Hitler and Stalin were possessed by the Devil

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said:

... just because the symptoms are similar and in some cases the same does not mean that demon possession does not exist. There are many illness that have similar or exactly the same symptoms but that never causes us to deny the existence of any one of those illnesses.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

(by Nicodema)

But a person may "know" this from the outset of his situation, "know" it completely and thoroughly, even express it in precisely those terms .... and still it could all be the result of what psychiatrists refer to as "delusion of alien control" combined with delusions of "thought insertion". It could even be a spiritual variant of delusional parasitosis, or a highly sublimated form of erotomania in the case of incubus/succubus type experiences.

Yes, true. But again that shouldn't be understood to mean that there is no such thing as genuine demon possession. There are all sorts of causes of various behaviors and emotional problems, and one should not jump to the conclusion that someone is demon possessed because one observes what one might take to be "symptoms."

[:"blue"] .....So what is "definitive" to you, then, in telling the difference? Other than someone being thrown downstairs ... is there any consistent element (or elements) you would identify as earmarking demonic possession as opposed to mental illness? [/]

I think that the proof is to be found in the final result of the "treatment"-- that is, the prayer and the casting out of the demons that possess the person. For instance, if somone has had severe problems of a particular nature for years, has had the demons cast out of them, and then for many years lives free from those problems, experiencing a new life in Christ, then I would say that is about as good a piece of evidence as you are ever going to get that the person was demon possessed.

Let me give an illustration. There was a woman who was allergic to everything except two or three dull food items. This allergy was so severe that she had to live for years in a sterile environment, in something like a special box built just for her, many miles from any neighbor. She had gone to a lot of specialists who finally told her they couldn't help her. They said she would have to just learn to live with her allergies. Other things in her life convinced her that her problem was demonic. She called an Adventist pastor who went to see her and prayed with her. Voices were present that identified themselves as demons. Finally, after hours of prayer and after the demons were forced in the name of Jesus Christ to leave her, the woman ceased to experience the allergies. It has now been over 25 years since that time, and she's been completely free of those probelms.

September 13, 2006

Wow. []http://forum.projectshapeshift.net/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/]

Stories like that always impress me ... ones that have an ENDING. Where the effect is ... permanent ....

............. doesn't even have to be a "deliverance" thing either ............... [:"silver"]oh what I wouldn't give to touch that ... [/]

.....................

..................... ehhhrrrmrmmmmm ... so John317 what do you make of the notion of "perfect possession" that I brought up earlier in this thread. You seem pretty versed in the subject so I'm guessing you have done some reading and probably come across this theory before? Can't remember who first advanced it ... Bubeck? Peck? ... at any rate do you think there's any truth to it? Just wondering.

September 13, 2006

*T.O.

As to witnesses...what witness proof would be acceptable?

John stated

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

a well-known doctor, observed a young, "possessed" woman get thrown down a flight of stairs and against the walls.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

The people who saw it happen said that it appeared just as if she had been picked up by an invisible power and thrown against the walls and then thrown down the stairs. The witnesses included a nurse, a doctor, and a medical student, as well as an Adventist pastor and former school administrator

Does the number of witnesses make the event more or less believable? How about the credibility of the witnesses as a doctor, nurse. Pastor etc; obviously more learned than john Q public.(going with the thought that the more educated you are the less apt to believe in things supernatural) were present. Tripping on carpet or a mote on hardwood would not, IMHO cause someone to "appear to be picked up and tossed".

Is this a case of "I wont believe until I see it with my own eyes or feel it with my own hands"? As for scientific/medical tests, even those could be faked or outcomes weighted for/against possession. So what would make you a believer?

September 13, 2006

Amelia are you addressing that last question to anyone in particular? Or just to whomever happens to read the thread?

Just wondering.

September 13, 2006

Just a general whomever wants to answer or not kind of question.LOL

September 13, 2006

I guess for me it's not a matter of what would make me a "believer". I'm open minded either way. What I'd like to see is a more definitive line drawn between demon possession and mental illness.

The things I've experienced in my own life, for example -- I experienced them exactly as I experienced them. The demons were real in my experience, the experience of being taken over and subsequently forcibly "trained" and all the rest of the things that happened to me are all real to me in the literal sense. However, there DO exist viable explanations for those things in psychiatry as well.

