wrapped in dried mud

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

...because the one true God places free will (or freedom of choice) in the hands of all. Something of which those who worship false gods are, for the most part, unwilling to give to others who disagree with themselves, as witnessed by those who take the lives of others without giving choice.

According to SDA eschatology, this one true God Himself, in fact, also takes away the lives of "others who disagree" and gives them no choice in the matter whatsoever about this. However, it seems we have invented a special word for this, so that we don't have to equate it with the behavior of "false gods" and their "followers": we call it "consequences." Nevertheless, when speaking of a Being whom we may readily deduce possesses the power to actually dictate how Reality itself will work, and of what Cause and Effect shall consist, the distinction can become pretty slim, and very fuzzy.

Are there any more convincing apologies (in the old sense of the word, as in statements put forth by apologists) for making a distinction here than the standard fare? If so, I would be most interested to hear them. I would like to believe God is not like those He condemns; but sometimes admittedly I have great difficulty doing so. Thank you kindly for your patience with me.

I see you as a seeker, Nico, and as such God places great responsibility upon me to handle you (for want of better words) with the same love Jesus exercises over me, insofar as He gives me that gift.

Many see God the Father as having absolute freedom of choice in working out the plan of salvation, therefore placing Himself above natural consequences that occur from aberrations of His Law. However I believe this to be an erroneous conclusion, revealed particularly by the death of His Son Jesus, Who was mutually given up to death in place of the natural consequences of sinful conduct by human beings, that they might receive life who themselves were bound to receive death, not by arbitrary decision but by leaving the only path that gives life, that which all the universe must follow to maintain life, including the Father and Son.

"..if we are faithless, He abideth faithful; for He cannot deny himself." 2 Timothy 2:13 ASV

"...an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

in hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal; " Titus 1:1,2 ASV

When Jesus died, this was not the only option open to God. However it was the only choice where God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit, loved us so much, He was willing to suffer the pangs of death, actually trading places and risking eternal separation from each other in order that we who were already separated from the family of God, might be reunited by His working out a plan that was just and the justification of many who would willingly submit to His sovereignty.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me."

John 14:6 ASV

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:2 KJV

"...being confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ:" Philippians 1:6 ASV

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." Phil 2:13 KJV

"And Jesus said to him, " 'If You can?' All things are possible to him who believes." Mark 9:23 NASB

"...for I am not ashamed of the good news of the Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to every one who is believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek." Romans 1:16 YLT

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

just FWIW, it is okay with rudywoofs that Nico asks probing questions in any of rudywoofs' threads..

(rudywoofs is having huge difficulties in her mind with christianity and christians at this time...so will not be participating in threads for now)

::back to whatever topic this thread is discussing::

[Paula]

Nico,

You stated that my response was not an answer, but that it simply restated your question. I find it quite amusing how some people can turn things around when in order to hide their lack of comprehension. My reply to you was not standard SDA eschatology. It was a fact. God is God. God can do anything he wishes to and STILL be 100% fair and good and loving. Just because you do not see it does not mean it is not so. Thats like the old question... if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? Well, yes it does. The fact that no one can hear it in no way alters the physical laws of sound. Likewise, just because Nicodema cannot understand something, does not automatically make it not so. God is God. He can do as He pleases, and in doing so, He is ALWAYS right, ALWAYS love and ALWAYS Good.

And just a suggestion. Maybe you should listen to David Koot a little more... he knows what he is saying. I know you have mentioned several times on this board how intelligent you are, and how exceptional your grasp of the English language is. But remember, arrogant people are seldomly teachable. I am not saying you are arrogant, but asking David to not participate simply because he gave an answer that was not to your liking was not very humble of you now was it? Especially considering that the one having a hard time grasping the concept, and thus needing his reply here, is you.

[D. Allan]

Nicodema is asking a serious question. And she is serious about it, I think. And just as some may not understand that, how much greater that we have a misconception about God. Maybe it is impossible for us to "understand" HIM. Maybe a god that we could completely understand would not be GOD to us. And I know that is not an answer, either;)

[cricket]

Upon closer observation, it is easily will noted that it is not an issue of "having a hard time grasping the concept." At least not on the part of the party to which the words above refer.

