Israel

[Stan]

Makes me wonder if they would prefer a genocide... We must be missing some facts, this war seems even crazier than the Iraqi war

[Dr. Shane]

If the hostages taken had been civilians, I could understand Israel risking the lives of soldiers in order to save the lives of civilians. I still don't think it would have been a good idea, but at least I would understand it. As it is, by going to war, they place the lives of civilians at risk in order to save the lives of soldiers.

I agree, we must be missing some facts.

[bevin]

We are seeing the tip of the iceberg, there is a LOT going on underneath.

Where did Hezbollah get the money to but 10,000+ missiles. Who is manning them? Where is the Lebanese military?

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

I think we have to agree there. Now with the Hezbollah-Iran connection one has to become increasingly uneasy about Iran gaining nuclear weapons.

[lazarus]

Of course I could be very wrong on this:

I think the US gave Israel the green light to do what they are doing. I think the broader aim is to set the stage for a Iran/Syria confrontation. I think the administration's calculation is better to do it now than later. They were not getting much traction with the Iran feeding the Iraq insurgency angle. This whole Lebanon thing is bearing more "political fruit".

The neocons, religious right and republican political stratergists see war with Iran as the perhaps the best solotion to Bush's political challenges. Of course they all have different reasons.

[Dr. Shane]

I would hope that prespective is very wrong.

Bush is never going to run for re-election again. He has been quoted as saying he is not concerned about his legacy and his low ratings in the polls for such a long time seems to be consistant with that. Although we may disagee with things that the President is doing, he seems to be motivated by what he believes to be right and wrong, not which way a political wind is blowing. Yesterday's veto is a good example. With midterm elections coming up, it was not wise for him to veto a bill that is popular with many Americans and within Republicans ranks as well.

I suspect the US did give Israel the green light and perhaps many think Israel is doing the world a favor by getting rid of a bunch of these terrorists. I tend to think it is an injustaice that Israel is destroying a nation over a small inicident that happened with a handful of their soldiers.

I think of what goes on here on the Mexican border. We have drug lords (they are kind of like terrorists) that traffic drugs accross the border. The Mexican government is either too weak or too corrupt to stop it. Sometimes these drug lords shoot at our Border Patrol agents. Let's imagine that an incident happens that some of these drug lords kill some of our Border Patrol and kidnap a couple others. Would that give us the right to blow Mexico back a couple of decades like Israel is doing to Lebanon?

[lazarus]

check out buchanan's perspective...interesting

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/VIDEO__Matthews_Buchanan_Slam_Neocons_0720.html

[Dr. Shane]

We have to keep in mind that Pat Buchanon is an isolationist. He is against free trade. He is against immirgration. He has been against the US forgien policy in the first Gulf War and, of course, the Iraq War.

Pat Buchanan

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Buchanan believes U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East is supportive of and controlled by Israeli interests. Over the years, Buchanan has been a vocal critic of the State of Israel and of US policy toward it, though he does believe the country has the right to exist. In particular, he has argued that much American "meddling" in the Middle East is only done to appease and protect Israeli interests, and serves no legitimate American interests. Buchanan has referred to Capitol Hill as "Israeli-occupied territory." During the run-up to the Gulf War, Buchanan said "there are only two groups that are beating the drums for war in the Middle East -- the Israeli defense ministry and its 'amen corner' in the United States." He also believes the Middle East would have fewer problems if Israel gave the Palestineans their own state, but he was also critical of Yasser Arafat's leadership[15]. He compared the Battle of Jenin to the Auschwitz concentration camp, and accuses Israel of spying on the United States in many instances other than the well-publicized case of Jonathan Pollard (whom Buchanan calls a "treasonous snake").

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I heard him beating the same drum with Bill O'Reilly the other day.

[Gerr]

I don't agree with Buchanan on many issues, but in this instance I agree with him. Too many of our gov't officials in Washington are afraid of the Israeli/Jewish lobby. If you are labeled as anti-semitic/anti-Jewish, woe be unto you! Israel/Jewish lobby is the tail that is wagging the dog/USA. They get all kinds of arms from the USA. And they must have a siphon to the US treasury that takes at least $10 billion every year. We blindly support everything Israel does. We demand that Hezbollah return the kidnapped Israeli soldiers, but say nothing about the thousands that Israel holds in its jails. So in some ways their hatred against us is well deserved.

Gerry

[Robert]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Shane said: He is against free trade. He is against immirgration.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

You can tell you're a Bush man....

Free trade? No such thing for we have unfair trade.

