Hitler and Stalin were possessed by the Devil

September 12, 2006

You have done a great job of listing the difficulties - can and would a demon do something while being adequately observed? Great question. It begs to be tested!

If the demon won't, then we have an immediate non-supernatural exorcism technique. To hell with the book and the bells - lets get a video camera!

Hey, how smart are these demons - can they tell whether a digital camera is turned on? Maybe a $20 digital camera is all it takes.. or a 0.20c imitation!

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Not to mention the entire realm of subjectivity in which such things are experienced to begin with. I can't explain why a light bulb "floated" to the floor (taking a full 40 +/- seconds to do so) instead of falling as its weight would dictate, but does that make the experience supernatural? How do I know I did not merely layer over top some sort of time-based hallucination where things seemed to move slowly? (That's a real experience I had once, by the way.)

Yes, humans a terrible witnesses to events - they see what they want to see, remember it incorrectly, can be drugged, can be tired, can be asleep, ...

/bevin

September 12, 2006

You should move to Midian ... LOL ... it's where the monsters are.

Then you could learn them all by name. This one is Peloquin...

[]http://www.londonexpo.com/~chillerfest/images/nightbreed.gif[/]

September 12, 2006

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bevin said:

Yes, humans a terrible witnesses to events - they see what they want to see, remember it incorrectly, can be drugged, can be tired, can be asleep, ...

/bevin

Ask any law enforcement officer ...... Right On!

Demons and their leader are great imitators, not creators. Certainly they possess knowledge and power to do whatever they deem necessary to deceive, even the very elect. Satin is the great counterfeiter, he can counterfeit virtually anything! Electronics should be a cake-walk.

AHhhhhhhhh, there is one thing Satin cannot do ...

September 12, 2006

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bevin said:

... - can and would a demon do something while being adequately observed? ... If the demon won't, then we have an immediate non-supernatural exorcism technique. To hell with the book and the bells - lets get a video camera!

Bevin, there's nothing overtly supernatural about ordinary garden variety torment and ownership of an individual from the inside. Our theoretical demon(s) could continue to maintain their hostage even in the absence of supernatural parlor tricks. You'd likely catch something on film but it would not necessarily be levitation and telekinesis. It might just look like watching someone have an "episode" so to speak. Bringing us back to the original question I raised about delineating between demonic possession and mental illness.

It's no great secret that through history societies that did not have a medical model developed to explain various types of bizarre or even simply non-normative behavior and thought patterns feared what they failed to understand and chalked these things up to the inhabitation of evil spirits (and this went on even in non-judaeo-xtian societies where their notion of "evil spirit" would have been quite different from the Bible-believer's notion today). Every ancient culture has magickal rites for "driving out evil spirits" from a person's body. It was an universal belief, but one that flourished in the absence of a sound, working medical model.

I have a theory of my own, that in addition to developing this belief in possession by evil spirits as an answer to mental illnesses and emotional imbalances of various types, the belief was also encouraged and exacerbated by the convenience of being able to "charge" (accuse) another person of having this condition if one disagreed with their point of view, deemed them heretical, or simply wished to pull a petty power-play in preservation of a corrupt status quo, that is, to keep said corruption from being exposed by those with the intelligence and insight to penetrate beneath the surface and question things. What is interesting is that we see this type of dynamic repeated in Protestant folklore (particularly the SDA variety) of the fall of Lucifer and the reasons for his parting of ways with God. All of which makes it VERY convenient indeed for the corrupt religious zealot to paint pictures and parallels condemning anyone who dares question all the oppressive, corrupt, tainted lines of human activity in both church and state and thereby upset the status quo that keeps the zealot feeling "in charge" and maintains his ability to hoodwink the vulnerable, gullible, and fearful who have simple hearts, are concerned with pleasing God, and therefore susceptible to all manner of suggestions provided they sound pious and self-effacing.

September 12, 2006

I love satin against my skin in my bed.

ZZZZZZZZZZ wake me when its over!

Satin feels goooooooood.

September 12, 2006

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Nicodema said:

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John317 said:

I have no doubt, also, that Hitler and Stalin were at the very least controlled by Satan and it is quite possible they were possessed, although no one can be certain. Certainly Satan and his demons possess people in modern times and in so-called scientific societies.