The issue is thus: opinion.

Many members of this board insist that their opinions are fact. When, indeed, not a single person here has evidence beyond his/her own experience to prove their opinion to be factual.

As in the tree-falling-alone-in-the-forest analogy, there is one objective historical account of Truth. The interpretation thereof, is entirely subjective to the one giving the account.

These statements, "God is God. He can do as He pleases, and in doing so, He is ALWAYS right, ALWAYS love and ALWAYS Good," are matters of personal interpretation of a particular account.

Do not discredit others' opinions by insisting that one's own is fact.

[Paula]

These statements, "God is God. He can do as He pleases, and in doing so, He is ALWAYS right, ALWAYS love and ALWAYS Good," are matters of personal interpretation of a particular account.

Do not discredit others' opinions by insisting that one's own is fact.

So it is your position that this is not true? God cannot do as He pleases and still be God???? What I am saying is based on the Bible. If you read through the Bible this is what you will see. That God is Sovereign. That God is Love. He is both these things at the same time. Therefore, based on fact (if the Bible is indeed to be taken as fact), God CAN do whatever he wants (Sovereingty) and still be Love (since He IS love).

To say that this is not so, is to deny the facts as they are found in the Bible. Now, if one does not believe the bible to be a factual book, than... there is no premise for a discussion.

[David Koot]

Many members of this board insist that their opinions are fact. When, indeed, not a single person here has evidence beyond his/her own experience to prove their opinion to be factual.

[LifeHiscost]

Do not discredit others' opinions by insisting that one's own is fact.

It is true that none must believe the Word of God. One can believe that none of the Word He gave to those He created, is true. However one cannot escape the results of what one is unwilling to accept as truth, while it remains true.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18 KJV

"And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved." Acts 4:12 ASV

"for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory." Eph 2:8,9 ASV

And that's a fact!!

[LifeHiscost]

Maybe it is impossible for us to "understand" HIM.

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God" John 7:17 KJV

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?"

John 14:9 ASV

[D. Allan]

LifeHisCost, the first verse applies to teachings. Try them and see. The experimental method!

The 2nd verse sounds good. But do we understand Him? If He is the same as wrathful Jehovah - I don't understand that. Personally, I suspect that the wrathful Jehovah is an ancient conception of God that we have outgrown. Otherwise, I just don't understand. I'm willing to be wrong. Not by intention, however!

[Aliensanctuary]

Here in my hands I have a bottle of Ego-B-Gone. It's guaranteed to deflate infectious ego-itis, that is, inflammation of the ego, a common, highly contagious disease.

If you call in the next 15 minutes, you will also receive a free can of Mud Wrap. Invite all of your friends and enemies, leave all of your hangups and other problems behind, and have a church-in-the-mud party. When the parties over, peel off the superficial mud and find a happier, younger looking you.

Ask your doctor if Ego-B-Gone and Mud Wrap are right for you.

[LifeHiscost]

LifeHisCost, the first verse applies to teachings. Try them and see. The experimental method!

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Here in my hands I have a bottle of Ego-B-Gone. It's guaranteed to deflate infectious ego-itis, that is, inflammation of the ego, a common, highly contagious disease.

If you call in the next 15 minutes, you will also receive a free can of Mud Wrap. Invite all of your friends and enemies, leave all of your hangups and other problems behind, and have a church-in-the-mud party. When the parties over, peel off the superficial mud and find a happier, younger looking you.

Ask your doctor if Ego-B-Gone and Mud Wrap are right for you.

Sounds great! Send me a case of Ego-B-Gone. And a truckload of Mud Wrap.

[Aliensanctuary]

Warning!

Side-effects of extended use of Ego-B-Gone may include loss of Self, loss of ambition, mouse-in-the-corner syndrome, itching, rashes, acne, hair loss, etc.

Mud Wrap, when used as an anti-lethargic church remedy, must be used in moderation. Extended use may result in loss of skin, loss of enemies, hugging everything in sight, addiction to mud wrestling, plugged shower drains, overcrowded churches, etc.