Immirgration? No it's called illegal immirgration.

Both the unfair trade and illegal immirgration are great for the rich - i.e., corporate America. Face the facts.

Rob

[Robert]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Gerry Cabalo said: Israel/Jewish lobby is the tail that is wagging the dog/USA.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Actually it the Christian right that panders to the Jews. They lobby Washington with their religious nonsense. These folks think that if we don't protect "God's people" then God's going to get us.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

We blindly support everything Israel does. We demand that Hezbollah return the kidnapped Israeli soldiers, but say nothing about the thousands that Israel holds in its jails. So in some ways their hatred against us is well deserved.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Hmmm? Good point.

[Dr. Shane]

Not to sidetrak the thread but just to clarify. Free trade and immirgration are not partisan issues for the most part. Bush's policies are pretty much the same as Clinton's were and Bush the elder before him.

The point is that Buchanon is outside that bipartisan thought so the idea that he would be against helping Israel (while I might agree with him) is not that significant since he is quite radical as an isolationist.

[aldona]

More news on the war

Ordering people to evacuate and then bombing them as they do...

Deliberately targeting ambulances (what other purpose can that big red cross on the roof have, other than a target?)...

Seems to be getting dirtier and dirtier.

And I don't buy the whole "there are terrorists hiding among those unfortunate civilians" thing.

As another newspaper commentator (The Age, Melbourne) put it: Higher standards are expected of a sovereign state than of a terrorist organization.

aldona

[aldona]

Another article about ambulances being targeted

This one is from "The Australian" (right) and the previous article from the "Sydney Morning Herald" (left), just so nobody accuses me of bias.

aldona

[Dr. Shane]

Well, I don't excuse the excessive force used by Israel for a problem that isn't going to go away but... I do buy into the terrorists hiding among civilians. And as far as standards go, fighting un-uniformed terrorists is going to require any nation to lower their standards as it decreases the ability to distinguish the enemy from civilians. Bombing ambulances is going over the line unless 1) it was an accident or 2) they have intelligence that ambulances are being used as a cover for military operations.

[there buster]

Terrorists have repeatedly used ambulances to carry both ammunition and other terrorists.

Hezbollah has been sending rockets into Israel for months. And the Lebanese allow the Hezbollah to dwell among them. Actions have consequences.

Hezbollah intentionally mingles with civilians in order to maximize civillian casual6ies.

In fact, that's something that should make any professing Christian pause. The Israelis do their best to minimize civillian casualties on both sides, whild Hezbollah does their best to maximize civillian casualties on both sides.

This is like the tale of the Good Samaritan. Imagine if the man going down to Jericho, who was attacked by thieves had lived in today's moral atmosphere. If he was Jewish, and attacked, it would be because of the "long-term grievances" of his attacker. If he fought back and resisted them, he would just be "contributing to the cycle of violence." If, heaven forbid, he had actually killed one of these people who gratuitously attacked him, he would have been guilty of "disproportionate force." As it was, the Samaritan only made matters worse. By rescuiing the attacked man, he showed his "moral insensitivity" to the thieves.

[olger]

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[there buster]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I don't buy the whole "there are terrorists hiding among those unfortunate civilians" thing.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Jonathan Gurwitz: Peacekeeper suggestions seem silly in the face of terrorism

Web Posted: 07/25/2006 08:05 PM CDT

San Antonio Express-News

About that disproportionate response, of which Israel is accused and French Prime Minister Jacques Chirac is the chief European hand-wringer: Perhaps Chirac and his cohorts have forgotten the 77-day bombardment of Belgrade by NATO in 1999, the devastation of the Yugoslavian infrastructure and the immense collateral damage to civilian lives and property.

And that bombing campaign, in which French pilots played a crucial role, came after Serbian terrorists had crossed the Gallic frontier to kidnap how many gendarmes and after how many missiles fell on Paris? Sacré bleu!

It's nice that the international community has taken such a profound interest in events surrounding Israel, if not literally within Israel — as when suicide bombers and Hamas rockets take their toll on civilians. But the hypocrisy and other-worldliness of the commentary are really too much.

[:"blue"]Oh, those poor, innocent prisoners such as Samir Kuntar rotting away in Israeli prisons, allegedly snatched from Lebanon, for whose deserved freedom Hezbollah is valiantly fighting. Who is Samir Kuntar?

