "in that case TELL US" Bush couldn't, because [:"red"]BUSH LIED[/] - HE DID NOT KNOW WHERE THEY WERE AND HE KNEW HE DID NOT KNOW WHERE THEY WERE. He was bluffing, and his bluff has cost the nation hundreds of billions of dollars, and has made the world a less safe place, and has cost us a huge amount of credibility. This is undoubtably the worst administration in my adult life. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 4, 2006 Author Share Posted July 4, 2006 Sounds like a case of selective memory. The Bush Administration believed the weapons and WMD labs were mobile. The weapons inspectors suspected there were no weapons (we now know there indeed were WMDs) but were not sure. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 4, 2006 Author Share Posted July 4, 2006 Let's read this news article closely: Hans Blix doubts Iraq has weapons of mass destruction April 03, 2003 The US invaded in March 2003 so this article was right after the invation. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Chief United Nations Weapons Inspector Hans Blix has expressed doubt over whether Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> "Expressed doubt" that kind of sounds like he wasn't sure but tended to doubt there were WMDs. That doesn't sound like he was sure there were no WMDs. (Remember: we have found 500 WMDs that Hans Blix missed) </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> In the interview, Blix pointed out that almost two weeks into the war, no WMDs have been found. But he added that the US-led coalition has an advantage in looking for banned weapons. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> He pointed out "the US-led coalition has an advantage". That sounds like he is preparing an excuse in case the US finds the WMDs that he missed (which we did). </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Asked which WMDs he feared most, Blix said, "I'd think that in terms of military use, probably mustard gas and sarin… these are the things that they used in the war with Iran. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Wow! Mustard gas and sarin. Those are exactly the WMDs we have found - 500 of them. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> But Blix said he did not believe Iraq would use such weapons even if it had them. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> "even if it had them"??? Was Blix making room for the posability that Iraq didn't destroy all of its pre-1991 WMDs? It sounds that way. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> "My speculation is that since Iraq has denied having these weapons, if they were to use them, then the whole world would say, 'Well, they were liars.' Then many would also consider that the war is justified," he said. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Wow! Blix says that if they were found to have the WMDs (like the 500 we found) then they would be liars and the war would be justified. By golly... may Rick Santorum should get Hans Blix to be his campaign manager. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 I did a quick google on this story....Can't find anything coroborating this story....It's primary source is Sentator Rick and the intellegence director who was appointed by Bush.... [:"green"] Michael D. Maples holds the rank of Lieutenant General (LTG) in the U.S. Army and currently serves as the 16th Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), appointed on November 4, 2005. He received his third star on November 29th. Maples also commands the Joint Functional Component Command for Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance (JFCC-ISR) for the United States Strategic Command (USSTRATCOM). Maples formally served as the Vice Director of Management of the Joint Staff.[1][/] Sorry, lack of information and cooraborating evidence smells of a republican set up.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted July 4, 2006 Share Posted July 4, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Wow! Mustard gas and sarin. Those are exactly the WMDs we have found - 500 of them <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Let me get this straight. You think that we went to war in Iraq because they possessed 500 aging chemical artillery shells that even the Iraqis could not find, and whose contents are so old that they are probably duds? This is yet another explanation that shows that the Bush Administration is the worst US administration in the last 30+ years, and possibly ever. At $200 Million per shell, it is a typical example of Bush administrations' squandering of money. At 50 lives per shell, it would have been less costly in human lives to detonate them in a city. Ask the 1000 seriously-injured US soldiers per shell whether they think it was a good deal. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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