[Naomi]

Is it FDA Approved?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Pam, I hope things are well with you.

Quote:

What is it that is missing in the church today?

Here is the honest truth for me.

Pam, I am the problem with the church. I put other things before God, I choose to be selfish and I'm interested in myself more than God. I do what I can for the church but really I give God what's left over of my time. I don't have a love for souls like I should because I am too comfortable and I would rather they found God themselves. I know what to say when asked doctrinal questions and can prove what we believe from the Bible, but my heart is cold because I am afraid to let God in to completely guide me.

There's no one to blame for this but me. I am what I am because of the choices that I have made. Unfortunately these choices affect my brothers and sisters and my cold dead influence rubs off on others.

I don't say these things in false humility looking for anything other than prayer. Don't misunderstand, I'm not leaving God nor am I in despair, I am just stating the facts that I can objectively see. I know that change is occurring but, I don't want it to inconvenience me. All said, I am not happy with this and must make some changes.

I can't say why others are the way they are, but I suspect it's not much different than what I have confessed. If everyone were like me the church would be dead. What I hopeless state I am in! Wait, I am looking at me, I need to look at Christ and then His love for me will melt my hard heart, give me a love for others and make me free from condemnation.

What a wonderful Savior we have!

Norman

[D. Allan]

Quote:

I can't say why others are the way they are, but I suspect it's not much different than what I have confessed. If everyone were like me the church would be dead. What I hopeless state I am in! Wait, I am looking at me, I need to look at Christ and then His love for me will melt my hard heart, give me a love for others and make me free from condemnation.

I think you are too hard on your self, Norman. After all, it is the leaders, pastors, etc. job to equip us as they are always saying, they try to put a quilt trip on us then they get in their cars and drive home. It doesn't work well to motivate a worker by quilt. I wonder why they don't train us as Jesus did his discples. By example? He preached, healed, and his disciples tagged along, watching and helping until they sort of got used to it.

I attended a church-planting conference at Andrews Univ. 5 or 6 years ago with 6 or 7 members of our district. It was inspiring, for the most part. Many wonderful seminars. Great praise music and sermons. I thought we might try it when we got back home, maybe we could start an informal house-church. But the last meeting of the planting-conference took all the wind out of my sails. The man in charge of evangelism for the NAD gave the final sermon, Saturday night. Quoting E.G. White he said that any church member who does not go out and start a new church is "going straight to hell." How can we get new members if we tell them that they have to plant a church or else they are going "straight to hell." I wonder if anyone else remembers that sermon.

Quote:

and make me free from condemnation.

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. That is what the apostle Paul said. Many of us don't want to bring people into a church that makes its members feel condemned.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi D.

My reply to Pam was to let her know why the church is the way that it is. I was trying to explain that we are individually responsible for the whole. It's not anyone elses fault. I can never blame anyone for my lack of spirituality. I am the way that I am because I choose to be that way. if we all took care of our relationship with God and let Christ rule in our hearts, the church would be a different entity. Better to be hard on oneself and be real than to be soft and be deceived.

Christ has made every provision for us to be what He calls us to be.

Quote:

After all, it is the leaders, pastors, etc. job to equip us as they are always saying, they try to put a quilt trip on us then they get in their cars and drive home.

There may be some that do this, but you can, as you've noted, spot them and do something about it. It's not up to them, it's up to us to ask for the Holy Spirit daily to learn and grow together as a church. I just don't think we should be waiting for pastors to teach us how to share our testimonies and doing good things for those in need and teaching when we can. These things are lacking in our church and these are the things that will change the spiritual makeup of our church.

Quote:

Quoting E.G. White he said that any church member who does not go out and start a new church is "going straight to hell."

First we don't believe in hell, so I don't know what you heard. Hell and death are going to be cast into the lake of fire. I've done a search for that statement and have not been able to find it.

Quote:

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

Who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

Paul reveals this in the next few verses. It is virtually impossible to live your life, controlled by sin, thinking your in Christ, without condemnation or guilt. But when we are in Christ and reveal this by following (walking) after the Spirit we will not have any condemnation. Both by being in Christ (grace)and by our response (created in Christ Jesus unto good works,)

Norman