Personally, I'd like to see some sort of definitive study -- and by that I mean medically and scientifically sound and verified -- delineating the difference between demon possession and mental illness.

I'm not saying possession doesn't exist. I'm just saying I'd like to see those lines a bit more firmly and clearly drawn. I've seen documentaries on television showing persons who believed themselves possessed, had several exorcisms, etc. and from what they showed of these people, they looked like they were simply disordered and "acting out" their internal turmoil and conflicts. Most of them didn't even present as seriously mentally ill -- just sad, angry, confused, and highly suggestible.

I myself, for many years, either used to be possessed or else believed I was and acted accordingly. To this day I'm not entirely certain which it was, and I have no conclusive proof either way. While I am no longer as obsessed with getting to the bottom of that question as I was for about half my life, it would still be nice if I could one day know the answer for certain.

While I personally have no experience in what is called exorcism, I have read a number of books on it and have been in close association with my father who has been "involved" in it for over 25 years and authored 5 books on the subject. I worked at a large medical institution when medical staff, including a well-known doctor, observed a young, "possessed" woman get thrown down a flight of stairs and against the walls. This doctor was afraid to report what he saw for fear that his medical license would be revoked or at the very least that his professional reputation would be damaged.

Several problems with trying to draw the lines "firmly and clearly" between demon possession and mental illness are (1) many of the symptoms for both possession and mental illness are either the same or very similar; (2) Satan and his demons are very good at suppressing or camouflaging symptoms and "problems" when it is to their advantage to do so. It is always to his advantage for people either to be unaware of their problem or for others not to believe in such problems. The longer he can keep the problem from being diagnosed properly, the greater advantage Satan has over his victims; (3) It is always a dangerous, foolish thing for people to think they can diagnose "demon-possession" in others on the basis of a few symptoms or after a short experience with someone. There are many symptoms of possession, but in the final analysis, it is the victim of possession himself that must decide the issue. Often the possessed person comes to the realization that he is under the control of Satan or that he is not in control of his life. But it is also true that a person can be wrong about being possessed or not possessed. In a word, it is a very complex phenomenon which does not exactly render itself easily to documentary studies.

September 12, 2006

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Naomi said:

AHhhhhhhhh, there is one thing Satin cannot do ...

And what is that, Naomi? Be washed in a conventional washing machine? I think it is possible provided one does not use hot water. I used to wash my black satin sheets in cold on gentle and put them in the dryer on "air fluff" or low with no problem at all. It's silk that must be dry cleaned only. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Of course I think you might have meant Satan, in which case I'd have to ask, what is it? What is the ONE THING that Satan cannot do?

September 12, 2006

on a more serious note....

Nico!

Is that the out of work actor on the show 'Charmed'?

I dont watch 'charmed' but where I work the big TV in the Truckers Lounge is always on TNT or somethin and 'Charmed is on all day it seems. Ugh!

those poor guys are stuck watching this drivel every day.

I dont have cable so I dont know whats on.

The management dont car as long as the truckers dont complain -there it stays.

Bright and breezy and dark and stupid show with three pretty sisters who are witches.

September 12, 2006

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Nicodema said:

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Naomi said:

AHhhhhhhhh, there is one thing Satin cannot do ...

LOL ... got me there, Satan.

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Of course I think you might have meant Satan, in which case I'd have to ask, what is it? What is the ONE THING that Satan cannot do?

Think about it <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

September 12, 2006

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John317 said:

I worked at a large medical institution when medical staff, including a well-known doctor, observed a young, "possessed" woman get thrown down a flight of stairs and against the walls.

And they are 100% certain beyond all shadow of doubt that she did not trip on something or even stumble over her own feet just a split second before what they saw?

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John317 said:

Several problems with trying to draw the lines "firmly and clearly" between demon possession and mental illness are (1) many of the symptoms for both possession and mental illness are either the same or very similar;

Which itself is a good argument against the existence of demon possession as anything other than an old-world name for mental illness ... but go on ...