Smadar Haran Kaiser, writing in the Washington Post three years ago, described what happened to her husband, Danny, and her 4-year-old daughter, Einat, when terrorists from Lebanon launched an attack on the northern Israeli town of Nahariya in 1979:

"As police began to arrive, the terrorists took Danny and Einat down to the beach. There, according to eyewitnesses, one of them shot Danny in front of Einat so that his death would be the last sight she would ever see. Then he smashed my little girl's skull in against a rock with his rifle butt. That terrorist was Samir Kuntar." [/]

Then there are the calls for diplomacy to end the violence. "Yes, a cease-fire," the sophisticated set suggests. "Send Condi Rice and everyone will simply lay down their arms."

"The simple reflexive action of asking for a cease-fire is not something that is really appropriate in a situation like this," U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton dryly observed in an official statement. "How do you get a cease-fire with a terrorist organization? I'm not sure anybody's done that before and I'm not sure it's possible."

And there's the helpful suggestion of sending peacekeepers into the region. But as Michael Young, the opinion editor of Lebanon's Daily Star, writes in Slate, that's a tried and failed solution.

"A 2,000-man force known as UNIFIL has been present on the ground since 1978, and its expansion would be a logical step," Young notes. "But this plan will go nowhere if Hezbollah retains its weapons and can fire its rockets against Israel while hiding behind the international peacekeepers."

On Sept. 2, 2004, four years after the United Nations had certified Israel's complete withdrawal from Lebanese territory, the Security Council passed Resolution 1559, which called for "the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias" and "the extension of the control of the Government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory."

Of course, the only thing more fickle than the international community's commitment to help the Lebanese government achieve this goal is its selective sense of moral outrage. As the Security Council last week deliberated yet another resolution condemning Israel, Israeli Ambassador Dan Gillerman quoted Lebanon's communication's minister, who said, "Damascus gives the orders, Iran supplies the equipment, Israel reacts, and Lebanon is the victim."

And he quoted another official who said, "Hezbollah has not only kidnapped two Israeli soldiers, it has taken the whole of Lebanon hostage."

Then he addressed his Lebanese colleague at the United Nations:

"Your Excellency, you know deep down that if you could, you would add your own brave voice to those voices of your brave compatriots and colleagues. You know deep in your heart that if you could, you would be sitting here right next to me right now because you know that we are doing the right thing and that if we succeed, Lebanon will be the beneficiary.

"And I believe that most members around this table, as well as many in this chamber, including our neighbors, realize this reality."

------------------

So who is really responsible for Lebanese civillian deaths. The Israeli, trying to take out someone like Samir Kuntar, or someone like Samir Kuntar, who would gleefully hide among civillians?

[Neil D]

In my understanding of the situation there, racial prejudice drives the hatred between the two races. Isreal's govermental economic/social policys tend to reflect a favoritism to the Jewish settlements. No wonder that Palistine supports anything that would bring down the Isreali goverment.

In Lebanon, Hessbola[sp] has a support system to the civilians that is parrell to any religious system that gives economic support to it members. In a poor economic area, any family in crisis where means are given by the religious faction, Hessbola [sp], results in support for this same religous faction. The civilian population is responding to the military offensive with thier own means of support at the local level, which makes Isreal job tougher.

And the US tends to turn a blind eye to racial problems anyway....So it's no wonder that Isreal is right and Hessbola is wrong....

[there buster]

It's not racial.

Jews and Arabs are both semitic peoples.

Within Israel, sephardic (arabian) Jews are citizens. There are Arab Israeli citizens, who vote. There are no Jewish citizens of Lebanon or Egypt, for example. It's not racial.

Even granting your description of Hezbollah, that would make it a 'humanitarian' organization that routinely sends rockets into Israel.

So Hezbollah is sort of like the American Red Cross, if the Red Cross sent rockets into Montreal, and kidnapped Canadians.

[aldona]

From "The Australian" (the most right-wing newspaper I can find here).

[]http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/imagedata/0,1658,5198308,00.jpg[/]

[Dr. Shane]

I heard today that the UN workers that got killed had earlier complained that Hezbollah was setting up launching pads for their rockets next to them. Obviously their tactic is to do everything possible to cause civilian casualties. What a terrible war.

[Dr. Shane]

From what I understand, Hezbollah is a religious organization and does a lot of humanitarian work because their religion teaches them to do so. Unfortunately their religion also teaches young men that if they kill Christians and Jews they will be rewarded with virgins in heaven.

[Robert]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Shane said: Unfortunately their religion also teaches young men that if they kill Christians and Jews they will be rewarded with virgins in heaven.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Do you absolutely know this for a fact or are you just repeating what you hear?

[Robert]

<img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />