how did it happen? SDA - Witch - SDA

August 12, 2006

I was asked by a C/A member what led me, who was church orientated (going to sabbath services, going to church school) to enter the occult worship arena. What were the mental thoughts that led me to chuck away connection to sda-ism and go the path I chose? And what exactly got me turned to come back seeking a proper worship connection to the Son of God?

I decided it might be of interest to others, so I'm responding here.

Growing up Adventist was hell for me. My mom (bless her heart - she was trying so hard to do what she thought was *right*) was EXTREMELY legalistic....no skirt above the knee, no make-up, no jewelry, no listening to popular music (60's and 70's era), no wearing of any *fad* clothing like bell-bottoms or hip huggers, no movies ....in essence - NO FUN.

School was not great either. I still remember in 1st grade while everyone else was outside for a 45 minute recess I was required to kneel and beseech God to forgive me for being such an evil little girl for whispering to another student during classtime.

Academy is another whole story in itself. Suffice it to say, I did not win any Christian Leadership awards like my brother did.

It is true, all through the years of SDA education I took all the required Bible classes - and I attended Sabbath School and church (usually unwillingly). Unfortunately, the Bible came across to me as a book of fairy tales. They were interesting stories, but nothing I could relate to. I had no clue that Jesus REALLY DID love me. No clue at all. He was not a real person to me. God was some distant alien.

The last time I went to church before I said NO MORE, I was supposed to have been the pianist for Sabbath School. I got there on time, but was stopped in the foyer by someone who told me the song leader had wanted to start early and was irritated that I was not there... so she got someone else. I said *fine* and left. And never went back. I know it seems rather trite, but that was just the final straw in a line of *little* snobbery things that had come my way over the years from church people.

So how did I enter the world of witchcraft? It began shortly after I stopped using drugs in the mid 80's. I had not attended church for a good 5 years by that time. I began to have an interest in the Native American bit of my heritage, and read up on Native American spirituality - the Great Spirit and the use of nature for spiritual enhancement. That truly resonated with me. Probably if I had only stayed in that realm I may have gotten acquainted with God. But I didn't stay there.

I became certified as an *aromatherapist*... using essential oils for health and medicinal purposes. That is not bad, in and of itself, but much of the aromatherapy trade and writings have occultic intertwinings and relationships. I started to read about Wicca and soon became fully involved in that. It was nature-based, which I loved. It offered power and control, which I felt I needed. It offered safety and security, which I desparately needed.

Wicca is interesting because it does not deny there is a God. But it does deny the existence of the devil. No hell. Life after death was basically a non-issue with me. The goddess was the most important deity, and you could actually have a number of them. Mine were Ashtaroth and Isis. Interesting folks, those two.

Eventually I became interested in the darker occultic path....the Left Hand Path (or LHP). I will not relate here the things I did. It would make you sick. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What brought me back into the Christian world?

I had been very diligent in keeping away from Christians as best I could...kinda hard considering my parents were SDA and my brother an SDA minister. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> (They had no clue I was a witch, btw.) I had been a witch for about 12 years when I got a phone call out of the blue to come interview for a job. I didn't *want* a new job...but went to the interview anyhow. It kinda unnerved me because I had to drive past the Oregon SDA Conference offices...didn't like that at all.

The interview went okay...it was very strange though. The administrator told me he knew someone with the same last name as mine. It was my brother that he knew. I ended up being convinced to accept this new job not knowing that the administrator was also an SDA ordained pastor - so was the PR director. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I would have NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS accepted the job had I known.

Anyhow, it was a bizarre twist of fate (or God's hand) that brought me to where I work now. My boss began talking to me about Jesus and God, which I did NOT want to hear about at the beginning. He just kept being gently persistent.... took a couple years, but ...well.... here I am. Stumbing (often) to the cross.

August 12, 2006

Thank you Pam. On a number of levels - and it is a timely reminder for us all that those thoughtless little throw-away lines can have such momentous effects on others.

August 12, 2006

Amazing. Thank you for sharing your story, rudywoofs. It's not an easy road.

August 12, 2006

Some would say that nothing is accidental with God. I think it more than chance that brought your brother in touch with that employer of yours...

Thanks for sharing your story with us!

August 12, 2006

Thank you Pam.

Question: Where was your father throughout this time?

Those Indian rituals are indeed occult based.

What was the happiest time in your youth?

olger

August 12, 2006

Thank you, Pam, for your story. May you continue to grow in your new walk with your Best Friend!

God bless,

Beryl

August 12, 2006

Good to see you again, Beryl!

August 12, 2006

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olger said:

Question: Where was your father throughout this time?

My dad was always there - he was Christian - but not Adventist. And I was glad he was not....sometimes I think it was only because of that fact that I stayed sane in the face of all the restrictions and *chains* my mom (through the church) had unwittingly placed on me. He let me do *kid* things - like watch TV, play with my little *non-SDA* friends, listen to music (when my mom wasn't around). He was a public high school teacher (taught English and Wilderness Survival) and was an executive with the Boy Scouts. He became an Adventist when I was 21.

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What was the happiest time in your youth?

whenever we'd go camping - that was ALWAYS fun!!! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

August 12, 2006

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Gail said:

Some would say that nothing is accidental with God. I think it more than chance that brought your brother in touch with that employer of yours...

::nods:: I agree. Actually, it had been over 15 years since my boss (Tony) had been in contact with my brother. Tony had been the camp pastor at Big Lake Youth Camp when my brother was director. I later found out that Tony had also met my dad there too.

Tony had not planned to start his new business in the Portland area. It was only after a number of unforeseen situations occurred that he decided to move it to Portland instead of Seattle. He didn't have a clue who I was when he called me for an interview. It was the rep for an imaging manufacturer who recommended me to Tony to work with his new equipment since I was only 1 of maybe 3 in the State who knew how to use it. Kinda boggles my mind to look back and see how pieces of the puzzle kept falling into place for different events to occur. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/dizzy.gif" alt="" />

August 12, 2006

Wow, Pam! What an amazing story! Thank-you for sharing it <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

August 13, 2006

Would someone please start a camp-grounds only church/denomination/wilderness-spiritual survival group? I rarely attend church, but when I do, I squirm, get lost in daydreams, have no clue what people are talking about because I've been daydreaming, and wish I hadn't come.

Now at a camp-grounds-only church a person would be closer to nature, unconcerned about wearing fancy clothes, especially suits and ties and high heels, maybe have a nice lawn chair to sit in, and those who would never attend a stuffy, too-organized church might stop by to check it out.

Bible study and/or talking about various issues around a campfire...now that sounds really good to me. To me, Stuffy Church is just a waste of time.

Btw, Pam, are you into Sono, X-ray, MRI, or all of the above? I've seriously thought about entering the field, but, time is slipping by...

August 13, 2006

To: aliensanctuary above ^

I'm glad that you come to visit us! Many of our members do not step inside a physical church but come here for fellowship. We appreciate that very much

We have had members who since coming here have started reattending church as well

May you be blessed! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

August 13, 2006

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Aliensanctuary said:

Now at a camp-grounds-only church a person would be closer to nature, unconcerned about wearing fancy clothes, especially suits and ties and high heels,

<hr /></blockquote> I really hate that rug on my back and rope around my neck.!!! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/oops.gif" alt="" /> (suit-jacket and tie).

Pam, thankyou so much for sharing this testimony about how God has worked in your life and heart. It was well-worth the read, and I want to wish you all the best as you continue your walk with Jesus.

August 13, 2006

I, too, would love to have church outside! But I also cherish the church sanctuary setting...however, more as a place of meditation - most sermons tend to make me feel like a deer caught in the headlights.

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Btw, Pam, are you into Sono, X-ray, MRI, or all of the above? I've seriously thought about entering the field, but, time is slipping by...

CT & Mammography are my bailiwicks - but I could still crank out some emergency procedures in general x-ray if I had to.

August 13, 2006

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Would someone please start a camp-grounds only church/denomination/wilderness-spiritual survival group? I rarely attend church, but when I do, I squirm, get lost in daydreams, have no clue what people are talking about because I've been daydreaming, and wish I hadn't come.

Well if you can get to Sydney in 2 weekends, some friends of mine are going for their occasional but regular "Church in the Bush"....you would be very welcome and suits and ties are totally banned ! (They are members at my home church but as my husband has the voluntary pastorate of another small church, we do not get there as often as I would wish).

August 13, 2006

So you're one of those people who operate the Evil Boob-Smashing Machines. My wife just came back from her yearly mmgm with 2-dimensional boobs. I'm having trouble finding 2-dimensional bras to fit.

Better 2-D boobs than no boobs, though, is what I say.

August 13, 2006

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"Church in the Bush"....

That sounds interesting.

August 13, 2006

Back to the Witchcraft...

So, what connection, if any, is there between the little candlelight ceremonies and rituals of witchcraft and Satan's actual kingdom. Do his evil messengers practice these rituals to communicate with him or each other?