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John317 said:

(2) Satan and his demons are very good at suppressing or camouflaging symptoms and "problems" when it is to their advantage to do so. It is always to his advantage for people either to be unaware of their problem or for others not to believe in such problems. The longer he can keep the problem from being diagnosed properly, the greater advantage Satan has over his victims;

Precisely the point I raised above, yes ...

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John317 said:

(3) It is always a dangerous, foolish thing for people to think they can diagnose "demon-possession" in others on the basis of a few symptoms or after a short experience with someone.

Hear, hear!! I'll drink to that and raise you one up: not only is it a dangerous, FOOLISH thing for someone to think they can diagnose demon possession in others but it is just as dangerous and foolish for people to go around thinking they can assess the heart/mind/spirit of another person in ANY sense based on either superfluous things like their manner of dress, adornment, and speech or even weightier things like their point of view, ideas and opinions. It is consummate arrogance for anyone to believe he has the mind of God so completely grasped that he stands in a position to assess the state of another's soul or heart. God alone knows, and He doesn't GOSSIP.

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John317 said:

There are many symptoms of possession, but in the final analysis, it is the victim of possession himself that must decide the issue. Often the possessed person comes to the realization that he is under the control of Satan or that he is not in control of his life.

But a person may "know" this from the outset of his situation, "know" it completely and thoroughly, even express it in precisely those terms: "Satan has taken me over" ... "I have no will of my own" ... "My thoughts are his and his feelings are mine ..." etc. and still it could all be the result of what psychiatrists refer to as "delusion of alien control" combined with delusions of "thought insertion". It could even be a spiritual variant of delusional parasitosis, or a highly sublimated form of erotomania in the case of incubus/succubus type experiences.

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John317 said:

But it is also true that a person can be wrong about being possessed or not possessed. In a word, it is a very complex phenomenon which does not exactly render itself easily to documentary studies.

Precisely -- and bear in mind we've not yet proven conclusively that such a thing even exists as something separate from an old-world label for a variety of mental illnesses, emotional imbalances, and convenient wholesale discrediting/invalidation/villianization of one's opponents in the marketplace of ideas. (The spiritual equivalent of calling someone a "terrorist" nowadays: it shuts off thought, closes the mind, and turns a person's avoidance/repulsion meter up full tilt.)

September 12, 2006

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Gay4JESUS said:

Is that the out of work actor on the show 'Charmed'?

I have no idea. I don't watch television, so I haven't watched the Beverly Hills 90210 Witch Club. <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Peloquin is a character from Clive Barker's Night Breed.

September 12, 2006

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Naomi said:

LOL ... got me there, Satan.

Are you calling me Satan, Naomi???

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Naomi said:

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Nicodema said: Of course I think you might have meant Satan, in which case I'd have to ask, what is it? What is the ONE THING that Satan cannot do?

Think about it <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Got me. *shrug* ... I have no idea. So, you going to tell me what it is or are we going to play guessing games all day? <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/AAdoh.gif" alt="" />

September 12, 2006

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Nicodema said:

You should move to Midian ... LOL ... it's where the monsters are.

Then you could learn them all by name. This one is Peloquin...

[]http://www.londonexpo.com/~chillerfest/images/nightbreed.gif[/]

Peloquin's foam prosthetic looks too rubbery.

September 12, 2006

Yeah well the movie was made some time ago. It looks pretty realistic in the movie though -- but still, it's monster makeup, whaddya want?

September 12, 2006

* tacking on

So what would be the difference between possession and heavy influence? Does being possessed always mean crawling on the ceiling, your head doing a 360 or running from holy objects? Or has the general populace taken what is created for film as gospel?

Since I only know of one group (are there others?)that practices exorcism I went looking for data. I found this on an RC facts site.(Im in no way stating that I see this as fact myself) Also how much of the past ages ignorance, superstition and illiteracy been carried over to this century without rectification?

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SIGNS OF POSSESSION (from the Roman Ritual of Exorcism)

The following are symptoms of possession as represented in the Roman Ritual of Exorcism. In most cases, a victim will have one or more of the traits listed.

Victim speaks or understands unknown languages without ever studying the language being spoken or heard

Victim clearly knows things that are distant or hidden

Victim can predict future events (sometimes through dreams)

Victim has an intense hatred for holy things

Victim shows a physical strength far above his age or normal condition

The Extraordinary Activities of Satan Defined - The following is taken from Fr. Gabriele Amorth's second book "An Exorcist More Stories." Fr. Amorth's book is published by IGNATIUS released in 2002. The boundaries between one category and another are not clear-cut, because there is a lot of mingling and compounding of symptoms.

External Pain - deals strictly with physical suffering. This includes the beatings, scourging, and injuries caused by inexplicable pushing, falling objects, and so on, that we read about in the lives of many saints, such as the Curé of Ars. Saint Paul of the Cross, and Padre Pio. These occurrences are not as rare as we may think, and the demon's activity is usually confined to external activity; internal activity, if any, is only temporary and limited to the duration of a particular disturbance.

Diabolic Possession - is the gravest form of demonic activity, which allows a continuing presence of a demon in a human body. The evil symptoms do not have to be continuous but can alternate between periods of crisis and periods of rest. Possession implies intervals of temporary suspension of mental, intellectual, affective, and volitive faculties. Symptoms can include the knowledge of languages unknown to the victim, superhuman strength, and the ability to know the occult or someone else's thoughts. Typically, there is an aversion to anything sacred, often in conjunction with blasphemy. There are also frauds who pose as demoniac; therefore, we need to be extremely wary.

Diabolic Oppression - is a ransom discomfort. We must remember that symptoms and gravity differ greatly case by case. This oppression can strike health, job, affections, relationship with others, and so on. Its symptoms include unexplainable rages and a tendency to complete isolation. Oppression can affect both individual and groups (even very large groups).

Diabolic Obsession- causes an almost split personality. Our will remains free, but it is oppressed by obsessive thoughts. The victim experiences thoughts that may be rationally absurd but of such a nature that he is unable to free himself. The obsessed person lives in a perpetual state of prostration, with persistent temptations to suicide. We must be aware that the temptation to commit suicide is also present in diabolic possession and diabolic oppression.

Diabolic Infestation - In this case, the malefic activity is directed toward places (houses, offices, stores, fields), objects (cars, pillows, mattresses, dolls) and animals, therefore it only indirectly affects man. Origen tells us that the early Christians resorted to exorcisms in these situations.

Diabolic Subjugation - The term indicates a voluntary pact--implicit or explicit---with Satan, by which we submit to the lordship of the demon. There are also involuntary times with the evil one; these cases fall into the preceding categories, especially the most severe: possession.

How many of those signs are seen with the ordinary mentally ill person?

September 12, 2006

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SIGNS OF POSSESSION (from the Roman Ritual of Exorcism)

The following are symptoms of possession as represented in the Roman Ritual of Exorcism. In most cases, a victim will have one or more of the traits listed.

Victim speaks or understands unknown languages without ever studying the language being spoken or heard

Victim clearly knows things that are distant or hidden

Victim can predict future events (sometimes through dreams)

Well hells bells, I manifest all those abilities quite fine just on my own (with perhaps a slight modification to #1), so I would have to question whether this is not a list based in fear of the unknown and a complete misunderstanding of the nature of these phenomena, or just a prejudicial attempt to sway the masses to the notion that those endowed with such heightened pattern recognition and accompanying senses can ONLY be considered "diabolical" in nature (whether this is cast as being owned & operated by demons or fully in league therewith.)

As for your question, it's always possible that someone with those talents could also be mentally or emotionally unbalanced or disturbed in some way. Society these days is not kind to its gifted and exceptional on any end of the spectrum, particularly those who cannot early be bent to its status quo or agenda. I remember an incident when I was walking to work many years ago from a metro stop and an obviously schizophrenic man took to walking down the street behind me and speaking out loud as if he were a voice in my head. It was rather unnerving indeed.

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Victim has an intense hatred for holy things

Having false religion shoved in one's face, having been repeatedly spiritually abused, alone can cause this type of abreaction to things associated with said religion, whether these are objects ... or concepts.

Could be manifested by someone with a mental or emotional disturbance if they have religious trauma or trauma associated with religion.

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Victim shows a physical strength far above his age or normal condition

That's not uncommon for mental patients actually ... plenty of stories out there of persons of small and slight stature fighting staff at hospitals and requiring three to six persons to restrain them.

Apropos of nothing... "victim"??? Hmmm. Interesting choice of words, considering most people treat those possessed or suspected thereof more like "perpetrators" of some type.

September 12, 2006

Victim speaks or understands unknown languages without ever studying the language being spoken or heard

[:"red"]Presumably (a) a real language, and ( you have to be VERY sure of the person's history - what lang did grandma speak...[/]

Victim clearly knows things that are distant or hidden

[:"red"]Presumably true and, again, the possibilities for fraud or misunderstanding are huge[/]

Victim can predict future events (sometimes through dreams)

[:"red"] and they have to be unlikely and unambiguous and happen [/]

Victim has an intense hatred for holy things

[:"red"] Typical psych symptom - my wife was often amazed at how many psych pts at her hospital had religious weirdness as part of their condition - strongly for or against [/]

Victim shows a physical strength far above his age or normal condition

[:"red"] See this all the time in drug addicts, and other circumstances [/]

The Extraordinary Activities of Satan Defined - The following is taken from Fr. Gabriele Amorth's second book "An Exorcist More Stories." Fr. Amorth's book is published by IGNATIUS released in 2002. The boundaries between one category and another are not clear-cut, because there is a lot of mingling and compounding of symptoms.

External Pain - deals strictly with physical suffering. This includes the beatings, scourging, and injuries caused by inexplicable pushing, falling objects, and so on, that we read about in the lives of many saints, such as the Curé of Ars. Saint Paul of the Cross, and Padre Pio. These occurrences are not as rare as we may think, and the demon's activity is usually confined to external activity; internal activity, if any, is only temporary and limited to the duration of a particular disturbance.

[:"red"] self-mutilation is a psych symptom [/]

Diabolic Possession - is the gravest form of demonic activity, which allows a continuing presence of a demon in a human body. The evil symptoms do not have to be continuous but can alternate between periods of crisis and periods of rest. Possession implies intervals of temporary suspension of mental, intellectual, affective, and volitive faculties. Symptoms can include the knowledge of languages unknown to the victim, superhuman strength, and the ability to know the occult or someone else's thoughts. Typically, there is an aversion to anything sacred, often in conjunction with blasphemy. There are also frauds who pose as demoniac; therefore, we need to be extremely wary.

Diabolic Oppression - is a ransom discomfort. We must remember that symptoms and gravity differ greatly case by case. This oppression can strike health, job, affections, relationship with others, and so on. Its symptoms include unexplainable rages and a tendency to complete isolation. Oppression can affect both individual and groups (even very large groups).

[:"red"] Depression, and don't forget the possibilities for food poisoning and mind altering drugs [/]

Diabolic Obsession- causes an almost split personality. Our will remains free, but it is oppressed by obsessive thoughts. The victim experiences thoughts that may be rationally absurd but of such a nature that he is unable to free himself. The obsessed person lives in a perpetual state of prostration, with persistent temptations to suicide. We must be aware that the temptation to commit suicide is also present in diabolic possession and diabolic oppression.

[:"red"] Depression and other causes. So common that in EMS we have abbreviations for it - SI/HI (suicidal/homicidal intent/ideation), and jargon "we went there for a sad person" [/]

Diabolic Infestation - In this case, the malefic activity is directed toward places (houses, offices, stores, fields), objects (cars, pillows, mattresses, dolls) and animals, therefore it only indirectly affects man. Origen tells us that the early Christians resorted to exorcisms in these situations.

[:"red"] Always found to be a human agent when properly investigated [/]

Diabolic Subjugation - The term indicates a voluntary pact--implicit or explicit---with Satan, by which we submit to the lordship of the demon. There are also involuntary times with the evil one; these cases fall into the preceding categories, especially the most severe: possession.

[:"red"] You can enter into a pact with The Great Spagetti Monster of Lovers Lane - it doesn't mean you are possessed by him[/]

September 12, 2006

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bevin said:

[:"red"] You can enter into a pact with The Great Spaghetti Monster of Lovers Lane - it doesn't mean you are possessed by him[/]

September 12, 2006

Bevin do you believe in the existence of Lucifer, and if not, what purpose do you think that archetype serves as a mythic element?

September 12, 2006

I wonder if the assumption is correct that a possessed person has symptoms which mimick one with a DSM-IV diagnosis. Perhaps they can have no DSM criteria, be highly functioning in society, and yet still be possessed. EGW has said that anyone who has a cherished sin is under the possession of a demon(s). That could be anybody.

September 12, 2006

Woah Sid ... way to pump up the fear!

There's a fundamental flaw with such a statement, though. I'm sure Bevin can elaborate better than me ... Bevin??? Running low on brain battery ... take this one please!!

September 12, 2006

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Nicodema said:

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John317 said:

I worked at a large medical institution when medical staff, including a well-known doctor, observed a young, "possessed" woman get thrown down a flight of stairs and against the walls.

And they are 100% certain beyond all shadow of doubt that she did not trip on something or even stumble over her own feet just a split second before what they saw?

The people who saw it happen said that it appeared just as if she had been picked up by an invisible power and thrown against the walls and then thrown down the stairs. The witnesses included a nurse, a doctor, and a medical student, as well as an Adventist pastor and former school administrator. She had been in the hospital undergoing evaluation and treatment for several days. The pastor was called because her parents and her doctors did not know what more they could do to help her.

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John317 said:

Several problems with trying to draw the lines "firmly and clearly" between demon possession and mental illness are (1) many of the symptoms for both possession and mental illness are either the same or very similar;

Which itself is a good argument against the existence of demon possession as anything other than an old-world name for mental illness ... but go on ...

The New Testament clearly teaches the existence of Satan and his demons as personal beings and of demon possession. One cannot deny this unless one chooses to say that the writers of the New Testament wrote things that were not true and that Jesus taught things that are false. Besides, just because the symptoms are similar and in some cases the same does not mean that demon possession does not exist. There are many illness that have similar or exactly the same symptoms but that never causes us to deny the existence of any one of those illnesses.

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John317 said:

(2) Satan and his demons are very good at suppressing or camouflaging symptoms and "problems" when it is to their advantage to do so. It is always to his advantage for people either to be unaware of their problem or for others not to believe in such problems. The longer he can keep the problem from being diagnosed properly, the greater advantage Satan has over his victims;

Precisely the point I raised above, yes ...

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John317 said:

(3) It is always a dangerous, foolish thing for people to think they can diagnose "demon-possession" in others on the basis of a few symptoms or after a short experience with someone.

Hear, hear!! I'll drink to that and raise you one up: not only is it a dangerous, FOOLISH thing for someone to think they can diagnose demon possession in others but it is just as dangerous and foolish for people to go around thinking they can assess the heart/mind/spirit of another person in ANY sense based on either superfluous things like their manner of dress, adornment, and speech or even weightier things like their point of view, ideas and opinions. It is consummate arrogance for anyone to believe he has the mind of God so completely grasped that he stands in a position to assess the state of another's soul or heart. God alone knows, and He doesn't GOSSIP.

Well, of course. No one who knows anything about the subject under discussion would presume to do those things, certainly not in terms of demon possession.

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John317 said:

There are many symptoms of possession, but in the final analysis, it is the victim of possession himself that must decide the issue. Often the possessed person comes to the realization that he is under the control of Satan or that he is not in control of his life.

But a person may "know" this from the outset of his situation, "know" it completely and thoroughly, even express it in precisely those terms: "Satan has taken me over" ... "I have no will of my own" ... "My thoughts are his and his feelings are mine ..." etc. and still it could all be the result of what psychiatrists refer to as "delusion of alien control" combined with delusions of "thought insertion". It could even be a spiritual variant of delusional parasitosis, or a highly sublimated form of erotomania in the case of incubus/succubus type experiences. [/quote}

Yes, true. But again that shouldn't be understood to mean that there is no such thing as genuine demon possession. There are all sorts of causes of various behaviors and emotional problems, and one should not jump to the conclusion that someone is demon possessed because one observes what one might take to be "symptoms."