And then there are my own theories ... which are beyond the scope of either psychiatry or christian-flavored demonology ... but probably would make little sense to many others here. More to the point, they are only theories about myself in particular, so they would not apply to anyone else's case scenario anyway.

September 13, 2006

The theme of evil/fallen angels appears everywhere in the Bible, from Gen to Rev

It appears in prophecy (eg Rev), in literal accounts (eg the Gospels), and in the mystery plays (eg Job)

Yes, I think the message of literal actual beings is what is intended.

The concept of demon possession is nowhere near as wide-spread, or as definite.

The biggest two questions that one needs to ask are

(a) where is the account of Jesus healing the psych patient?

( why does lithium/depakote/ECT exorcise demons?

/Bevin

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I wonder if the assumption is correct that a possessed person has symptoms which mimick one with a DSM-IV diagnosis. Perhaps they can have no DSM criteria, be highly functioning in society, and yet still be possessed. EGW has said that anyone who has a cherished sin is under the possession of a demon(s). That could be anybody.

And maybe everybody who is a goody-two-shoes is possessed by the spirit of Santa Claus.

If being possessed makes no difference, then why worry about it at all?

/Bevin

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

The people who saw it happen said that it appeared just as if she had been picked up by an invisible power and thrown against the walls and then thrown down the stairs. The witnesses included a nurse, a doctor, and a medical student, as well as an Adventist pastor and former school administrator. She had been in the hospital undergoing evaluation and treatment for several days. The pastor was called because her parents and her doctors did not know what more they could do to help her.

There are two lessons that need to be learned that have come out of the research in the paranormal.

(1) The NUMBER of observers is irrelevant. Magicians stand on stage in Los Vegas every night and fool thousands at a time. Benny Hinn pulls his flim-flam in front of thousands.

(2) People see what they want to see - or what you told them they saw. Anyone can fall DOWN stairs. Tell me when you have a report of someone being thrown UP them.

Let me tell you a true story from the ER. A respectable looking middle age patient was brought in by the ambulance EMT's unresponsive and limp. The patient had told co-workers that they had an electrolyte problem, and that it could cause them to become this way, but that they could still hear what was going on around them. We put the patient on a bed, got vitals, put on a cardiac monitor, put in an IV TKO, and just watched. After about 20 minutes I commented to the nurse "they are responsive now - we didn't give anything did we?" "Nope", said the nurse, "we see miracles like that all the time here".

House is right. Patients lie.

Patients fake pain, they fake unconsciousness, and they fake seizures. And some of them, through practise, get really good at it. Some even pee themselves as part of the seizure act.

/Bevin

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said:

Where does such an explanation of Jesus's teaching end except with confusion over what is true and what is false in the Bible? Shouldn't we then pick and choose what we think is relevent and true for us individually?

The truth of it is, however, that the existence of demon possession does not simply rest on what the NT says. It exists today even in the the so-called advanced, sophisticated societies of the Western world; but it is like belief in Jesus and in God: people will believe it who are open to the evidence and who study the subject beyond the superficial. Those who aren't most likely won't.

Still playing devil's advocate here (pardon the pun) ... why is it so important to believe in demonic possession in particular? Why make such a strong parallel, as though faith in Jesus and God itself must stand or fall on such a basis?

Just askin'...

Of course there are other doctrines and ideas taught in the Bible of far greater importance than demon possession. I wouldn't say that faith in Jesus and God stands or fall on the basis of whether one believes in demon possession. Doubtless many will be saved in God's kingdom who don't believe in it, just as many will be saved who don't believe in any number of Bible techings. I'm sure, for instance, that quite a number will be surprised to learn that Jesus Christ is God.

Yet it does seem important to me that we remember the words of Jesus at Mark 16: 15-18, which include, "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons..." Please also see Mark 9: 38; Luke 10: 17; Acts 5:16; 8: 7; 16: 18; 19: 13-16.

If we don't believe in demon possession, whether we know it or not, we are saying we don't believe in what Jesus said would be one of the main accompanying signs of those who believe in Him. We don't even apparently accept the legitimacy of that sign. Aren't we then calling Jesus a liar? Or maybe we're just saying the Bible contains a great deal of foolishness about demons, which Jesus and Peter and Paul and the rest of the New Testament saints naively believed in. If Jesus didn't believe in it but only used it for the sake of the ignorant masses, then why should I trust anything he says? And if they believed in something so ridiculous, who knows, maybe that guillibility was why they believed in the story of the resurrection.

