Ellen White & the Bible

[Gustave]

11 hours ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, I wonder why you make certain assertions which do not appear to have been based on actual knowledge of Luther's views. Do you now consider yourself an expert on Luther's view of the law because of a single telephone conversation. Chaplain Matthews has apparently spent time studying Luther He is aware of the complexity involved. Luther wrote different things at different times to different people in different contexts. Two of his treatises on the Jews appear completely contradictory i.e., "That Jesus Christ was born a Jew" and "On the Jews and their Lies." The issue is further complicated in that Luther cared for a Jewish man and his family, employing him in his home.

You made the following statement: 

"Luther didn't believe Abraham kept the Sabbath according the SDA definition - Abraham, according to Luther, could have kept the Sabbath on ANY day of the week for any period of time within that day - that's the moral or natural part of the 3rd commandment according to Martin Luther. 

Someone reading your quote of Luther within the context of our discussion would have believed that Luther believed that Abraham worshipped God from Friday evening through to Sabbath (Saturday) evening while abstaining from his own personal pleasure, work, etc. etc.  - This is not at all what Luther believed."

What do you base this assertion upon? You profess to understand what Luther believed in detail about Abraham and the Sabbath; nevertheless, your assertion about the relativity of Sabbath timing is plainly contradicted by Luther's own comments on the Sabbath. Luther understood the Sabbath was a literal 24 hour period, blessed by God as a time especially suitable for the worship of God. Note his comments on Genesis 2:3:

In Matt. 12 Christ says that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.5 But Moses says nothing here about man; he does not say in so many words that the Sabbath was commanded to man; he says that God blessed the Sabbath and that He sanctified it for Himself. Moreover, He did not do this to any other creature. He did not sanctify for Himself the heaven, the earth, or any other creature; but the seventh day He did sanctify for Himself. This has the special purpose of making us understand that the seventh day in particular should be devoted to divine worship. For “holy” is that which has been set aside for God and has been removed from all secular uses. Hence to sanctify means to set aside for sacred purposes, or for the worship of God. In this manner Moses rather frequently employs the expression, also of sacred vessels.6

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 1, p. 79). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

"It follows, therefore, from this passage that if Adam had remained in the state of innocence, he nevertheless would have held the seventh day sacred. That is, on this day he would have given his descendants instructions about the will and worship of God; he would have praised God; he would have given thanks; he would have sacrificed, etc. On the other days he would have tilled his fields and tended his cattle. Indeed, even after the Fall he kept this seventh day sacred; that is, on this day he instructed his family, of which the sacrifices of his sons Cain and Abel give the proof. Therefore from the beginning of the world the Sabbath was intended for the worship of God."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 1, pp. 79–80). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

 

Notice that even after the Fall, Luther believed Adam kept the literal Sabbath. This is the knowledge that would have passed to Abraham through his contact with Shem, the son of Noah, who was a contemporary of Adam. Luther did write things at different times but what's at issue here is very specific. 

What was Luther's beliefs on the difference between Natural or Moral law AND CEREMONIAL law. 

 

 

A): I don’t consider myself an expert in anything, I simply leveraged someone who is an expert on what Luther's views were on a very narrow part of what you are claiming. 

 

B): the statement I made stands quite well. Luther, in Against the Sabbatarians, said,  "If the Ten Commandments are to be regarded as Moses’ law, then Moses came far too late, and he also addressed himself to far too few people, because the Ten Commandments had spread over the whole world not only before Moses but even before Abraham and all the patriarchs. For even if a Moses had never appeared and Abraham had never been born, the Ten Commandments would have had to rule in all men from the very beginning, as they indeed did and still do.

&

"For all creatures rightly regard God as God and honor his name, as do also the angels in heaven. Thus we and all human beings are obligated to hear his word, to honor father and mother, to refrain from killing, from adultery, from stealing, from bearing false witness, from coveting one’s neighbor’s house or anything else that is his. All the heathen bear witness to this in their writings, laws, and governments, as can be clearly seen; but nothing is said therein of circumcision or of the laws Moses gave to the [Israelites] for the land of Canaan.

How many "Heathen Nations" can you cite GHansen,  that kept the Sabbath? Luther above said that the 10 Commandments had spread all over the whole earth LONG before Moses arrived and given that Luther repeatedly speaks of the 3rd Commandment (Sabbath) - IT is absolutely included in the ten. Luther claims that the heathen were keeping it.  Now is your big chance to show all your buddies that you rode into theological battle and defeated a minion of the serpent - all you have to do is find a bunch of heathen nations that "kept the sabbath" . This shouldn't be too hard for you given the confidence you've expressed in these last couple of posts. 

