Mr Paul Cann

[Paul]

The earth is flat 

[Theophilus]

Sorry. Did you join just to say that?

[Paul]

5 hours ago, Theophilus said:

Sorry. Did you join just to say that?

I feel this is a very important matter knowing GODS creation for what it is and NOT what ‘they’ say it is. 

[Theophilus]

Can you post your evidence?

[Paul]

4 hours ago, Theophilus said:

Can you post your evidence?

Before I do, can we get one thing straight: do we take the bible and GODS word literally or is it metaphorical? Not including revelations or prophecy  

[Gregory Matthews]

It is not one exclusive of thee other.  A literal reading of the text will recognize all of the literary styles present in the writing.  Metaphor is one literary style occasionally present in the Bible.

 

[Paul]

7 hours ago, Theophilus said:

Can you post your evidence?

Before I do, can we get one thing straight: do we take the bible and GODS word literally or is it metaphorical? Not including revelations or prophecy  

[Paul]

Give me an example of a metaphorical reading from the bible excluding revelations and prophecy 

[Gregory Matthews]

NOTE:  You exclude revelations from your list of metaphors.  The entire Bible is a revelation.  So, on that basis, you asked for an example of a metaphor that is in the Bible but not in the Bible--logically impossible.

 

There  are hundreds (thousands) of metaphors in the Bible and you ask for only one!

*  Proverbs 13:14  The teaching of the wise is a fountain of life,. . .

*  Psalm 23:1  The Lord (God) is a shepherd

*  John 6:55  The flesh of Jesus is real food and his blood is real drink.

*  John 8:12 Jesus is the light of the world.

 

 

[Paul]

51 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

NOTE:  You exclude revelations from your list of metaphors.  The entire Bible is a revelation.  So, on that basis, you asked for an example of a metaphor that is in the Bible but not in the Bible--logically impossible.

 

There  are hundreds (thousands) of metaphors in the Bible and you ask for only one!

*  Proverbs 13:14  The teaching of the wise is a fountain of life,. . .

*  Psalm 23:1  The Lord (God) is a shepherd

*  John 6:55  The flesh of Jesus is real food and his blood is real drink.

*  John 8:12 Jesus is the light of the world.

 

 

Give me an example of a metaphorical reading from the bible excluding revelations and prophecy 

[Paul]

Fair point sorry. Ok the bible talks (KJV) the sun moves. The heliocentric (taken from Helios sun worship interesting fact) belief says the earth moves around the sun, so how can the sun move if the earth rotates around the sun?

Sun stops moving: Joshua 10: 12-14

Habakkuk 3:11

how can the sun stop moving if we are spinning around it?
 

I have more this is the beginning  

[Gregory Matthews]

As to the Habakkuk passage:  It it a prayer that a human prayed to God.  It reflects the understanding of that human.  It is not intended to present a reality.  The Bible often presents humans as they are, to include their belief system.

As to the Joshua passage, this one is much more complex:

*  In part it probably presents the view of the human.  From the human view, the sun probably looked like it had stopped. 

*  As to what had actually happened, we do not have a good answer. 

[Paul]

Fair point sorry. Ok the bible talks (KJV) the sun moves. The heliocentric (taken from Helios sun worship interesting fact) belief says the earth moves around the sun, so how can the sun move if the earth rotates around the sun?

Sun stops moving: Joshua 10: 12-14

Habakkuk 3:11

how can the sun stop moving if we are spinning around it?
 

I have more this is the beginning  

[Paul]

Now I have you questioning a verse in the bible. Deuteronomy 29:29 GOD reveals to us what we NEED to know not what we THINK we should know therefore, GODS word is meant to be understood. So either the verse is a lie or it is not, I go personally go with the latter. Joshua 10:11-12 GOD commanded the sun and the moon to stand still and for you to not have an answer for this means you are doubting these verses which GOD did not intend. If we are spinning around a sun then this verse would be impossible, and means the earth stood still. But this is not what is said, so we must think logically and rationally. The jesuits run this realm and they tell us what they want us to know not what we need to know therefore it is them who teach us the Big Bang and the heliocentric model. If one verse is brought into question the whole validity of the bible falls apart and I know in my heart this can’t be right. GOD teaches us not to understand mans science but GODS, and rightly so to in an age of pure deception. So read it and think again. GOD did this action in front of the whole state of Israel lots of whitenesses so GOD lying?? NO of course not!!! So think again please. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Paul, thank you for illustrating previous point that your major problem is you instance on an absolute either or.  In this case you insist that I either accept that the verse says X or that I doubt the validity of Scripture.