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John317 said:

But it is also true that a person can be wrong about being possessed or not possessed. In a word, it is a very complex phenomenon which does not exactly render itself easily to documentary studies.

Precisely -- and bear in mind we've not yet proven conclusively that such a thing even exists as something separate from an old-world label for a variety of mental illnesses, emotional imbalances, and convenient wholesale discrediting/invalidation/villianization of one's opponents in the marketplace of ideas. (The spiritual equivalent of calling someone a "terrorist" nowadays: it shuts off thought, closes the mind, and turns a person's avoidance/repulsion meter up full tilt.)

You never will prove that it exists in the way you use that term. Neither will you ever prove, in that sense, the existence of Jesus or of God. There is only the weight of evidence.

September 12, 2006

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John317 said:

... just because the symptoms are similar and in some cases the same does not mean that demon possession does not exist. There are many illness that have similar or exactly the same symptoms but that never causes us to deny the existence of any one of those illnesses.

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(by Nicodema)

But a person may "know" this from the outset of his situation, "know" it completely and thoroughly, even express it in precisely those terms .... and still it could all be the result of what psychiatrists refer to as "delusion of alien control" combined with delusions of "thought insertion". It could even be a spiritual variant of delusional parasitosis, or a highly sublimated form of erotomania in the case of incubus/succubus type experiences.

Yes, true. But again that shouldn't be understood to mean that there is no such thing as genuine demon possession. There are all sorts of causes of various behaviors and emotional problems, and one should not jump to the conclusion that someone is demon possessed because one observes what one might take to be "symptoms."

[:"blue"] .....So what is "definitive" to you, then, in telling the difference? Other than someone being thrown downstairs ... is there any consistent element (or elements) you would identify as earmarking demonic possession as opposed to mental illness? [/]

September 12, 2006

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bevin said:

Nico's reply raises the whole issue of how we know things.

The answer is critical to how whole areas of 'knowledge' develop.

There have only been three basic proposals

1a) Emotional - "I feel it to be true, therefore it is"

1b) Authoritative - "My Book/God/Leader told me so, therefore it is"

2) Scientific - "We have reproducible experiments, therefore we know what it is not"

There is no real difference between the 1a & 1b, and a HUGE gap between them an 2.

The usual argument in favor of the existence AT ALL of demon possession is that Jesus said it happens. To me, all that means is that Jesus was meeting people where he found them.

There would be one basic proof of demon possession - the person doing something that science can't explain. And there are no rigorously documented instances.

Instead there are obvious instances of fraud, and there are obvious instances of the churches (who have strong vested interest in scaring people) not doing a proper job of trying to detect such fraud.

Just look at all the Weeping Statues of Mary nonsense.

/Bevin

If what happened in the NT in regard to demon possession was due to Jesus meeting people where he found them, perhaps everything else he taught, such as the coming of his Kingdom, the existence of His Father, etc., was also simply instances of Jesus meeting the people where he found them.

Where does such an explanation of Jesus's teaching end except with confusion over what is true and what is false in the Bible? Shouldn't we then pick and choose what we think is relevent and true for us individually?

The truth of it is, however, that the existence of demon possession does not simply rest on what the NT says. It exists today even in the the so-called advanced, sophisticated societies of the Western world; but it is like belief in Jesus and in God: people will believe it who are open to the evidence and who study the subject beyond the superficial. Those who aren't most likely won't.

September 12, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said:

Where does such an explanation of Jesus's teaching end except with confusion over what is true and what is false in the Bible? Shouldn't we then pick and choose what we think is relevent and true for us individually?

The truth of it is, however, that the existence of demon possession does not simply rest on what the NT says. It exists today even in the the so-called advanced, sophisticated societies of the Western world; but it is like belief in Jesus and in God: people will believe it who are open to the evidence and who study the subject beyond the superficial. Those who aren't most likely won't.

Still playing devil's advocate here (pardon the pun) ... why is it so important to believe in demonic possession in particular? Why make such a strong parallel, as though faith in Jesus and God itself must stand or fall on such a basis?

Just askin'...

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Hitler and Stalin were possessed by the Devil

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