One you accept the reality of this situation and go back and read how I've explained that according to Luther all the ten commandments are rooted in Natural or Moral law AND that is why we see that every ancient nation since time began established what equates to the 10 Commandments, RIGHT DOWN TO DEDICATING a certain time for the honor or worship of whatever they believed to be God(s). Why did these heathen nations do this? Because the Moral or Natural law is instilled to ALL MANKIND regardless if the person has ever heard of Judaism or Christianity. 

I posted the Catechism of the Catholic Church section on the Sabbath Commandment more than once here on this forum and Luther's definition is SPOT ON to Catholic Teaching in this "particular" area of natural / moral Vs. Ceremonial law. 

So, AGAIN, what I'm saying was that I was told by a Lutheran Seminary Professor who specializes in Reformation History and Theology that Luther believed the 10 Commandments were worldwide because, as Luther said, "IF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS ARE TO BE REGARDED AS MOSES' LAW, THEN MOSES CAME FAR TO LATE.....BECAUSE, THE TEN COMMANDMENTS HAD SPREAD ALL OVER THE WORLD...." 

iF heathen nations were keeping the 10 commandments long before Moses appeared you shouldn't have any problems with what I've been saying - your issue should be with whoever told you Abraham kept a 7th day Sabbath that aligned with a Saturday one. 

Here are a couple Scriptures for you to chew on reference Moses. 

Exodus 10,25:  And Moses said, Thou must give us also sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice unto the Lord our God. Our cattle also shall go with us; there shall not an hoof be left behind; for thereof must we take to serve the Lord our God; and we know not with what we must serve the Lord, until we come thither.

Nehemiah 9, 13-14: Moreover thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go. Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:  And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

According to Scripture, Martin Luther & the Catholic Church the Moral or Natural Law of God is instilled in every person. According to Martin Luther the Ten Commandments were already worldwide and being practiced by every heathen nation under the sun as evidenced in their laws, histories, etc. 

Just what was it PAST the Moral or Natural Law that God supernaturally shared with Israel? Could it be the ceremonial law pertaining to specifically WHEN the Jews were to observe their  weekly Sabbath, and other Sabbaths, what they were specifically to not eat, etc, etc.? 

B): The Sabbath ( 7th day in creation week ) WAS made for man, it was intended to be NEVER ENDING, perpetual. Everything was PERFECT, God had done everything and it was VERY GOOD - there was nothing left to do - Adam and Eve were plopped within a stones throw of perpetual paradise. 

Read the 1st paragraph of: Rosh Hashanah Message – the meaning of the Shofar – Friends of Itamar (touritamarsupportisrael.com)

According to Judaism Adam and Eve sinned on the very day they were created & were subsequently expelled from the Garden of Eden. After THAT, instead of sliding into God's rest where everything was PERFECTION: 

 

"And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;" Genesis 3, 17

In other words things were not going to be as nice as they would have been - AKA NO REST, NO ENTERING INTO GOD'S REST. In other words Adam and Eve were not "busing sod" pulling weeds for 6 days and then Keeping the Sabbath. They never made it to the Sabbath - that's the whole point of the Jewish Holiday Rosh Hashanah which, just like the Festival of Lights, was celebrated by Synagogue attending Jews. 

I believe the other reasons you list are aptly dealt with by what I've posted here. If not by all means let me know and we can spend some more quality time with them.

 

[GHansen]

Gustave, What I have responded to is your false declarations about what Luther believed about Abraham. I haven't been considering the larger question of how we or Luther relate to the Sabbath, just to what Luther believed about Abraham. If the Vatican nuncio to the Brothers De La Salle said Luther didn't drink wine, I'd like it explained, not with wild speculation/imaginings. I'd want to see references from Luther himself or  from his  wife explaining  what they did with all the wine with which he was gifted from time to time.   I can read. If you want to attack the English translation of Luther's Works, you'll need to contact Augsburg Fortress Press.

Luther believed that Abraham kept the 7th day Sabbath in a literal sense as it was passed down to him through the family of Noah, who were contemporaries of Adam.

Luther believed that a major apostasy occurred in the world through the influence of Nimrod; consequently much of the moral/natural law was lost sight of.

God called Abraham, through Shem, to reestablish God's way in the earth.