Are these ceremonies just hand-me-down let's-pretend-we're-trying-to-contact-evil-spirits games? What is there about these rituals that supposedly provide a connection with evil spirits?

I'm thinking that Satan and his Evil Crew are not physically present among us, but are able to access our minds somehow from wherever they are.

August 14, 2006

Ehrhmmm. I do not intend to get specific about *ceremonies and rituals of witchcraft*...

Let me say this: There are countless varieties of witchcraft and occult practices. Some do not believe in the existence of the devil, i.e. most wiccans. OTOH, some DO believe in the existence of the devil, i.e. CoS (Church of Satan) believers. Pagans believe in deities in form of the goddess (Diana, Ashtaroth, Hekate, Brighid, etc.) and the gods (Cernunnos, Baal, Gog, etc).

There are MANY, MANY *fluffy bunny* wannabe witches, especially amongst adolescents, teens, and young adults. However, no respectable witch will try to lure the young into their midst. Not all witches are respectable, however.

Ceremonies and rituals are very real. Magick connects the practitioner with the goddess/god. However, other entities may also appear and can ... well... basically, bite you in the butt, for lack of a better way to say it. Magick is not something to play with.

Never ever for an instant think that Satan and his minions are not among you. He would like you to think that. He will not come at you with a sign declaring who he is...he is subtle and sweet-talking. He has no scruples and will do ANYTHING to convince you otherwise.

Witchcraft is extremely appealing to disenchanted Christians. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But God is stronger than Satan can ever hope to be. I throw my lot in with Christ.

August 14, 2006

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Aliensanctuary said:

Back to the Witchcraft...

So, what connection, if any, is there between the little candlelight ceremonies and rituals of witchcraft and Satan's actual kingdom. Do his evil messengers practice these rituals to communicate with him or each other?

Are these ceremonies just hand-me-down let's-pretend-we're-trying-to-contact-evil-spirits games? What is there about these rituals that supposedly provide a connection with evil spirits?

I'm thinking that Satan and his Evil Crew are not physically present among us, but are able to access our minds somehow from wherever they are.

I am not saying you do this alien sanctuary; your post just reminded me of the following. Some like to indulge their curiosity re witch craft, communicationg with spirits etc.; and this is always dangerous. I know from personal experience is all I will say...But yes, there are many ways to communicate with them.

Often, we are trained to think of this communication as some sort of witch craft ceremony, or spells, or whatever; but maybe we could consider the following counsel, in deciding when communication with evil spirits is most likely to take place. This may surprise some of you; but it is worth thinking about:

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5T.224.003

My brethren, God is grieved with your envying and jealousies, your bitterness and dissension. In all these things you are yielding obedience to Satan and not to Christ. When we see men firm in principle, fearless in duty, zealous in the cause of God, yet humble and lowly, gentle and tender, patient toward all, ready to forgive, manifesting love for souls for whom Christ died, we do not need to inquire: Are they Christians? They give unmistakable evidence that they have been with Jesus and learned of Him. When men reveal the opposite traits, when they are proud, vain, frivolous, worldly-minded, avaricious, unkind, censorious, we need not be told with whom they are associating, who is their most intimate friend. They may not believe in witchcraft; but, notwithstanding this, they are holding communion with an evil spirit.

August 21, 2006

bump and fix <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

August 21, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

Let me say this: There are countless varieties of witchcraft and occult practices. Some do not believe in the existence of the devil, i.e. most wiccans. OTOH, some DO believe in the existence of the devil, i.e. CoS (Church of Satan) believers. Pagans believe in deities in form of the goddess (Diana, Ashtaroth, Hekate, Brighid, etc.) and the gods (Cernunnos, Baal, Gog, etc).

Just to clarify further (adding to what Pam has said), there are many varieties of 'pagan' as well. Not all follow the Celtic traditions. There are pagans that follow other pantheons and traditions, for example the Hellenic (Greek) or Khemite (Egyptian). Many modern Wiccans are either Alexandrian or Gardnerian (referring to two major 20th century revivalists of indigenous European folk religion) and among those there are purely Dianic or female covens as well as covens recognizing both "genders" of the divine. Very few Wiccans actually commingle names for the god and goddess within their tradition with names that are more Solomonic or grimoiric in nature -- I have almost never heard a Wiccan refer to Cernunnos as "Baal", for example. That would be simply unheard of -- though calling him "Lucifer" is not, provided one understands the name to be referential to the "sun god" and not to any wicked imp of Christian extraction. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As for "belief in the devil" it is important to note that even among traditions openly proclaiming allegiance to Satan or Lucifer, this does not in any sense equate to "belief in the devil" as a Christian might think. None of these groups believe in "the Christian devil" whatsoever. Satanists and Luciferians worship a Satan or Lucifer whose character is far from the slimy, self-serving imp of perversity given the same name in the Christian tradition. Failure to understand this can only lead to a complete collapse of communication with such folks.