In my experience, I have learned many times over the years that I do not have a perfect understanding of what Scripture says.  When I graduated from college I thought that I could then write a statement of belief that was final and would never change.  I was wrong.  The Holy Spirit had more to teach me that I realized.  Over the years, I have been taught much.  I expect to be taught more over whatever years I have left to live.

In brief:  I believe that the Bible is an accurate revelation of whatever God want to teach us.  However, I do not believe that I fully understand everything that God wants me to learn and I do believe that I have more to learn.

Your comments to me presents yourself as being one who knows it all.  I acknowledge that other statements that you have made present yourself as one who is willing to learn and does not know it all.  So, you are not consistent in the manner in which you present yourself.

  As you point out, I did express doubt.  Your statement to the effect that I expressed doubt in the validity of the Bible was false.  It was am expression of doubt in my understanding of the Bible.  I consider it reasonable to believe that there are areas of the Bible in which I do not have a final, complete understanding,.  Just as I also believe that you do not have such, even if you think that you do.

As to some of the responses that could be made:

*  The Hebrew word that has been translated as "stand still" in the KJV English can be translated as "be motionless."  But, that is not the only manner in which it can be translated. 

*  It has been suggested that a miracle was involved, but not that of stopping the motion of a celestial body.  That miracle could have been in the change in the refraction of the light from the sun in a manner that the sun appeared to remain in place.   I will point out that every day of the year, due to the refraction of the light from the sun, at sunset, the sun is actually below the curvature of the Earth at a time in which the sun appears to be still above the curvature of the Earth.  But, that is such common knowledge that I assume that you already know that. 

*  It has been suggested that the Biblical writer used the common language of that day, rather than to make a scientific statement.    Well, that is exactly what we do today in our  use of the terms "sunrise" and "sunset."  Those terms imply that it is the sun that moves around the Earth.  We all know better.  But we use them regardless.  By the way, the scientific community, that knows better publishes tables for the sunrise and the sunsets.

Paul, I have given you some possible understandings of the Biblical text.  I do not consider any of them to be perfect and final.  Therefore, I am willing to say that I do not have a good response.  I have more to learn.  I suggest the same for you.

On a personal basis, I welcome you to this forum.  You have challenged me and I appreciate that.  But, I will suggest that if you wish to participate with us in this discussion that you come down from your "high horse,'  be a little less judgmental, and a little more willing to admit that you probably do not know it all.

 

[Kevin H]

On 12/12/2020 at 6:12 PM, Paul said:

Fair point sorry. Ok the bible talks (KJV) the sun moves. The heliocentric (taken from Helios sun worship interesting fact) belief says the earth moves around the sun, so how can the sun move if the earth rotates around the sun?

Sun stops moving: Joshua 10: 12-14

Habakkuk 3:11

how can the sun stop moving if we are spinning around it?
 

I have more this is the beginning  

The Hebrew for this text can be understood in two possible readings. the word "Still" makes a good translation. It can either be read that the sun stood "still" as in not moving, or it can mean "still" in the sense of "Being quiet" or that for some reason the sun did not shine over the battle. 

From the text itself you cannot tell which way to interpret. We have to look at other things for support in which one of these two possibilities has the most evidence. 

The word for the moon not moving is a military term for a military field commander to hold his ground and not retreat to an oncoming enemy. 

Joshua asked the sun to be still on the eastern horizon and for the moon to stand fast at the western horizon. Why would Joshua pray with them in those locations instead of them being switched?