I'm not concerned at this time about what the Jews believed about the Sabbath. If i remember correctly, it was you who introduced the falsehood that Luther didn't believe Abraham kept the Sabbath. You opened this door. It appears that you also want to obfuscate the fact that Luther believed that Adam observed the 7th day Sabbath. In fact, he believed that Adam and Even sinned on the first Sabbath they spent in Eden i.e., they ate the forbidden fruit on the first Sabbath they shared after creation. It was after this that the sacrificial system was introduced.

I'm not sure how you framed your question to the professor. As a matter of method, quoting a polemical work of Luther written against Spirituals/Anababtists/renegades/ whatever you want to call them, is more or less irrelevant to what he believed and wrote about Abraham in his Genesis commentary. Agreement or disagreement may be incidental. If you, or anybody else, want to know what Luther believed about Abraham, read the Genesis commentary. Luther wrote more, biographically, about Abraham than any other Biblical figure, according to the editors of the English edition of Luther's works.

[Gustave]

9 hours ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, What I have responded to is your false declarations about what Luther believed about Abraham. I haven't been considering the larger question of how we or Luther relate to the Sabbath, just to what Luther believed about Abraham. If the Vatican nuncio to the Brothers De La Salle said Luther didn't drink wine, I'd like it explained, not with wild speculation/imaginings. I'd want to see references from Luther himself or  from his  wife explaining  what they did with all the wine with which he was gifted from time to time.   I can read. If you want to attack the English translation of Luther's Works, you'll need to contact Augsburg Fortress Press.

Luther believed that Abraham kept the 7th day Sabbath in a literal sense as it was passed down to him through the family of Noah, who were contemporaries of Adam.

Luther believed that a major apostasy occurred in the world through the influence of Nimrod; consequently much of the moral/natural law was lost sight of.

God called Abraham, through Shem, to reestablish God's way in the earth.

I'm not concerned at this time about what the Jews believed about the Sabbath. If i remember correctly, it was you who introduced the falsehood that Luther didn't believe Abraham kept the Sabbath. You opened this door. It appears that you also want to obfuscate the fact that Luther believed that Adam observed the 7th day Sabbath. In fact, he believed that Adam and Even sinned on the first Sabbath they spent in Eden i.e., they ate the forbidden fruit on the first Sabbath they shared after creation. It was after this that the sacrificial system was introduced.

I'm not sure how you framed your question to the professor. As a matter of method, quoting a polemical work of Luther written against Spirituals/Anababtists/renegades/ whatever you want to call them, is more or less irrelevant to what he believed and wrote about Abraham in his Genesis commentary. Agreement or disagreement may be incidental. If you, or anybody else, want to know what Luther believed about Abraham, read the Genesis commentary. Luther wrote more, biographically, about Abraham than any other Biblical figure, according to the editors of the English edition of Luther's works.

 

I've got a very busy day ahead of me and unfortunately don't now have the time to address your thinking. I'll jump back into this discussion in the next couple days and help you out a bit. In the meantime, to prevent additional embarrassment you might want to read up a bit better on Luther's view on the difference between the ceremonial law and the moral or natural law. Once you have understood that distinction please familiarize yourself as to what Luther believed made any day the Sabbath.

These things are not hard things to find and of course you are welcome to go ask a Lutheran Pastor or Seminarian Professor if they believed Luther taught Abraham kept "the 7 day Sabbath" as the Israelites kept it after Moses and because of the long slavery in Egypt the Israelites simply forgot about it so God had to remind the of the 7th day Sabbath that Adam taught his children who in turn taught their children so that even the heathen nations in ancient times observed the 7th day sabbath. 

rest assured, I'll be back. 

 

 

 

[GHansen]

Gustave, I've been as clear as I can regarding the Sabbath in the NT and Luther's view of the Sabbath in patriarchal times. If you don't agree with my assessment, that's fine.  Not really interested in arguing, just for the sake of argument

[Gustave]

16 hours ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, I've been as clear as I can regarding the Sabbath in the NT and Luther's view of the Sabbath in patriarchal times. If you don't agree with my assessment, that's fine.  Not really interested in arguing, just for the sake of argument

 

That's just it, there hasn't been an argument here - just your denial of what Luther actually believed. 

 

"Thus it is not true that there is no ceremonial or judicial law in the ten commandments. Such laws are in the decalogue, depend on it,  and belong there. And to indicate this God Himself HAS EXPRESSLY INTRODUCED TWO CEREMONIAL LAWS, namely concerning images AND THE SABBATH.( Luther 1525 , Against the Heavenly Prophets, page 92 )

The definition for "introduce" = "Bring (something, especially a product, measure or concept) into use or operation FOR THE FIRST TIME.

In direct contradiction to what Luther taught you assert Luther believed that the Sabbath was passed down from Adam, the other early who's who in the Bible, made it into Noah's Ark and continued sprinting on from there. NOT!

To say it again, Luther believed the Ten Commandments were ROOTED IN NATURAL OR MORAL LAW and that this could be proven by simply acknowledging that ancient societies / Nations well outside of Israel - some of which had no contact with Israel had what equated to the Ten Commandments in their own laws and histories. 

To say it again, man is compelled by nature to set aside some time to pay honor to what he believes are God(s), people are compelled by nature to know stealing and murder is wrong - to dishonor ones parents, etc. Man was NEVER "compelled by nature" to avoid eating shrimp or pork chops -  same as man was not compelled by Nature to set aside the equivalent of a Gregorian Saturday as the Sabbath - this is an unavoidable fact. 

It might save you a lot of time and stress if you simply researched what Luther believed about the Moral or Natural Law of God  Vs. what Luther believed about the Ceremonial or Judicial Law of of God. You could look at Luther's arguments about how God chastised the heathen nations for violating the moral or Natural law but never chastised the heathen for violating the ceremonial or Judicial laws (Laws given to the Jews). This might save you a bunch of time and stress. 

I'm putting together a bunch of other quotes from Luther that come from both his small and large Catechism, Against the Heavenly Prophets & Against the Sabbatarians. If you haven't accepted the basics about what I'm saying ( & educated Lutheran's are saying about Luther ) perhaps the quotes I'm putting together will aid you in getting to a place of peace on this subject. 

 

 

[GHansen]

Gustave, You already admitted that the quote I provided, Luther's comment on Genesis 26:5, indicated that Luther believed Abraham kept the Sabbath. His comments on Genesis 2:3 indicate he believed Adam kept it . This is what he believed, as evinced in his comments on Genesis:

Luther believed that Abraham kept the 7th day Sabbath in a literal sense as it was passed down to him through the family of Noah, who were contemporaries of Adam.

Luther believed that a major apostasy occurred in the world through the influence of Nimrod; consequently much of the moral/natural law was lost sight of.

God called Abraham, through Shem, to reestablish God's way in the earth, including the Sabbath.

I'm familiar with all the sources you have mentioned. No need to provide quotes. The issue which I addressed was what Luther believed about Abraham and the Sabbath. Abraham is not mentioned one time in "Against the Heavenly Prophets." I don't know what you actually asked your scholar acquaintance. It should have been "What did Luther believe about Abraham and the Sabbath?" That's the issue we were discussing. Since he referred you to "Against the Heavenly Prophets," which doesn't even mention Abraham, you probably  asked the wrong question.

What Luther believed about the Sabbath in general is not an issue for me. I only mentioned that Luther believed Abraham kept the Sabbath because you erroneously said that neither Luther or Calvin believed that he did. The larger issue of Luther's beliefs about the Ten commandments and his belief that the proscription against images and the Sabbath were ceremonial is just a mistaken belief that Luther held. It's nonsense, consequent to his erroneous views of the Decalogue. I've owned 55 volumes of Luther's Works for ~20 years and read, in their entirety, all the works to which you referred.  He plainly stated in his Genesis Commentary that Abraham kept the Sabbath. If you have a quote from any of your sources which says that Abraham did not keep the Sabbath, I'd like to see it. 

[GHansen]

Gustave, i was wrong. Luther's Works are published by Concordia Publishing House, not Augsburg Fortress.

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, i was wrong. Luther's Works are published by Concordia Publishing House, not Augsburg Fortress.

 

Thanks, I think I've already read what you've been referring to. Is it Luther's commentary on Genesis 2? 

