Ellen White & the Bible

[GHansen]

5 hours ago, Gustave said:

 

The article was offered to demonstrate that your  assertions regarding the History of the Sabbath in early Christianity are uninformed. I suggested reviewing  the section "Sabbath keeping Christians, which  includes the testimony of  the following in the order they are mentioned. Every  one of these evinces the existence of Sabbathkeepers in the post apostolic period, indicating that your claim of universal Sunday acceptance in apostolic times  is wrong:

Polycarp (martyred 156 A.D.}

Acts of John

Gospel of Thomas (180 A.D.)

Oxyrhynchus papyruses(200A.D.)

Theophilus of Antioch, (130- 185 AD)

Origen (200-250 A.D.)

Tertullian (220 A.D.)

Letter to the Magnesians  (~200-300A.D.)

As late as 400A.D. Jerome reported the existence of Sabbathkeeping Nazarens.

Then there is the matter of Sabbathkeeping among the Orthodox. It was a major factor in the Great Schism which occurred in the eleventh century.  You said that the churches mentioned in the article don't exist today. The Orthodox church certainly does.

[Gustave]

4 hours ago, GHansen said:

The article was offered to demonstrate that your  assertions regarding the History of the Sabbath in early Christianity are uninformed. I suggested reviewing  the section "Sabbath keeping Christians, which  includes the testimony of  the following in the order they are mentioned. Every  one of these evinces the existence of Sabbathkeepers in the post apostolic period, indicating that your claim of universal Sunday acceptance in apostolic times  is wrong:

Polycarp (martyred 156 A.D.}

Acts of John

Gospel of Thomas (180 A.D.)

Oxyrhynchus papyruses(200A.D.)

Theophilus of Antioch, (130- 185 AD)

Origen (200-250 A.D.)

Tertullian (220 A.D.)

Letter to the Magnesians  (~200-300A.D.)

As late as 400A.D. Jerome reported the existence of Sabbathkeeping Nazarens.

Then there is the matter of Sabbathkeeping among the Orthodox. It was a major factor in the Great Schism which occurred in the eleventh century.  You said that the churches mentioned in the article don't exist today. The Orthodox church certainly does.

 

As to my being uninformed - which one of the above ancients didn't assemble on the 1st day of the week to celebrate the Eucharist. 

[GHansen]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

 

As to my being uninformed - which one of the above ancients didn't assemble on the 1st day of the week to celebrate the Eucharist. 

Using half the truth,  to utter falsehood,  is not much different than telling none of it. Regardless of their personal practices, the point is that they document a history of Sabbath keeping  centuries after apostolic times.  Even historians who believe the apostles changed the Sabbath in NT times  hold that Sabbath was observed in Europe until the 8th century e.g.,  New Schaff Herzog Encyclopedia..., s.v. "Sunday" vol. 11 p. 145.

 

 

 

[Gustave]

54 minutes ago, GHansen said:

Using half the truth,  to utter falsehood,  is not much different than telling none of it. Regardless of their personal practices, the point is that they document a history of Sabbath keeping  centuries after apostolic times.  Even historians who believe the apostles changed the Sabbath in NT times  hold that Sabbath was observed in Europe until the 8th century e.g.,  New Schaff Herzog Encyclopedia..., s.v. "Sunday" vol. 11 p. 145.

 

 

 

 

The intentional omission of a relevant fact IS A LIE. 

Almost every Adventist article I've read (including the ones you provided) word things to imply the Latin side of the Church was responsible for "changing the Sabbath" and that the Eastern side of the Church didn't agree with it and documented it. A short amount of digging into these claims reveals that the ancient Christians making the statements universally assert that Sunday is the day Christians assembled "for worship" since the Resurrection of Christ. 

It's true that for a significant time that Jewish converts to Christianity continued to frequent the Synagogues AND I'm fairly certain many continued to frequent the Temple - these same Jewish converts to Christianity assembled with other Christians on the 1st day of the week & it was in that sense that they were observing the Sabbath, however they were not observing Sabbath to the exclusion of Sunday and someone without any historical knowledge, after reading those articles would believe all the early Christians "worshiped God on the equivalent of a Gregorian Saturday and that the Catholic or Latin (Western) half of the Church leveraged things inappropriately to "change the Sabbath" - a misrepresentation to be sure. 

The intentional omission of a relevant fact IS A LIE.  

So, if you're willing to stipulate that without exception the Eastern  half of the Church (AKA the Orthodox) celebrated the Eucharist every Sunday prior to, during & after those statements about the Sabbath your articles cite than perhaps we can roll up our sleeves and get to work on some hair splitting. I'm game for that. 

