Robert Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Shane said:Jews immirgrated to the area, bought land and settled down while it was under the rule of the Ottoman Empire. This is simular to the way that immirgrants move to the US, buy land and settle down. They didn't steal any land. They moved there and bought it. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Then, like the immigrants who came here, why are the Jews under their own rule instead of the government that they purchased the land from....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 21, 2006 Moderators Share Posted July 21, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> You're missing the point! The land doesn't belong to Israel...they lost it just like the Indians lost the land here. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> How does the song go? [:"blue"]"This land is mine, God gave this land to me...." [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted July 21, 2006 Share Posted July 21, 2006 The story is not quite as simple as you describe, but your description is much more accurate than the general notion of them being given the land by Britain. Extending from, not contradicting, Shane's account (1) The British Govt was very two-faced about it all, and did a lot to inhibit the returning of Jew's to Israel - read "Exodus" by Leon Uris (2) There are peaceful Arab towns in the State of Israel - I have personally walked through one near Haifa without feeling any more personally in danger than here in NH (3) There is a settler movement in Israel that was and is consciously and deliberately trying to forcibly obtain more land - especially in the occupied territories. The approach is to surreptiously build defensible hill-top enclaves out beyond the edge of the currently held territory, then move in more settlers, until it is secured, then build the next outpost. The Israeli Govt finds it very hard to deal with this movement - it has destroyed some of the settlements, but by no means all. Personally I understand both the Arab grievance about their land being taken from them (Shane, do you have any numbers on what % of the land of Israel was bought, and who it was bought from?), and the Israeli desire for a secure homeland. I think we should give the Israeli's North Dakota <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Since that won't happen, the next best thing would be to teach the Palestinians how to be prosperous on the land that is available to them. Intel Corporation recently opened a facility in Gaza. This is the kind of aid that is really needed - not the Bush administration's pulling of the plug when they democratically elected a govt Bush didn't like. /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 I don't know what percentage of the land was bought by jews. Since the original UN plan split the land somewhere around 55% to 45% I would hope that number would be close. I know it isn't as simple as I outlined, I was trying to keep it somewhat short. My concern with the democratically-elected Hamas is if they will allow future free elections or now that they are in control is that the end of free elections in Palestine. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 21, 2006 Author Share Posted July 21, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> why are the Jews under their own rule instead of the government that they purchased the land from....? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> The Jews didn't buy the land from a government. They bought it from other land owners - some Arabs and some Ottoman Turks. The ruling government at the time, the Ottoman Empire, was defeated during WW1. The property then came under Brittish rule. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 21, 2006 Moderators Share Posted July 21, 2006 My brother has a Jewish dentist friend in the casino who sends a lot of money to Israel for that very purpose, i.e. buy land from Palestinians so they could move in Jews. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 22, 2006 Moderators Share Posted July 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Robert said: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Aliensanctuary said: Maybe if I were a Jew living in Israel, I'd be trying to destroy Hezbollah and Co. too. Unless, of course, they renounced murder and mayhem and inborn hatred and decided to live in peace. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Hmmm? Returning evil for evil....Nice.... <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> [:"blue"]If the gospel, per your teaching, doesn't stop people from returning evil for evil, what do you expect? [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Gerry Cabalo said: If the gospel, per your teaching, doesn't stop people from returning evil for evil, what do you expect? Gerry <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Try to get this straight: The gospel is what Christ, in our humanity, did 2000 years ago. It is not what He does in you....Stop confusing the two or you'll end up perverting the gospel (which you do). SDA are known for talking the law, the law, the law. Yet many (like yourself) are warmongers because they are ready to defend themselves at the drop of a hat by rationalizing bloodshed and war. The NT, however, does teach this. The last generation of Christians will "love not their lives unto death"! If you are going to follow the law you will not render evil for evil. You will love your enemies....You will not practice an eye for eye and tooth for a tooth. Got that? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Gerry Cabalo said:How does the song go? [:"blue"]"This land is mine, God gave this land to me...." [/]Gerry <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> You're confused! Heb 8:11 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger [:"red"]in a foreign country[/]; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God [the heavenly promised land]....13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Canaan was a type of heaven....It was symbolic. The real issue is heaven, not the "hole-ly land" were people are killing each other daily. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aliensanctuary Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Well, Jesus did teach us to return good for evil. I suppose trying to destroy our enemies doesn't quite follow that plan. If someone pointed a gun at Jesus and told him to give back the land, he might say something like, "I don't own any land, but whatever I have is yours. I'd like to share some Living Water with you. Would you like to join me for dinner?" Perhaps the Arabs were angry because they became outnumbered and lost control of the country they were born and raised in. We might feel that way too if the Muslim population where we lived suddenly surged. Everywhere we looked there were Muslims in white robes and turbans. Muslims were now in control of the political systems, the schools, the centers of worship, the businesses, the money, the language, etc. Gone are many of the people and places we once knew. Now there are strange laws that we don't even believe in, but have to obey. Of course we can accept change, be resilient, and move on, but if we are extremely self-centered and fanatical, we now have an enemy to get rid of, any way we possibly can. With no rules and no honor, anything is possible, and permissible, to destroy whoever is preventing us from getting what we want. Maybe, if only women were allowed to be politicians, and only women were allowed in the military, there wouldn't be nearly so many wars and armed conflicts. Women may tend to value life more because they have to carry it for nine months. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 22, 2006 Author Share Posted July 22, 2006 I don't believe the council Jesus gave us regarding our personal relationships with others applies to how nations are to treat each other. There was a time when God gave instructions to a nation and that nation was Israel and He wasn't telling them to return evil with good. I think we get off on a tangent when we start expecting civil governments to follow the advice Christ gave us regarding our personal relationships. I think what Israel is doing is way over blown. I think they are completely over-reacting to the situation. However I am not one that believes they are to do nothing and turn their national cheek everytime a terrorist blows someone up. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aliensanctuary Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 I got out of bed a couple of nights ago and turned on the TV thinking, "The terrorists used a row boat to take a nuclear weapon to Tel Aviv, and blew it up." I was relieved to see only Jay Leno just joking around. Quote The Parable of the Lamb and the Pigpen https://www.createspace.com/3401451 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 22, 2006 Moderators Share Posted July 22, 2006 Yes, Canaan was symbolic of heaven, but there was also a literal Canaan. [:"blue"]"And the LORD said to Abram after Lot had separated from him: 'Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are - northward, southward, eastward, and westward; for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants FOREVER." Gen 13:14,15 NKJ. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted July 22, 2006 Moderators Share Posted July 22, 2006 It is not good news if it does nothing to change an evil person to become good. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Aliensanctuary said:Maybe, if only women were allowed to be politicians, and only women were allowed in the military, there wouldn't be nearly so many wars and armed conflicts. Women may tend to value life more because they have to carry it for nine months. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Oh boy...women must be naturally more righteous! Not! At work us guys might get mad...turn different shades of red, but in a day or two we are okay....No grudges, etc.... But where my wife works (and she mainly works with women) there's constant turmoil....It literally takes years to move on. So no, I'll be a male chauvinist pig and opt for the guys...although a mixture of both males and females might be the best. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Gerry Cabalo said: It is not good news if it does nothing to change an evil person to become good. Gerry <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> The Bible doesn't say that it's not good news IF....The gospel is the unconditional good news of Christ saving the human race in Himself. Please don't add to his perfect righteousness. Thanks, Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Shane said: There was a time when God gave instructions to a nation and that nation was Israel and He wasn't telling them to return evil with good. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> God never intended Israel to have a visible king, He did not reject them when they claimed one. And their motive for this perfidy? "That we may be like all the nations" (1 Samuel 8:19). God warned them of the results of their choice, but He did not reject them for it. Did they, early on, desire to wage war "like" the Egyptians? But in the case of their choosing a king, God expressed His disapproval. Do we have a Biblical example where humans defied God's ideal will without His expressing disapproval and also without His rejecting them for it? Yes. In their practice of slavery and polygamy, which most Christians now agree were not in God's original plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Gerry Cabalo said:"And the LORD said to Abram after Lot had separated from him: 'Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are - northward, southward, eastward, and westward; for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants FOREVER." Gen 13:14,15 NKJ. Gerry <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Yes and that was on condition of accepting Jesus Christ....After the Jews, through legalism, refused Jesus Christ and by default the gospel, Christ turned to the Gentile world. We are to deliver the gospel both to the Jew and Greek. So that land thing means nothing....It's worthless dirt! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Robert said: Yes and that was on condition of accepting Jesus Christ <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> ....After the Jews, through legalism, refused Jesus Christ and by default the gospel, Christ turned to the Gentile world. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. Matt 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house [i.e., Jerusalem] is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 22, 2006 Author Share Posted July 22, 2006 A civil government is to protect its citizens. That is the most basic requirement of any government. To protect its citizens a government needs a police force and a military. The police are to protect it from domestic enemies and the military is to protect it from forgien enemies. It is a bit more complex but that is keeping it simple and applies to governments throughout the history of the world. Christ did not teach against any civil government having either a police force or a military. Some anti-war Christians want to quote the sermon on the mount and make it applicable to nations. OK, Jesus said, "That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other" So if we witness someone raping our daughter, should we give them out other daughter to rape to? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kountzer Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 What are you talking about?? Quote I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. Frederick Douglass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 22, 2006 Author Share Posted July 22, 2006 Aliensanctuary: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Well, Jesus did teach us to return good for evil. I suppose trying to destroy our enemies doesn't quite follow that plan. If someone pointed a gun at Jesus and told him to give back the land, he might say something like, "I don't own any land, but whatever I have is yours. I'd like to share some Living Water with you. Would you like to join me for dinner?" <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Shane: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> There was a time when God gave instructions to a nation and that nation was Israel and He wasn't telling them to return evil with good. I think we get off on a tangent when we start expecting civil governments to follow the advice Christ gave us regarding our personal relationships. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Robert: </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> God never intended Israel to have a visible king, He did not reject them when they claimed one. And their motive for this perfidy? "That we may be like all the nations" (1 Samuel 8:19). God warned them of the results of their choice, but He did not reject them for it. Did they, early on, desire to wage war "like" the Egyptians? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Shane said: Christ did not teach against any civil government having either a police force or a military. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> He taught not to kill. He taught that he who lived by the sword died by the sword. He taught to seek peace and not violence. He taught that it was better to die than to seek revenge. That's Christ, but civil governments belong to what the Bible terms "the kingdoms of this world". </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Some anti-war Christians want to quote the sermon on the mount and make it applicable to nations. OK, Jesus said, "That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other" So if we witness someone raping our daughter, should we give them out other daughter to rape to? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> No, you should buy a gun and put a bullet in his head! Isn't that what Jesus would do? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> No? Look (and this is going to sound callous)...anyone with brains should know that this world is a very unstable and unsafe place. So why do we bring kids into this world and then act surprised when stuff goes bad? I'll tell you if I had the brains when I was younger I wouldn't bring a child into this world...not on purpose anyway. See...we can't love our enemies. Human love is incapable of loving one's enemies. But if you render evil for evil you will always have bloodshed. That's why the Bible tells Christians (not governments) that "if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.” Just keep in mind your government might lock you up for aiding the enemy! The bottom line is this: It is better live under the worst of governments then to have no government at all. However, we must not think that governments and heaven are on the same side. Even here they are diametrically opposed. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldona Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 This is not a reply to any specific person, just joining the thread. Both sides are killing people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong. "An eye for an eye" is slowly making the whole Middle East blind. Here are some images that you will NOT find on CNN. (Warning: EXTREMELY GRAPHIC IMAGES! If gruesome pictures of war and violence offend you, DO NOT click on this link.) From Israel to Lebanon This, my friends, is the reality of war. We can sit here comfortably pontificating about the rights or wrongs of both sides, but unless we are comfortable with these sorts of outcomes (on BOTH sides), it all starts to sound very hollow. aldona Quote www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne)Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each monthIMSLP/Petrucci Music LibraryThe Public Domain Music Score Library - Free Sheet Music DownloadsLooking for classical sheet music? Try IMSLP first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 22, 2006 Author Share Posted July 22, 2006 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> He taught not to kill. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> He taught not to murder and that hatred in the heart comes before murder. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> He taught that it was better to die than to seek revenge. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Justifiable war is about defense, not revenge. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.