In your referencing where you believe Luther believed Adam would have taught his posterity the Saturday Sabbath 7th day was the following a part of the commentary your referring to: 

 

And,

 

I'm asking because I want to make sure I'm reading the same thing you are so my question is are you and I reading the same thing as I posted above and is this same commentary where you have concluded that Luther believed what you said? 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GHansen]

Gustave, All the quotes from Luther I've posted include a detailed reference. Many of the quotes regarding Shem and  Noah and Nimrod are in volume  2 of The Concordia edition of Luther's Works. Too much material scattered over too many pages to post it all here. As a matter of method, considering this is social media rather than an academic environment, I've tried to stay focused on narrow topics. I've tried to do that by providing quotes which indicate that Luther believed Abraham kept the Sabbath. That remark he made in his comments on Genesis 26:5 is in volume 5. The larger issues of Luther's views on the Sabbath or the different laws are a bit much for a social media discussion, especially since they are all being referred to at the same time

Here's a quote from volume 1 [Gen. 2:3] regarding Adam: 

"Indeed, even after the Fall he kept this seventh day sacred; that is, on this day he instructed his family, of which the sacrifices of his sons Cain and Abel give the proof. Therefore from the beginning of the world the Sabbath was intended for the worship of God."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 1, pp. 79–80). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

The remarks in the Genesis commentary, vol. 5, are specifically about Abraham and the Sabbath. The remarks about Shem and Adam in volumes 1 and 2 include the Sabbath. Due to Luther's chronology and his beliefs about Shem and Abraham. there is a direct line from Adam to Abraham. It's not difficult to grasp. Adam received the Sabbath from God when he was created. He taught it to his family. That knowledge was ultimately preserved in Shem who taught it to Abraham. Luther believed both Noah and Shem outlived Abraham.

"Noah saw his grandsons up to the tenth generation, for he died when Abraham was fifty-eight years old. Shem outlived Abraham by thirty-five years. Therefore he lived for one hundred and ten years together with Isaac and for fifty years together with Jacob and Esau."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 2: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 6-14. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 2, p. 230). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

[Gustave]

I've also just inquired about this question to the Lutheran Missouri Synod, framing the question in the same way that I did for the prior request for clarification at the other Lutheran Seminary. Here is how I worded it. 

"I'm having a discussion with a Seventh-day Adventist about Martin Luther's belief pertaining to the Sabbath between the creation event and Moses' giving of the Law. The Adventist's position is that Luther believed and taught that Abraham observed the 7th day Sabbath that was the same as todays Gregorian Saturday & also claims that Abraham learned about the Sabbath from his predecessors - doting back to Adam. This Sabbath Abraham is alleged to have observed would be equivalent or the same as todays Saturday so that if one were to wind back the clock of time it would be discovered that Abraham (and those prior to him) met for worship on the same day Jews and Seventh-day Adventists currently hold their worship services. 

I disagreed with the SDA position as my understanding of Luther was that the day itself wasn't / isn't important but what happens on the day. I understood Luther as teaching that Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc. would have observed the 3rd Commandment in the "Moral" or 'Natural" way and that Luther taught that God introduced the "Ceremonial / Judicial"  aspects of the 3rd Commandment to the Jews when Moses gave the ten commandments. My question is fairly narrow in that we are interested in what Luther's belief and teaching was about the CEREMONIAL LAW and what the definition of observing the 3rd Commandment from a "moral" or "natural" perspective Vs observing it from a "ceremonial or Judicial" perspective - of course the big question was did Abraham observe the 3rd Commandment from a moral or natural position or did he observe it from a ceremonial position? If one wound time back to the days of Abraham would we find Abraham worshiping God on the same day the SDA's and Jews worship? 

 

My logic chain is straight forward - I know that Luther had a clear distinction between the moral and ceremonial aspects to the Sabbath - Luther maintained this concept from the inception of the Reformation to his death. If, as Luther said, God "introduced" the ceremonial aspects of Sabbath in the Decalogue what is the ONLY ceremonial aspect of the Sabbath in the ten commandments? The answer of course would be THE TIMING the observance was to take place. I.E. a person living during the Shang Dynasty in China would not be compelled to observe "the 7th day Sabbath" anymore than someone in the Norte-Chico civilization - but both these cultures would have had a natural or moral duty to set aside time for worship or honor of their Deities. As Luther noted,  ancient cultures had laws against murder, stealing, disrespecting ones parents, etc. as these were are "natural or moral" to mankind. 

Luther:  "Similarly, the third commandment concerning the Sabbath, of which the Jews make so much, is per se a commandment that applies to the whole world; BUT THE FORM IN WHICH MOSES FRAMES IT AND ADAPTS IT TO HIS PEOPLE WAS IMPOSED ONLY ON THE JEWS.....Luther's Works, The Christian in Society IV, page 91

Now, maybe Luther believed Abraham, Noah, Enoch and Adam & Eve were all "Jews". If This is the case about Luther than I'm likely WRONG and you are right. The indications from the 1st Lutheran seminary I asked indicated to me that Luther believed that Abraham would have observed the 3rd commandment in "the moral sense" which would be a manner unlike Moses gave to the Jews. I'll let everyone know what I hear back from the Lutheran Missouri Synod when they respond. 

The other part of my Logic chain is that Luther maintained that ALL 10 Commandments were implanted by God into the heart at creation and by propagation every time a birth takes place. Luther said that the 10 Commandments preceded Moses and offered as proof the histories of all ancient cultures who's laws and practices established they had the Ten Commandments written on their hearts. I am unaware of ANY ancient Cultures, Chinese, Greek, Sumerian, etc. that observed "the 7 day Sabbath" that coincided with a Gregorian Saturday if one were to wind the clock backwards.  

The book I ordered came was delivered tonight (Luther's Works, The Christian in Society IV). I'll see how far I get tomorrow with it with what else I've got going on. 

 

 

 

 

 

[GHansen]

Gustave, I made it very clear that the question I addressed was this: "Did Luther believe that Abraham observed the 7th day Sabbath." I never said anything about calendars, Gregorian or otherwise. The Sabbath is observed at different times, depending on where people are located. If you wound back time, Abraham would not be observing Sabbath at the same time as people in Missouri. then or now. I never mentioned Luther's distinctions between the  ceremonial and moral and natural aspects of the Decalogue/law  other than to say Luther was wrong about that. Frankly, your question is worded in such a way that it confuses a very simple matter i.e.,  "Did Luther believe that Abraham kept the 7th day Sabbath?" The answer is a vey simple yes. His comments on Genesis 26:5 prove that. You already admitted that. Chaplain Matthews acknowledge your admission of error. Are you now repudiating your confession?

I should also make it clear that I am not a member of the 7th day Adventist denomination. 

I'll repeat myself: Luther believed that the 7th day Sabbath was given to Adam in Eden. Adam kept the Sabbath after the Fall. It was passed along with the truths of God through his descendants. These men included Adam, Seth, Noah and Shem  Shem, in particular, who Luther identified as Melchisedec, passed the knowledge of the pre flood world and worship of the true God to Abraham. This knowlege would have included that of the 7th day Sabbath.

If you want to read Luther for his insights into Christian faith and developing a redemptive relationship with Christ, you can download 8 volumes of his sermons for free: Sermons (martinluther.us)

[Gregory Matthews]

As a point of information:  our friend G. Hansen has been extensively posting websites (multiple) that discuss the teachings of Martin Luther since 2010.  

In the interests of his personal privacy, I am not listing those websites publicly.   If he wants to so list them here, he may do so.  But, that will be his choice.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I believe that the following public quote may enlighten us as to the background of our friend, G. Hansen:

NOTE:  As the following is public, and much more, I do not consider my posting of it as a violation of any kind of confidentiality.

[NOTE:  G. Hanser has informed me that he is not a Seminary professor--Gregory Matthews.]

Quote

Guillermo César Hansen joined the Luther Seminary faculty in 2008 as associate professor of systematic theology. A native of Buenos Aires, Argentina, Hansen served as tenured professor of systematic theology and ethics (1996-2008), as chairperson of the department of systematic theology (2000-2008) and director of post-graduate and doctoral studies (2003-2008) at ISEDET – Ecumenical Theological University, Buenos Aires, Argentina. Beginning in 2006 Hansen served as vice president of the United Evangelical Lutheran Church of Argentina and Uruguay.

[Gustave]

6 hours ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, I made it very clear that the question I addressed was this: "Did Luther believe that Abraham observed the 7th day Sabbath." I never said anything about calendars, Gregorian or otherwise. The Sabbath is observed at different times, depending on where people are located. If you wound back time, Abraham would not be observing Sabbath at the same time as people in Missouri. then or now. I never mentioned Luther's distinctions between the  ceremonial and moral and natural aspects of the Decalogue/law  other than to say Luther was wrong about that. Frankly, your question is worded in such a way that it confuses a very simple matter i.e.,  "Did Luther believe that Abraham kept the 7th day Sabbath?" The answer is a vey simple yes. His comments on Genesis 26:5 prove that. You already admitted that. Chaplain Matthews acknowledge your admission of error. Are you now repudiating your confession?

I should also make it clear that I am not a member of the 7th day Adventist denomination. 

I'll repeat myself: Luther believed that the 7th day Sabbath was given to Adam in Eden. Adam kept the Sabbath after the Fall. It was passed along with the truths of God through his descendants. These men included Adam, Seth, Noah and Shem  Shem, in particular, who Luther identified as Melchisedec, passed the knowledge of the pre flood world and worship of the true God to Abraham. This knowlege would have included that of the 7th day Sabbath.