[GHansen]

The references I provided indicate that the Sabbath was observed by some Christians well after Apostolic times contrary to what you said. That includes  Orthodox and Coptic elements of the church. That's all the articles were intended to demonstrate. 

I noticed this statement that you made:  "Stop attempting to claim you agree with the Protestant Righteousness by Faith Doctrine - you don't agree with that any more than I do and pretty much every Protestant would agree with what I just said."

Would you mind explaining what you mean by that?

[GHansen]

Gustave, My remark about telling half the truth arose because I noticed that some of the sources you quoted favoring Sunday observance were polemics  arguing against Sabbathkeepers. Had it not been for the fact that people were keeping Sabbath, the assertions regarding Sunday wouldn't have existed. In some cases, both Sunday and Sabbath were being observed. To quote only the passages regarding Sunday observance while disregarding those regarding the Sabbath, in the same document, does seem dishonest. Schaff Herzog, for example, argues in favor of apostolic Sunday keeping but  acknowledges that Sabbath was observed by certain groups  hundreds of years later.  Romans, especially, indicates that there was controversy over days even in NT times. It's not as obvious as you would like it to be.

Justification is also controversial but in neither case is dogmatism suitable. There is obviously evidence on both sides of the questions about Sabbath/Sunday and justification. For some reason you think  that neither of us believe in justification by faith alone. I don't know your position but i can assure you that I do believe in justification by faith alone i.e., justification occurs solely through faith in God's promises. I agree with Luther's comments on Genesis 15 100%.

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, GHansen said:

The references I provided indicate that the Sabbath was observed by some Christians well after Apostolic times contrary to what you said. That includes  Orthodox and Coptic elements of the church. That's all the articles were intended to demonstrate. 

I noticed this statement that you made:  "Stop attempting to claim you agree with the Protestant Righteousness by Faith Doctrine - you don't agree with that any more than I do and pretty much every Protestant would agree with what I just said."

Would you mind explaining what you mean by that?

 

I believe that all moral aspects of the Old Testament Commandments are binding. 

You also believe that all moral aspects of the Old Testament Commandments are binding.

I believe that the Commandments that specifically differentiated Israel from the Nations surrounding them, Commandments that were supernaturally communicated that Israel could not have known about short of supernatural communication - were / ARE Ceremonial in nature and are outside of the Law of Christ and therefore not binding on Christians. 

You believe that the Sabbath has always been a Moral Commandment and therefore binding on Christians under the New Covenant. 

We agree with each other more than we would agree with Protestants here and I'll try to summarize it below. 

Galatians 3, 5:  He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?  Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Genesis 15, 6:  And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

 

Genesis 26, 5:  And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

I would say that righteousness was credited to Abraham BECAUSE he obeyed God when God commanded him to pack up all his stuff (essentially his security and life) AND MOVE (Genesis 12) to where only God knew. God gave a commandment and than there is a WORK'S part that involves Abraham cooperating with God - that work that involves Abram's actually doing something. 

If I'm not mistaken you believe something similar to me - the difference being that you believe that "Abram and his kinfolk kept the Sabbath" just like Abram's forefathers such as Enoch, Noah, etc. all kept the Sabbath and in the context of the 10 Commandments Abraham obeyed / observed the Sabbath and the other 9 Commandments, therefore, God counted Abraham's homage to "the 10 Commandment Law" as righteousness. 

I've repeatedly heard / read that Catholicism rejects righteousness by faith  and have seen the same charge applied to Seventh-day Adventism. 

Protestantism would deny either of us subscribe to the doctrine of righteousness by faith under the definition of it. SDA's have a penchant for pouring new and alien theological meanings into established words and terms ( examples: The Trinity, Hebrew meaning of the name Michael to "one who is like God", "Sabbath worship", etc.  

P.S: Luther & Calvin didn't believe that Abraham, Noah, Enoch, etc. "kept the Sabbath" and did not Ellen White say it means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy? 

 

 

 

 

[GHansen]

Gustave, You are completely mistaken regarding my beliefs. I don't believe that Christians are "bound" by any law of the Bible. I believe exactly the opposite i.e., Christ came to set us free from bondage as in "If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed."

You said "If I'm not mistaken you believe something similar to me - the difference being that you believe that "Abram and his kinfolk kept the Sabbath" just like Abram's forefathers such as Enoch, Noah, etc. all kept the Sabbath and in the context of the 10 Commandments Abraham obeyed / observed the Sabbath and the other 9 Commandments, therefore, God counted Abraham's homage to "the 10 Commandment Law" as righteousness." 

You are entirely mistaken regarding my belief as well as what the Bible says. Romans 4 is an inspired interpretation of Abraham's life. Paul explains that justification is by faith alone BECAUSE if there was any contribution on our part, God would then owe us justification. Justification would not be by grace. Furthermore, Paul says that there was no law until Moses [Romans 5:13,  Galatians 3:17]

Your understanding of Luther is also seriously flawed. Luther specifically said that Abraham kept the Sabbath:  

"תּוֹרָה[torah] is that which is beneficial for shaping morals. To this מִשְׁמַר and the rites also pertain. Thus Abraham was observant and waited for the commands of the Lord, also for the commands that pertained to morals. At the same time he observed the Decalogue, the rite of the Sabbath, and the law of circumcision."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 5: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 26-30. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 5, p. 20). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

[Gustave]

If I'm mistaken you're going to have to pretend I'm from Missouri and help me see it. 

Luther believe that ANY day one would engage in the Word of God WAS A SABBATH,  any day. 

Luther also believed that ALL 10 Commandments were moral with the Sabbath Commandment containing a ceremonial aspect as to timing. Therefore Luther as Catholics prior to him would agree that Abraham observed the Decalogue because the moral aspects of each Commandment are visible in EVERY culture prior to, during and long after Abraham. 

I've read multiple things written by Luther and know what his stance on the Sabbath was, what he put into his own Catechism so I'll have to look up your quote and read what's on either side of it. I do want to thank you for bringing this quote to my attention however. I'll be adding it to my collection of interesting things. 

More on this later. 

 

[GHansen]

Here's the larger context of Luther's comment on Genesis 26:5. You quoted Genesis 26:5. Then you said that Luther and Calvin didn't believe Abraham kept the Sabbath. That's just a flat out wrong statement about Luther.  Of course I know Luther didn't keep the Sabbath nor enjoin others to do it. He was opposed to Sabbatarians; however, he did believe Abraham kept the Sabbath as his comments on the verse you quoted demonstrate. Having read "multiple things" by Luther, as you say, I must assume you read "Christian Liberty." As a Protestant, why would you [erroneously] assume that I am "bound" by anything aside from my faith in Christ? Since you have read "multiple things" by Luther, you must be familiar with Lenke's English translation of Luther's sermons in 8 volumes. Two of my favorites are "A Sermon for the Day of the Founding  of the Cross of Christ" (vol 3, p. 371) and  "A Sermon on the Lost Sheep" (vol 4 p. 53). I'd heard that his treatise "Against Latomus" was groundbreaking but i didn't find it so. What's your opinion of "Against Latomus."

 

'But in the text there are four words which we shall explain, for the Jews want to conclude from this that the Law of Moses existed even before Moses. And it is true that almost everything in Moses was taken from the fathers and their books.15 Yet there is a difference. מִשְׁמַר, that is, “charge,” is a general noun frequently used in Leviticus; for the Levites are said to keep the charges of the Lord, just as we say in German: wart, was ich dich heissen werde. I am commanding someone to be ready and to wait for my commands. Thus the Levites stood in the tabernacle and waited for the command of the high priest in case he ordered them to do something. In the same way it is stated here: “Abraham kept My charge.” Er wartet auff mich, thet, was ich jhn hiess. This means that when he was commanded to sacrifice his son, he obeyed My voice, etc.

Strictly speaking, מִצְוָה denotes commandments and a constant charge, as the Decalog is.
חֹק is the regulation of the rites that have to do with the divine worship, when God ordains something for the worship. It is not a command; it is an established form of worship. Ps. 2:7 says: “I will tell of the decree,” that is, the form of worship. God will establish another form of worship through His Son.
תּוֹרָה is that which is beneficial for shaping morals. To this מִשְׁמַר and the rites also pertain. Thus Abraham was observant and waited for the commands of the Lord, also for the commands that pertained to morals. At the same time he observed the Decalog, the rite of the Sabbath, and the law of circumcision.:"

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 5: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 26-30. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 5, pp. 19–20). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, GHansen said:

Here's the larger context of Luther's comment on Genesis 26:5. You quoted Genesis 26:5. Then you said that Luther and Calvin didn't believe Abraham kept the Sabbath. That's just a flat out wrong statement about Luther.  Of course I know Luther didn't keep the Sabbath nor enjoin others to do it. He was opposed to Sabbatarians; however, he did believe Abraham kept the Sabbath as his comments on the verse you quoted demonstrate. Having read "multiple things" by Luther, as you say, I must assume you read "Christian Liberty." As a Protestant, why would you [erroneously] assume that I am "bound" by anything aside from my faith in Christ? Since you have read "multiple things" by Luther, you must be familiar with Lenke's English translation of Luther's sermons in 8 volumes. Two of my favorites are "A Sermon for the Day of the Founding  of the Cross of Christ" (vol 3, p. 371) and  "A Sermon on the Lost Sheep" (vol 4 p. 53). I'd heard that his treatise "Against Latomus" was groundbreaking but i didn't find it so. What's your opinion of "Against Latomus."

 

'But in the text there are four words which we shall explain, for the Jews want to conclude from this that the Law of Moses existed even before Moses. And it is true that almost everything in Moses was taken from the fathers and their books.15 Yet there is a difference. מִשְׁמַר, that is, “charge,” is a general noun frequently used in Leviticus; for the Levites are said to keep the charges of the Lord, just as we say in German: wart, was ich dich heissen werde. I am commanding someone to be ready and to wait for my commands. Thus the Levites stood in the tabernacle and waited for the command of the high priest in case he ordered them to do something. In the same way it is stated here: “Abraham kept My charge.” Er wartet auff mich, thet, was ich jhn hiess. This means that when he was commanded to sacrifice his son, he obeyed My voice, etc.

Strictly speaking, מִצְוָה denotes commandments and a constant charge, as the Decalog is.
חֹק is the regulation of the rites that have to do with the divine worship, when God ordains something for the worship. It is not a command; it is an established form of worship. Ps. 2:7 says: “I will tell of the decree,” that is, the form of worship. God will establish another form of worship through His Son.
תּוֹרָה is that which is beneficial for shaping morals. To this מִשְׁמַר and the rites also pertain. Thus Abraham was observant and waited for the commands of the Lord, also for the commands that pertained to morals. At the same time he observed the Decalog, the rite of the Sabbath, and the law of circumcision.:"

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 5: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 26-30. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 5, pp. 19–20). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

 

Luther's view was that the Jews interpreted the Sabbath incorrectly and made a misery out of it. I'm re-familiarizing with Luther's multiple statements on the Sabbath - if in the end Luther is saying what you are assigning to him I will simply admit I was wrong. If not you can be sure I'll be correcting your understanding of what Luther meant when he said what you quoted.

 You are a Seventh-day Adventist in good standing are you not? Look at these:

“Here we find the mark of the beast. The very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, on the part of the Catholic church, without any authority from the Bible.” (Ellen G. White, The Mark of the Beast, page 23).

 

"The Sunday Sabbath is purely a child of the Papacy. It IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST. (Sabbath Herald, Volume 1 No. 2 August 1850).

 

“Sunday-keeping is an institution of the first beast, and ALL who submit to obey this institution emphatically worship the first beast and receive his mark, 'the mark of the beast.' .... Those who worship the beast and his image by observing the first day are certainly idolaters, as were the worshippers of the golden calf.” (Advent Review Extra, pages 10 and 11, August, 1850).

 

"IT MEANS ETERNAL SALVATION TO KEEP THE SABBATH UNTO THE LORD. God says them that honor me will I honor 1 Samuel 2, 230. Ellen White, Sabbath Herald, July 6, 1897

Ellen White
He designed that man should worship him upon THAT day, and engage in no secular pursuits. No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

Ghansen, do you believe that you've been "enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath". 

VERY EARLY in Ellen White's prophetic carrier she claimed God told her that AT THAT TIME God was "testing" people on the "Sabbath question". 

Ellen White
I saw that Jesus had shut the door of the holy place, and no man can open it; and that He had opened the door into the most holy, and no man can shut it (Revelation 3:7, 8); [see page 86. See also appendix.] and that since Jesus has opened the door into the most holy place, which contains the ark, the commandments have been shining out to God’s people, and they are being tested on the Sabbath question. {EW 42.2}

Now open your Bible and turn it to James 2, 24 and see the way that reads. 

The below link is a short write up on the subject - they do a better job explaining this than I would so I'll defer it to them. Answer honestly, does your view align more with mine here considering the fundamentals of belief the SDA Church has which conflicts with literally every Trinitarian Protestant Church? Or would you still say you believe in Righteousness by Faith NO DIFFERENTLY than a Baptist or Mormon for that matter. 

 

[GHansen]

Not really assigning anything to Luther, simply quoting his commentary on the verse you mentioned.  His broader view on the Sabbath vis-a-vis our obligation to keep it or not is irrelevant. That's not what I addressed. You said he didn't believe that Abraham kept the Sabbath, contrary to his comments on Genesis 26:5. I merely pointed out that he did believe that Abraham kept the Sabbath. No need to review all his comments on the Sabbath, just the ones about Abraham observing or not observing it. Ellen White has absolutely nothing to do with what Luther believed about Genesis 26:5 beyond agreeing with him. I doubt she ever read his Genesis Commentary. Not sure why you are quoting her in this context. What Mormons, SDA, Baptists believe about justification by faith might interest you. What interests me is how the Hebrew and Greek words for justify and justification are used in Scripture. The Hebrew word usually translated "justify" is used only 40 times in the OT e.g., 

Ge 44:16  And Judah said, What shall we say unto my lord? what shall we speak? or how shall we clear ourselves <06663>? God hath found out the iniquity of thy servants: behold, we [are] my lord’s servants, both we, and [he] also with whom the cup is found.

De 25:1  If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that [the judges] may judge them; then they shall justify <06663> the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

2Sa 15:4  Absalom said moreover, Oh that I were made judge in the land, that every man which hath any suit or cause might come unto me, and I would do him justice <06663>!

Job speaks of justification more, much more than any other OT book. He hardly ever mentions commandment, law, statute, or precept; therefore, it's a good place to get a good understanding of what it means to be justified by faith, apart from the deeds of the law.  

[Gustave]

I contacted the Luther Seminary in Saint Paul MN and was lucky enough to have the Professor of Reformation History and Theology respond to me. I did learn some things I didn't know but was not overly surprised as to what I was told. 

Martin Luther indeed believed that the Decalogue was imprinted at creation and that all the holy individuals prior to Moses kept the rite of the Sabbath. What Luther meant by that was radically different than what SDA's imply when quoting Luther however. 

Luther believed that it was moral or natural law to give to God a portion of ones time in the furtherance of ones relationship with God and that the particular day wasn't important at all as setting aside the actual time. When God enjoined the ceremonial Sabbath on Israel THAT SABBATH was not the Sabbath (communicated to Moses was NOT the Sabbath that Abraham or those before him would have recognized. 

I was referred to a work by Luther titled ""Against the Heavenly Prophets" (1525) where Luther argues / articulates  that WHATEVER in the Mosaic law exceeds the natural law is not binding on Christians.  This is almost word for word with how the Catechism of the Council of Trent explains why Christians don't observe the 7th day of the week. 

So, while Luther did indeed say that Abraham observed the rite of the Sabbath as well as the 10 commandments the Sabbath observance Luther meant was alien to anything the Jews did from Moses to the time of Christ or what SDA's do today in honor of that day. 

If Luther could have had his way EVERY DAY would have been a Sabbath he called Sunday Sabbath and any day that read and applied the Word of God in their lives. 

I'd like your comments on this Ghansen. 

 

[GHansen]

You said that Luther and Calvin did not believe that Abraham kept the Sabbath. I offered proof, in the form of a comment from his Genesis Commentary, that, in fact, Luther did believe that Abraham kept the Sabbath. That was really all I am/was interested in commenting about vis-a-vis Luther's view of the Sabbath. Luther's views on justification by faith, as evinced in his less polemical works such as sermons; Galatians commentary, especially chapter 3; Genesis Commentary e.g., chapter 15, and the like are worth considering. If I wanted to understand Luther's views on the Sabbath, I would read "Against the Sabbatarians." There you will find the following: 

"Finally, we also want to discuss the Ten Commandments. For perhaps the Jews will also call the Ten Commandments the law of Moses, since they were given on Mount Sinai in the presence of none but Jews or children of Abraham, etc. You must reply: If the Ten Commandments are to be regarded as Moses’ law, then Moses came far too late, and he also addressed himself to far too few people, because the Ten Commandments had spread over the whole world not only before Moses but even before Abraham and all the patriarchs. For even if a Moses had never appeared and Abraham had never been born, the Ten Commandments would have had to rule in all men from the very beginning, as they indeed did and still do."26

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 47: The Christian in Society IV. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 47, p. 89). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, GHansen said:

You said that Luther and Calvin did not believe that Abraham kept the Sabbath. I offered proof, in the form of a comment from his Genesis Commentary, that, in fact, Luther did believe that Abraham kept the Sabbath. That was really all I am/was interested in commenting about vis-a-vis Luther's view of the Sabbath. Luther's views on justification by faith, as evinced in his less polemical works such as sermons; Galatians commentary, especially chapter 3; Genesis Commentary e.g., chapter 15, and the like are worth considering. If I wanted to understand Luther's views on the Sabbath, I would read "Against the Sabbatarians." There you will find the following: 