Looking at the battle field, the road is stepped and the fields are not that easy to run over without light. Joshua arrived early in the morning as the enemy was getting ready to attack. The darkness worked for Israel's advantage. They could shoot at the burning torches and hit something.  The enemy could not throw away their torches since they needed it to see where it was clear to run and that also gave light to the Hebrews for where to run. The sun shining would have given both armies equal advantage on the battle field. 

The Bible describes in answer to Joshua's prayer a huge hail storm with huge balls of hail. To have hail stones that big would require thick heavy clouds that would block out the sunlight and keep it as dark as night. 

The Gibionites, who had just stopped worshiping Baal and started worshiping YAHWEH, and those who came to attack them were currently worshiping Baal. Now Baal was the god of the storm. To the people involved it would be that Baal showed up to fight. But instead of him pouring forth his wrath on the Gibionites who had just stopped worshiping him, and attacking the Hebrews who worshiped a different God and who caused the Gibionites to turn against him. Baal shows himself as a tool for YAHWEH, showing that he does not mind the Gibionites to change from worshiping him and to start worshiping his boss, YAHWEH, and it was an encouragement to those who were planning to attack that maybe they should follow the path of the Gibionites and to turn from worshiping Baal to worshiping Ball's boss, the God most High, YAHWEH. 

As we look at the text and battlefield, I understand the evidence pointing to the sun being "still" as being quiet or not shining that day.

In addition, usually we find Jesus either repeating or giving a parallel activity. We find Jesus calming a storm at night. If we should understand the sun standing "still" as being quiet, we have that parallel activity, Joshua storming a calm morning and Jesus calming a stormy night. 

But even if the popular interpretation is correct, who says that God can only do one miracle at a time? Surely, he is big enough to control all of nature.  

[Theophilus]

Wow, am I way off in my thinking on this verse, having not gone in depth.

What I thought when I first read it was that Joshua was not an astronomer, but of course he knew God had control of everything. He wanted time to stop, and this is how he expressed it.  It was a prayer. God knew of course, and did it.

 

 

[B/W Photodude]

On 12/12/2020 at 6:12 PM, Paul said:

The heliocentric (taken from Helios sun worship interesting fact) belief says the earth moves around the sun, so how can the sun move if the earth rotates around the sun?

I think we are squabbling over frames of reference. And Piaget's ideas live on into adulthood psychology!

Piaget was a child psychologist who discussed how children think the moon is following them when they are riding along in a car and the moon stays right there. So, while we usually refer to the sun setting and rising, really it is the rotation of the earth, but people commonly think of the earth as their reference point.

We can argue over whether the sun stood still and how that occurred, but then try and explain the sun actually backing up in Hezekiah's day! For me, I just take the Bible at it's Word and assume that is exactly what happened. The earth stopped, rotated backwards, then resumed it's normal course. Apparently, this was enough to arouse the interest of astronomers all the way over in Babylon.

Just for interest, everything in the universe is moving including the moon, the earth, the sun, the galaxy. Infact, the galaxy itself is moving thru space at over 1 million miles an hour!

https://nightsky.jpl.nasa.gov/docs/HowFast.pdf

Previously, I mentioned "frames of reference." This is an important point. I recall being in astronomy class and some in astronomy really struck me as possible being very different in the way it was presented. This was a frame of reference issue. I went over it in detail with the instructor and he agreed that it was very possible, but we would continue to think of it as we have been doing! One of these days I will have to really write it down and present it to some other astronomers.

Interesting video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tO-Bq_VOAk

 

[Gustave]

On 12/12/2020 at 10:35 AM, Paul said:

Before I do, can we get one thing straight: do we take the bible and GODS word literally or is it metaphorical? Not including revelations or prophecy  

You should take the Bible in a literal sense & NOT in a "literalist" sense.

Literal sense vs Literalist Interpretation - YouTube

[phkrause]

On 12/12/2020 at 4:43 PM, Paul said:

Before I do, can we get one thing straight: do we take the bible and GODS word literally or is it metaphorical? Not including revelations or prophecy  

We absolutely take the Bible literally!! As it says in 2 Timothy 3:16-17, All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.