If you want to read Luther for his insights into Christian faith and developing a redemptive relationship with Christ, you can download 8 volumes of his sermons for free: Sermons (martinluther.us)

Oh, so you are saying that Abraham observed the 7th day Sabbath and that the observation of the  the 7th day Sabbath could have been on any day of the week and at any time on whatever day it was Abraham was observing? If this is what you meant (that the ancients had a weekly time they lived out the moral or natural sense of 3rd commandments.) I HAVE NO AGRUMENT WITH YOU. Is this what you're saying - that the ancients mentioned in the Bible were not worshipping on the equivalent of a Gregorian Saturday and therefore Abraham could have observed the Sabbath the equivalent of a Gregorian Tuesday? 

If this is what you're saying I just spent money on buying the Luther's Work's series that I didn't need t! 

 

 

[Gustave]

GHansen,  everyone knows that the earth is round and Saturday for one person could be different than someone else living on another part of the planet. This isn't what I was talking about - if someone today who lived in the same area Abraham lived were to wind back the clock backwards from a current Saturday and substract cycling 7 day weeks all the way back to Abraham I'm saying that Abraham WOUDN'T have been observing the same day (whatever the day would have been called back then) as Jew's or SdA's in that same area say is "the 7th day Sabbath". 

I'm hanging my argument on Luther's holding the same understanding about the "ceremonial" law that I do - that anything above and beyond natural or moral law is ceremonial and came by means of supernatural communication. 

The Jews weren't separated from the other nations because they had the Ten Commandments - because EVERYONE on the planet had the Ten Commandments. The Jews were separated from the other nations by the things ALIEN to all the other nations of the world - things the Jews couldn't have known without supernatural communication. God got these special instructions to the Jews NOT THE CHINESE or Aztec Indians. 

[Gustave]

GHansen, if you would be willing to do so could you explain or describe Luther's teaching on the difference between the Moral and Natural law? Did Luther believe that there was an aspect of the 3rd Commandment that was ceremonial or Judicial - if so what was it? 

 

[GHansen]

Luther's comments on the Sabbath in his Genesis commentary say that Abraham kept the same Sabbath that Adam kept in Eden prior to the Fall and that Adam continued to keep it after the Fall. That knowledge was passed down and conveyed to Abraham by Shem/Melchisedec. If you believe there has been a confusion of which day is actually the 7th day, that's another issue entirely, one which is beyond the scope of our conversation from my viewpoint. You said that Luther did not believe Abraham did not keep the Sabbath. That's false. Luther did believe Abraham kept the Sabbath, the same one Adam kept.

As for Luther's view of the third commandment, actually the fourth, if that is something that interests you, you'll have to solve that questions yourself. Same for his views on the difference between the  natural, moral, and ceremonial laws. Luther was confused about those things.  

[GHansen]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I believe that the following public quote may enlighten us as to the background of our friend, G. Hansen:

NOTE:  As the following is public, and much more, I do not consider my posting of it as a violation of any kind of confidentiality.

 

Chaplain Matthews, Guillermo César Hansen  and i are not the same person.

[Gregory Matthews]

Thank you and I have so posted in my post.

 

[Gustave]

5 hours ago, GHansen said:

Luther's comments on the Sabbath in his Genesis commentary say that Abraham kept the same Sabbath that Adam kept in Eden prior to the Fall and that Adam continued to keep it after the Fall. That knowledge was passed down and conveyed to Abraham by Shem/Melchisedec. If you believe there has been a confusion of which day is actually the 7th day, that's another issue entirely, one which is beyond the scope of our conversation from my viewpoint. You said that Luther did not believe Abraham did not keep the Sabbath. That's false. Luther did believe Abraham kept the Sabbath, the same one Adam kept.

As for Luther's view of the third commandment, actually the fourth, if that is something that interests you, you'll have to solve that questions yourself. Same for his views on the difference between the  natural, moral, and ceremonial laws. Luther was confused about those things.  

Did not Luther, in his numbering, number the Sabbath Commandment as the 3rd Commandment?  I'm curious, are you a Christadelphian by Chance? 

[GHansen]

On 8/1/2021 at 4:03 AM, Gustave said:

Did not Luther, in his numbering, number the Sabbath Commandment as the 3rd Commandment?  I'm curious, are you a Christadelphian by Chance? 

Gustave, I noticed a couple of web pages that discuss the change of the Sabbath and the impact of the Gregorian calendar on Sabbath observance. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the information and am not really interested in discussing it, since they are not my sources; however, it is possible that you may be able to correspond with someone from the website.

counciloftrentonsundayworship (hsapm.org)

Hasn't the calendar been changed? | Sabbath Truth

[Gustave]

5 hours ago, GHansen said:

Gustave, I noticed a couple of web pages that discuss the change of the Sabbath and the impact of the Gregorian calendar on Sabbath observance. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the information and am not really interested in discussing it, since they are not my sources; however, it is possible that you may be able to correspond with someone from the website.

counciloftrentonsundayworship (hsapm.org)

Hasn't the calendar been changed? | Sabbath Truth

Thanks GHansen,

I don't believe that there was a change (loss or addition) of actual time between the Julian & Gregorian whereas the day of the week was concerned. I use or say Gregorian to indicate the current time frame. There is no doubt that since recorded history began people have recorded time differently at different times. One example would be the Talmudic innovation of counting days starting at the evening time or sunset of the current day. That would have been an alien concept to Moses. 

[Gustave]

Just now, Gustave said:

Thanks GHansen,

I don't believe that there was a change (loss or addition) of actual time between the Julian & Gregorian whereas the day of the week was concerned. I use or say Gregorian to indicate the current time frame. There is no doubt that since recorded history began people have recorded time differently at different times. One example would be the Talmudic innovation of counting days starting at the evening time or sunset of the current day. That would have been an alien concept to Moses. 

 

I would add that it was Sacred Tradition that confirmed Sacred Scripture as Sacred Tradition existed prior to the Scriptures being written AND Sacred Tradition was what was used to validate what was Canonical and what wasn't. In that way Tradition WAS the test for what became Scripture and what was outside of Scripture. 

[BlessedMan]

On 6/12/2021 at 6:44 AM, B/W Photodude said:

"amalgamation"

This has been a favourite target of people who wish to jab at the Adventist church because its an easy one to get people confused on. In context, most statements like this don't hold water. I have stopped worrying about this statement. Not a lot of sense to it all IMO

PS Yes, I am aware that BW did not make this statement and that he was quoting from another forum member.

Edited August 14, 2021 by BlessedMan

[GHansen]

On 7/31/2021 at 12:13 AM, GHansen said:

Gustave, All the quotes from Luther I've posted include a detailed reference. Many of the quotes regarding Shem and  Noah and Nimrod are in volume  2 of The Concordia edition of Luther's Works. Too much material scattered over too many pages to post it all here. As a matter of method, considering this is social media rather than an academic environment, I've tried to stay focused on narrow topics. I've tried to do that by providing quotes which indicate that Luther believed Abraham kept the Sabbath. That remark he made in his comments on Genesis 26:5 is in volume 5. The larger issues of Luther's views on the Sabbath or the different laws are a bit much for a social media discussion, especially since they are all being referred to at the same time

Here's a quote from volume 1 [Gen. 2:3] regarding Adam: 

"Indeed, even after the Fall he kept this seventh day sacred; that is, on this day he instructed his family, of which the sacrifices of his sons Cain and Abel give the proof. Therefore from the beginning of the world the Sabbath was intended for the worship of God."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 1-5. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 1, pp. 79–80). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

The remarks in the Genesis commentary, vol. 5, are specifically about Abraham and the Sabbath. The remarks about Shem and Adam in volumes 1 and 2 include the Sabbath. Due to Luther's chronology and his beliefs about Shem and Abraham. there is a direct line from Adam to Abraham. It's not difficult to grasp. Adam received the Sabbath from God when he was created. He taught it to his family. That knowledge was ultimately preserved in Shem who taught it to Abraham. Luther believed both Noah and Shem outlived Abraham.

"Noah saw his grandsons up to the tenth generation, for he died when Abraham was fifty-eight years old. Shem outlived Abraham by thirty-five years. Therefore he lived for one hundred and ten years together with Isaac and for fifty years together with Jacob and Esau."

Luther, M. (1999). Luther’s works, vol. 2: Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 6-14. (J. J. Pelikan, H. C. Oswald, & H. T. Lehmann, Eds.) (Vol. 2, p. 230). Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House.

This remark I made: "That knowledge was ultimately preserved in Shem who taught it to Abraham. Luther believed both Noah and Shem outlived Abraham" is contradicted by the following quote I cited: "Noah saw his grandsons up to the tenth generation, for he died when Abraham was fifty-eight years old." Mistake on my part.