"Finally, we also want to discuss the Ten Commandments. For perhaps the Jews will also call the Ten Commandments the law of Moses, since they were given on Mount Sinai in the presence of none but Jews or children of Abraham, etc. You must reply: If the Ten Commandments are to be regarded as Moses’ law, then Moses came far too late, and he also addressed himself to far too few people, because the Ten Commandments had spread over the whole world not only before Moses but even before Abraham and all the patriarchs. For even if a Moses had never appeared and Abraham had never been born, the Ten Commandments would have had to rule in all men from the very beginning, as they indeed did and still do."26

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 47: The Christian in Society IV. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 47, p. 89). Philadelphia: Fortress Press.

Luther didn't believe Abraham kept the Sabbath according the SDA definition - Abraham, according to Luther, could have kept the Sabbath on ANY day of the week for any period of time within that day - that's the moral or natural part of the 3rd commandment according to Martin Luther. 

Someone reading your quote of Luther within the context of our discussion would have believed that Luther believed that Abraham worshipped God from Friday evening through to Sabbath (Saturday) evening while abstaining from his own personal pleasure, work, etc. etc.  - This is not at all what Luther believed. 

This is what I was saying earlier about the common SDA penchant for pouring new definitions into established terms. The Catechism of Trent (1556) clearly states that the Moral Law of God is ingrained in every person on earth AND that the Sabbath Commandment in the Decalogue has both a moral and ceremonial aspect - the Moral or natural part if man's inner conscious that he should dedicate some time to the worship or honoring of his god or god's - the CEREMONIAL part of the commandment was exactly WHEN this worship would be done - man, by his nature wouldn't know one day over another which day was better for this or that - this kind of information is OUTSIDE OF NATURAL OR MORAL LAW and its imparted by supernatural means. The Catechism of Trent is explictly clear on this  & Martin Luther agreed with Trent on this part in total. 

You Said: "Your understanding of Luther is also seriously flawed. Luther specifically said that Abraham kept the Sabbath:"  

So, who's understanding of Luther is more flawed between the two of us. Did you know, according to Luther, Abraham could have "kept the Sabbath" perfectly for two hours on the equivalent of a Gregorian Tuesday and went back to normal everyday business? Did you know all along that Luther believed that anything outside of Moral or Natural law God enjoined on the Jews ONLY?   

Yes, what Luther said about the 10 Commandments is the same as the Catholic Teaching - the 10 Commandments are MORAL OR NATURAL LAW and therefore eternally binding because God is moral. 

 

 

[Gustave]

The other thing I wanted to report as to my short visit with the Lutheran Professor of Reformation History & Theology was that he viewed Seventh-day Adventists as "Brothers and Sisters in Christ". Felt that was important and should have included it in my first post after the visit. 

 

 

[GHansen]

Gustave, Why not just admit you were wrong? Not a big deal. No one knows how Abraham kept the Sabbath. The sensible thing would be to accept that he kept the Sabbath according to the Commandment enshrined in the Decalogue, if you believe he kept it at all. The idea that the Sabbath can be kept on any day of the week is preposterous. Reminds me of an acquaintance who said "I don't believe in the death and resurrection of Christ but I'm a Christian. I explained to him that the definition of a Christian is someone who does believe in the death and resurrection of Christ. The definition of Sabbath keeping in Scripture is abstaining from work on the 7th day of the week. Sabbath keeping by Abraham makes sense when you consider Luther's chronology and his views about the patriarchs in general. Luther believed that Noah, Shem and Abraham were contemporaries and that Shem was Melchisedec. He spoke to Abraham in God's behalf, instructing him to leave his home. It's very easy to see that the line from Adam to Abraham is connected through Noah and Shem; consequently, the 7th day Sabbath could easily been communicated to Abraham. Luther believed Abraham kept the Sabbath, which he would have learned about from Shem/Noah who he believed was Melchisedec, the priest of the Most High. This has nothing to do with Trent, Ellen White, SDA. If it's important to you. buy the Genesis commentary and read it. Scripture says that Melchisedec brought forth bread and wine, not the Sabbath.  

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, Why not just admit you were wrong? Not a big deal. No one knows how Abraham kept the Sabbath. The sensible thing would be to accept that he kept the Sabbath according to the Commandment enshrined in the Decalogue, if you believe he kept it at all. The idea that the Sabbath can be kept on any day of the week is preposterous. Reminds me of an acquaintance who said "I don't believe in the death and resurrection of Christ but I'm a Christian. I explained to him that the definition of a Christian is someone who does believe in the death and resurrection of Christ. The definition of Sabbath keeping in Scripture is abstaining from work on the 7th day of the week. Sabbath keeping by Abraham makes sense when you consider Luther's chronology and his views about the patriarchs in general. Luther believed that Noah, Shem and Abraham were contemporaries and that Shem was Melchisedec. He spoke to Abraham in God's behalf, instructing him to leave his home. It's very easy to see that the line from Adam to Abraham is connected through Noah and Shem; consequently, the 7th day Sabbath could easily been communicated to Abraham. Luther believed Abraham kept the Sabbath, which he would have learned about from Shem/Noah who he believed was Melchisedec, the priest of the Most High. This has nothing to do with Trent, Ellen White, SDA. If it's important to you. buy the Genesis commentary and read it. Scripture says that Melchisedec brought forth bread and wine, not the Sabbath.  

If when you posted that I was wrong about Luther because Luther stated that Abraham kept the Sabbath and if by that you meant that Abraham kept the Sabbath on a Thursday, Monday or Sunday and for only a couple hours than I freely admit I WAS WRONG. 

I was completely ignorant of the quote you cited from Luther - no doubt about that. 

I've heard countless times from SDA's that Adam & Eve, Enoch, Noah, Abram, etc. kept a cycling 7th day Sabbath equivalent to a Gregorian Saturday so that if one were to wind back in time would terminate to the first Saturday Sabbath at the end of what is commonly called creation week. I assumed you believed that and as a point to raise for reasonable belief pointed to Luther and his statement. 

When you quoted Luther where he said Abraham observed / kept the rite of the Sabbath I assumed you were inferring Luther believed Abraham kept what would have been the same day as a Gregorian Saturday - if this isn't what you meant or intended I DO APOLOGIZE for jumping the gun and attributing something to you that you didn't believe. If that's what happened I was absolutely wrong for doing that. 

I'm wrong plenty of times and don't have an issue in conceding a point. 

[GHansen]

Gustave, SDA's are not the only group to observe the 7th day Sabbath. It was passed to Adventists through the influence of 7th day Baptists. If I abstain from ordinary work on the wrong day or a day different from that of Adam, oops. I do the best I can with what I know. Salvation isn't about being right, it's about being righteous. I believe that righteousness comes to me by faith in Christ not by observing the Sabbath on either the right or the wrong day. Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. I accept that. 

[Gustave]

55 minutes ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, SDA's are not the only group to observe the 7th day Sabbath. It was passed to Adventists through the influence of 7th day Baptists. If I abstain from ordinary work on the wrong day or a day different from that of Adam, oops. I do the best I can with what I know. Salvation isn't about being right, it's about being righteous. I believe that righteousness comes to me by faith in Christ not by observing the Sabbath on either the right or the wrong day. Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. I accept that. 

I never said that SDA's were the only ones - my only point with the Luther quote was that his definition of the Sabbath pre -Moses was that it was ONLY a natural or moral law at that point (i.e. man felt the urge by his conscious to set aside SOME TIME (whatever time it happened to be) to honor or worship what he believed to be God(s). This is observed in every culture throughout recorded history, therefore, it's "moral" or "natural law" because man is compelled by Nature to observe it. No different than the moral or natural law against "stealing" or sleeping with someone else's wife - those are all MORAL or natural laws instilled on the hearts of mankind. 

The Luther quote you provided about Abraham served to bolster the points I've been making as Luther claimed the pure Sabbath as observed by Abraham was changed into a ceremonial Sabbath strictly for the Jewish people and that a person prior to Moses wouldn't have been compelled by Nature to observe the equivalent of a Gregorian Saturday any more than the person would have been compelled to observe the day of atonement or compelled to not eat shrimp. 

[GHansen]

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[Gregory Matthews]

A couple of general comments:

1)  Gustave, in posts in this forum, has openly and freely admitted that he has been wrong on certain issues.  Let us not imply that he cannot ever be convinced that he is wrong.

2)  An in-depth examination of the writings of Martin Luther can be confusing as to exactly what he believed.  At times he may seem to say one thing and at other times he may seem to say something else.  In addition Luther did hold some beliefs that would be rejected today by both Protestants and Catholics.  NOTE:  My comment here is not directed a any post in this forum.

 

[GHansen]

Gustave, I wonder why you make certain assertions which do not appear to have been based on actual knowledge of Luther's views. Do you now consider yourself an expert on Luther's view of the law because of a single telephone conversation. Chaplain Matthews has apparently spent time studying Luther He is aware of the complexity involved. Luther wrote different things at different times to different people in different contexts. Two of his treatises on the Jews appear completely contradictory i.e., "That Jesus Christ was born a Jew" and "On the Jews and their Lies." The issue is further complicated in that Luther cared for a Jewish man and his family, employing him in his home.

You made the following statement: 

"Luther didn't believe Abraham kept the Sabbath according the SDA definition - Abraham, according to Luther, could have kept the Sabbath on ANY day of the week for any period of time within that day - that's the moral or natural part of the 3rd commandment according to Martin Luther. 

Someone reading your quote of Luther within the context of our discussion would have believed that Luther believed that Abraham worshipped God from Friday evening through to Sabbath (Saturday) evening while abstaining from his own personal pleasure, work, etc. etc.  - This is not at all what Luther believed."

What do you base this assertion upon? You profess to understand what Luther believed in detail about Abraham and the Sabbath; nevertheless, your assertion about the relativity of Sabbath timing is plainly contradicted by Luther's own comments on the Sabbath. Luther understood the Sabbath was a literal 24 hour period, blessed by God as a time especially suitable for the worship of God. Note his comments on Genesis 2:3:

In Matt. 12 Christ says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.5 But Moses says nothing here about man; he does not say in so many words that the Sabbath was commanded to man; he says that God blessed the Sabbath and that He sanctified it for Himself. Moreover, He did not do this to any other creature. He did not sanctify for Himself the heaven, the earth, or any other creature; but the seventh day He did sanctify for Himself. This has the special purpose of making us understand that the seventh day in particular should be devoted to divine worship. For “holy” is that which has been set aside for God and has been removed from all secular uses. Hence to sanctify means to set aside for sacred purposes, or for the worship of God. In this manner Moses rather frequently employs the expression, also of sacred vessels.6

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 1, p. 79). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

"It follows, therefore, from this passage that if Adam had remained in the state of innocence, he nevertheless would have held the seventh day sacred. That is, on this day he would have given his descendants instructions about the will and worship of God; he would have praised God; he would have given thanks; he would have sacrificed, etc. On the other days he would have tilled his fields and tended his cattle. Indeed, even after the Fall he kept this seventh day sacred; that is, on this day he instructed his family, of which the sacrifices of his sons Cain and Abel give the proof. Therefore from the beginning of the world the Sabbath was intended for the worship of God."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 1, pp. 79–80). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

 

Notice that even after the Fall, Luther believed Adam kept the literal Sabbath. This is the knowledge that would have passed to Abraham through his contact with Shem, the son of Noah, who was a contemporary of Adam.

[Gregory Matthews]

I do not claim to be an expert of the teachings of Martin Luther.

However, for years while I was a Federal Chaplain, I shared an office with a Lutheran Chaplain.  We discussed Martin Luther and he agreed with me as to what I have stated in the previous post.

On another issue, the following book is the PhD. Thesis of the author, which was submitted to the University of London:

Reinder Bruinsma. Seventh-day Adventist Attitudes Toward Roman Catholicism, 1844 - 1965, Andrews University Press, 1994, 374 pages.

One comment, on page 297, is of interest:

1. Adventist criticism was increasingly anti-papal rather than  anti-catholic, even though this distinction was not usually explicitly made by Adventist authors.  

Another partial quote from pages 301 & 302 is of interest:

It seems to me that Adventists must enter into some sort of dialogue with Roman Catholics, both on the individual and corporate level, if they want to arrive at a fair appraisal of present-day Roman catholicism.

NOTE:  My quotes above are only partial, due to time and space.  The above come from 6-pages of important material.

[Gregory Matthews]

Another interesting book is:  Lutherans & Adventists in Conversation: Report & Papers Presented 1994 - 1998.

*  The copyright to the book is co-owned by The General  Conference of Seventh-day Adventists and the Lutheran World Federation.

*  It is 319 pages in length.

*  It consists of 18 papers presented by SDAs & Lutharns.

*  It contains the reports of a series of four (4) meetings that were held in Germany, Canada and Switzerland.

*  My copy of the book was printed by the SDA Pacific Press in 2000.  I am not informed as to how the Lutherans may have printed the book.

*  Depending on the specific subject, there may be information related to what Luther thought on a specific subject.