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There are MANY, MANY *fluffy bunny* wannabe witches, especially amongst adolescents, teens, and young adults. However, no respectable witch will try to lure the young into their midst.

Pam you really ought to have qualified that last statement with the words, "in my opinion." The fact of the matter is that many "respectable" witches and occultists consider it their duty to instruct the young in the old ways the same way a Christian parent would consider it his duty to rear his sons and daughters in the faith of the church. I believe what you probably meant was that a witch or pagan should not seek to lure OTHER people's children away from what their parents are teaching them -- but that to me would just be common social propriety, to not intrude upon the family relationships with others so as to set up rivalry or opposition between a kid and his parents by encouraging a youngster to go against his parents' teaching and way. The question that remains here, of course, is whether Christians have such scruples when it comes to attempting to "lure" a teen pagan from the way of his family's hearth. My observation has told me no such scruples are reciprocated where a convert to the Cross might be made. That in itself might give us pause to ponder how our actions and outreachings are perceived by those who do not share the faith, eh?

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Ceremonies and rituals are very real. Magick connects the practitioner with the goddess/god. However, other entities may also appear and can ... well... basically, bite you in the butt, for lack of a better way to say it. Magick is not something to play with.

I will confess readily to not knowing your "whole story" in its detailed entirety, beyond what you have chosen to share here, but you have never mentioned personally having been "burned" by magick before yourself, so I'm curious where this sentiment comes from. Is this your experience personally or is this an accretion of your recent acceptance of Christian faith, this idea that you must warn people away from the use of magick?

Magick is best regarded objectively as similar to a power tool. When used by a properly trained, skilled practitioner with the strength to wield it, it can accomplish amazing and constructive things. When used by one with malicious intent it can be put to all sorts of harmful employment, and when one with neither strength nor training to do so -- particularly one filled with folly -- attempts to pick it up, he endangers himself and those around him by his recklessness.

An objective view is always superior to the induction of fear, I have found.

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Never ever for an instant think that Satan and his minions are not among you. He would like you to think that.

I believe the distinction Aliensanctuary sought to make was one of locus and proximity, that is, whether unseen entities such as Satan inhabit the same physical plane that we do. I personally think they do not, but as AS said, have access to the mind in a variety of ways regardless of physical proximity. But this is an academic question with no objective standard for conclusive determination, so no harm in leaving it aside for now.

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He will not come at you with a sign declaring who he is...he is subtle and sweet-talking. He has no scruples and will do ANYTHING to convince you otherwise.

I could not disagree more. Satan declared himself to me openly and rather blatantly at that, and demonstrated himself to have numerous scruples indeed. They may not be the same as the scruples we might think someone ought to have, or such ones as make sense to most godly "normal" folk, but even as there is honor among thieves so there are scruples among the denizens of the darker side. Some of which, I hasten to add, proved much more reliable to me personally than those presumably held by folks claiming to be redeemed representatives of an heavenly kingdom.

But that was just my experience. I do tend to be ruthlessly objective about such things regardless of what nonsense it might cause others to talk or conclude of me, if for no better reason than that I can, and that despite lacking the power to do so I have never lost the desire to cause blind eyes to see.

Pax Templi.

Nicodema

August 21, 2006

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you really ought to have qualified that last statement with the words, "in my opinion."

okay. In my opinion. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No, I was not referring to pagans who will obviously train up their children within their belief system. I was referring to witches who systematically and ruthlessly and intentionally entice children into the Craft. They, in my opinion, are not respectable, and none of the witches/occultists/neoshamans whom I know would agree that such enticement is a respectable action.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Magick is best regarded objectively as similar to a power tool. When used by a properly trained, skilled practitioner with the strength to wield it, it can accomplish amazing and constructive things. When used by one with malicious intent it can be put to all sorts of harmful employment, and when one with neither strength nor training to do so -- particularly one filled with folly -- attempts to pick it up, he endangers himself and those around him by his recklessness.

That sounds exactly like something I would have said 18 months ago. What it doesn't address is who is the source of the particular power.

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you have never mentioned personally having been "burned" by magick before

Yes, I was burned. When my decision did not match the will of the one I was summoning, things got nasty. That is all I will say on that.

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Satan declared himself to me openly and rather blatantly at that, and demonstrated himself to have numerous scruples indeed. They may not be the same as the scruples we might think someone ought to have, or such ones as make sense to most godly "normal" folk, but even as there is honor among thieves so there are scruples among the denizens of the darker side. Some of which, I hasten to add, proved much more reliable to me personally than those presumably held by folks claiming to be redeemed representatives of an heavenly kingdom.

I have also had encounters with Satan up close and personal. He was subtle and sweet talking and logical and convincing. Perhaps I am wrong, but I have never heard of him approaching someone openly and blatantly declaring his intents unless they were already seeking him. []http://img.inkfrog.com/pix/Rudywoofs/icon_confused.gif[/]

But I have been wrong about a lot of things. Perhaps I am wrong about Satan.

August 21, 2006

Just as an aside, I honestly do not wish to turn this thread into a debate on the merits of Satan or about the things I did as a witch.

I started the thread to relate how I went into witchcraft from being brought up in the Adventist faith, and how I ended back in the Adventist faith.

August 22, 2006

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rudywoofs said:

I was not referring to pagans who will obviously train up their children within their belief system. I was referring to witches who systematically and ruthlessly and intentionally entice children into the Craft. They, in my opinion, are not respectable, and none of the witches/occultists/neoshamans whom I know would agree that such enticement is a respectable action.

And what of Christians who do likewise? Who systematically and ruthlessly and intentionally seek to lure other people's children away from their upbringing and into the Christian faith? Would you characterise that behavior as disreputable as well?

You see it is all well and good coming at things from a predetermined perspective where you have already decided the occult/magick/paganism = "bad" and Christian = "good" to state what you have stated -- but objectively speaking, if it is wrong for one class of people to do what you have stated then it is equally wrong for any class of people regardless of your or my opinion on their choice of religion. (Am I making sense here?)

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That sounds exactly like something I would have said 18 months ago.

Perhaps 18 months ago you were more objective than you are now. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

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Yes, I was burned. When my decision did not match the will of the one I was summoning, things got nasty. That is all I will say on that.

Funny, I never had that experience. I cannot say magick never backfired on me due to my own follies, but I can say that I do not recall any time where something I'd summoned became specifically hostile toward me personally over a conflict of will or perspective. Then again, I tended to be of one mind with the powers upon which I called. And again, the nature of my relationship with the One I termed my "Master" at that time was such that we played out all such things with high drama between ourselves and enjoyed these little "lovers' spats" immensely. There was never any question about where the line was drawn -- He and I were both keenly aware of its presence, position, and immutability in that regard. I do recall being rather disappointed, actually, that so much was indeed left to me to devise and that I could not enjoy the deeper level of utter enslavement I ardently craved.

But I suppose everyone's experience is different, because in the end, we are all different people with different perspectives and perceptions.

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I have also had encounters with Satan up close and personal. He was subtle and sweet talking and logical and convincing.

Well, it really doesn't matter what face he puts on his words, whether he comes "in a form pleasing, and without any foul odor" as the old books put it, or dons hooves, horns, and a scent of sulphur, so to speak. What I'm talking about is the presence or absence of accurate self-disclosure in the exchange and what you earlier termed "scruples".

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Perhaps I am wrong, but I have never heard of him approaching someone openly and blatantly declaring his intents unless they were already seeking him.

Initially at the time, I was not. In fact, I was horrified, terrified, and mortified at the experience of my first open (and quite UNsolicited) encounter. But he made his intent quite known and quite open at the outset. He was there to take control of my desire, to have me to worship him, to engage in intimate relations in all senses of the word, to be known to me in a way in which none other had ever known him, and that I was to serve him by becoming a sorceress. I hasten to add once again I knew nothing of the occult in any sense at this time. I was a dedicated Christian with no thought or desire to be anything BUT 100% sold out for Christ.

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But I have been wrong about a lot of things. Perhaps I am wrong about Satan.

I don't expect you or anyone else to be able to account for my experience when I myself cannot fully account for it (that is, parse it in some "theologically correct" mode and have it make sense). It is indeed "Jobian" in that respect, and any such efforts, doomed to failure as the false comforts offered by Job's friends in the day of his calamity.

It is past me now, but it still remains a mystery, and one I doubt will be solved this side of Kingdom Come.

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how did it happen? SDA - Witch - SDA

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