What we possibily fail to realize, in rejecting the reality of demon possession, is that that the casting out of demons represents the casting out of sin from our lives. Jesus used it as a metaphor for the cleansing of the soul temple from all forms of sin. They were sermons. Just as the weekly Sabbath is a metaphor of salvation and heaven, demon possession is a metaphor of Satan's complete domination of our lives, and his being cast out is a metaphor of our liberation from sin. I would like to suggest that soon after we cease to believe in the metaphor, we may well cease to truly believe in the reality.

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

bevin said:

The theme of evil/fallen angels appears everywhere in the Bible, from Gen to Rev

It appears in prophecy (eg Rev), in literal accounts (eg the Gospels), and in the mystery plays (eg Job)

Yes, I think the message of literal actual beings is what is intended.

Do you personally think this is the literal truth, though? That such beings exist?

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

The concept of demon possession is nowhere near as wide-spread, or as definite.

The only place I recall seeing something remotely suggesting that in the OT is the case of Saul (where David had to play the harp to drive out the evil spirit or whatever). And it shows up in the Gospels briefly in the accounts of one or two men delivered by Jesus driving out the demons.

BUT I would have to ask in all fairness, IF the demons are not literal wicked possessing entities, what's up with that story about the pigs, then???

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

The biggest two questions that one needs to ask are

(a) where is the account of Jesus healing the psych patient?

( why does lithium/depakote/ECT exorcise demons?

Dunno about (a) but I'd say in answer to ( that, "it doesn't." Lithium, depakote, ECT, etc. address symptoms of mental illness (with varying degrees of success ranging from excellent to none).

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said:

What we possibily fail to realize, in rejecting the reality of demon possession, is that that the casting out of demons represents the casting out of sin from our lives. Jesus used it as a metaphor for the cleansing of the soul temple from all forms of sin. They were sermons. Just as the weekly Sabbath is a metaphor of salvation and heaven, demon possession is a metaphor of Satan's complete domination of our lives, and his being cast out is a metaphor of our liberation from sin. I would like to suggest that soon after we cease to believe in the metaphor, we may well cease to truly believe in the reality.

Why can't the metaphor stand on its own AS a metaphor though? Seems to me it makes logical sense -- AND speaks more to the common man, who is apt to lack any firsthand experience with the occult or trafficking with spirits -- taken entirely AS a metaphor, without the need for there to be a literal component to it.

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

bevin said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

The people who saw it happen said that it appeared just as if she had been picked up by an invisible power and thrown against the walls and then thrown down the stairs. The witnesses included a nurse, a doctor, and a medical student, as well as an Adventist pastor and former school administrator. She had been in the hospital undergoing evaluation and treatment for several days. The pastor was called because her parents and her doctors did not know what more they could do to help her.

There are two lessons that need to be learned that have come out of the research in the paranormal.

(1) The NUMBER of observers is irrelevant. Magicians stand on stage in Los Vegas every night and fool thousands at a time. Benny Hinn pulls his flim-flam in front of thousands.

(2) People see what they want to see - or what you told them they saw. Anyone can fall DOWN stairs. Tell me when you have a report of someone being thrown UP them.

Let me tell you a true story from the ER. A respectable looking middle age patient was brought in by the ambulance EMT's unresponsive and limp. The patient had told co-workers that they had an electrolyte problem, and that it could cause them to become this way, but that they could still hear what was going on around them. We put the patient on a bed, got vitals, put on a cardiac monitor, put in an IV TKO, and just watched. After about 20 minutes I commented to the nurse "they are responsive now - we didn't give anything did we?" "Nope", said the nurse, "we see miracles like that all the time here".

House is right. Patients lie.

Patients fake pain, they fake unconsciousness, and they fake seizures. And some of them, through practise, get really good at it. Some even pee themselves as part of the seizure act.

/Bevin

Yes, I know. I work regularly with kids who lie all the time, even when it would be easier and make more sense to tell the truth.

But the fact that things like you describe happen doesn't come close to explaining what the Bible says about demon possession, the existence of Satan, and the very real spiritual war being fought over human lives. Many times the faking is all a part of Satan's attempt to trick people into thinking that either there's no serious problem or that demons or demon possession don't really exist. And of course if your enemy can persuade you he doesn't exist, he obviously has a great advantage over you.

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

bevin said:

Patients fake pain, they fake unconsciousness, and they fake seizures. And some of them, through practise, get really good at it. Some even pee themselves as part of the seizure act.

I can't for the life of me comprehend why anyone would want to fake something like that unless they had Munchausen syndrome or whatever. And I don't think Munch. syndrome is that widespread.

People who have delusions are not faking anything -- they fully believe the content of their delusions.

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said:

... all a part of Satan's attempt to trick people into thinking that either there's no serious problem or that demons or demon possession don't really exist. And of course if your enemy can persuade you he doesn't exist, he obviously has a great advantage over you.

But if we are going to go to the logic that "the cleverest trick pulled by the devil was to convince the world that he did not exist" then we are banking on something of an epistemological[:"red"]*[/] quagmire here. It is common knowledge that a negative cannot be proven.

---------------------------------

[:"red"]*[/] I'm constantly substituting this word for the word I really want, which constantly eludes me. I want the word for begging the nature of how we determine reality itself, not just the limits of human knowledge, and I'm constantly forgetting it!! ACK! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/AAdoh.gif" alt="" />

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said:

What we possibily fail to realize, in rejecting the reality of demon possession, is that that the casting out of demons represents the casting out of sin from our lives. Jesus used it as a metaphor for the cleansing of the soul temple from all forms of sin. They were sermons. Just as the weekly Sabbath is a metaphor of salvation and heaven, demon possession is a metaphor of Satan's complete domination of our lives, and his being cast out is a metaphor of our liberation from sin. I would like to suggest that soon after we cease to believe in the metaphor, we may well cease to truly believe in the reality.

Why can't the metaphor stand on its own AS a metaphor though? Seems to me it makes logical sense -- AND speaks more to the common man, who is apt to lack any firsthand experience with the occult or trafficking with spirits -- taken entirely AS a metaphor, without the need for there to be a literal component to

it.

Here the metaphor would be demon possession and the casting out of demons. It wouldn't make sense to say that the Bible uses something that was evidently intended to be understood literally but which turns out at last to be a fabrication. That is all very well to say about James Joyce or William Faulkner, because their books are understood to be fiction right from the first page. If demon possession never existed, then there seems no good reason to listen further to the Bible when it asks me to believe it about heaven or God. I believe the Bible teaches the demons were real, but Jesus used them to teach people a greater truth, which is that Satan and sin can dominate us, yet with Jesus' help we can gain freedom from sin. The reality is the freedom from sin's domination. That is the literal component that I was referring to. The metaphors of demon possession and the casting out of demons do indeed stand on their own-- that is, they are realities in and of themselves-- but unless they point to greater truths, that of slavery to sin apart from Christ and freedom from sin in union with Christ, it seems to me they lack power to heal and save.

September 13, 2006

Hey John317 I think you misunderstood my question there. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

What I meant was ... if demon possession and ekbalein are a metaphor, why cannot the metaphor stand on its own AS a "pure" metaphor without the need to have a literal component underpinning it? In other words, it WORKS as a metaphor, even in the absence of there ever having been a LITERAL reality there, don't you think? So that being the case, one could ask, is believing in a LITERAL reality of it really necessary for the metaphor to be of use? The answer, it seems to me, would be no. IF, as you say, Jesus used it to teach a greater truth, and that truth is found in the metaphor, not in the literal underpinning, perhaps the metaphor needs no literal underpinning. It is sufficient that we have a developed mythos that tells such stories, and from those stories, the metaphor arises.

Make sense now? Or did I just muddy the water more ... sorry ... I tend to be verbose, it's hard for me to be concise at times.

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said:

... all a part of Satan's attempt to trick people into thinking that either there's no serious problem or that demons or demon possession don't really exist. And of course if your enemy can persuade you he doesn't exist, he obviously has a great advantage over you.

But if we are going to go to the logic that "the cleverest trick pulled by the devil was to convince the world that he did not exist" then we are banking on something of an epistemological[:"red"]*[/] quagmire here. It is common knowledge that a negative cannot be proven.

But if we accept what the Bible teaches about Satan, that is exactly what we will believe about him, epistemological quagmire or no. The Bible says Satan blinds people to the truth and that he often takes on the form of an angel of light. You can believe your epistemology or the Bible. Take your choice. The just shall live by faith, not espistemology. You can study or accept Kant and Hegel all you want but that won't get you one step closer to faith in Jesus Christ and in His word, which is really what's all important. Remember the Bible is a more sure word than our personal experiences and feelings about things. Your espistemology, on the other hand, is completely subjective and, therefore, unreliable, as a way to truth, particularly spiritual truths.

---------------------------------

[:"red"]*[/] I'm constantly substituting this word for the word I really want, which constantly eludes me. I want the word for begging the nature of how we determine reality itself, not just the limits of human knowledge, and I'm constantly forgetting it!! ACK! <img src="/adventist/images/graemlins/AAdoh.gif" alt="" />

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I can't for the life of me comprehend why anyone would want to fake something like that unless they had Munchausen syndrome or whatever. And I don't think Munch. syndrome is that widespread.

Get's them an evening in the ER instead of being bored at the homeless shelter

/Bevin

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Do you personally think this is the literal truth, though? That such beings exist?

I have no scientific evidence in favor of their existence.

Just as with the Plan of Salvation etc, I accept it as plausible and make decisions in my life assuming that it is so.

/Bevin

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

Hey John317 I think you misunderstood my question there. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

What I meant was ... if demon possession and ekbalein are a metaphor, why cannot the metaphor stand on its own AS a "pure" metaphor without the need to have a literal component underpinning it? In other words, it WORKS as a metaphor, even in the absence of there ever having been a LITERAL reality there, don't you think? So that being the case, one could ask, is believing in a LITERAL reality of it really necessary for the metaphor to be of use? The answer, it seems to me, would be no. IF, as you say, Jesus used it to teach a greater truth, and that truth is found in the metaphor, not in the literal underpinning, perhaps the metaphor needs no literal underpinning. It is sufficient that we have a developed mythos that tells such stories, and from those stories, the metaphor arises.

Make sense now? Or did I just muddy the water more ... sorry ... I tend to be verbose, it's hard for me to be concise at times.

Yes, I understood you, I think, from the beginning. That is what many people do with almost the entire Bible-- they ask us to accept the deeper significance of the stories, even while telling us that the stories are not factual. For instance, I may be expected to accept the deeper significance of Christ's death and resurrection even as I am told that Jesus never actually died as the Bible describes nor was he literally raised from the grave. In this case, I am expected to accept a deeper meaning to demon possession and to the casting out of demons even as I am told that those things never actually happened. But if they never happened, on what basis can I be expected to take seriously the healing and salvation that they are supposed to point to?

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

But if we are going to go to the logic that "the cleverest trick pulled by the devil was to convince the world that he did not exist" then we are banking on something of an epistemological[:"red"]*[/] quagmire here. It is common knowledge that a negative cannot be proven.

But if we accept what the Bible teaches about Satan, that is exactly what we will believe about him, epistemological quagmire or no. The Bible says Satan blinds people to the truth and that he often takes on the form of an angel of light. You can believe your epistemology or the Bible. Take your choice. The just shall live by faith, not espistemology. You can study or accept Kant and Hegel all you want but that won't get you one step closer to faith in Jesus Christ and in His word, which is really what's all important. Remember the Bible is a more sure word than our personal experiences and feelings about things. Your espistemology, on the other hand, is completely subjective and, therefore, unreliable, as a way to truth, particularly spiritual truths.

(1) I thought I made it clear that "epistemological" was a placeholder word because I could not remember the precise word I was seeking?

(2) John317, we will get along a LOT better if you refrain from making assumptions about what I read/study and what "MY" supposed "epistemology" consists of. Fact of the matter is I haven't read Kant or Hegel other than a cursory glimpse MANY moons ago in college, long forgotten now. Up until now I have enjoyed our exchange as a pleasant one -- and hope the feeling has been mutual -- but I warn you if you are going to take this attitude with me, and fling these sorts of assumptions and presumptions in my face instead of dialoguing, it will bring that pleasant factor to a screeching halt pretty durn quick. And I will NOT be held responsible for what transpires when that happens.

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said:

Yes, I understood you, I think, from the beginning. That is what many people do with almost the entire Bible-- they ask us to accept the deeper significance of the stories, even while telling us that the stories are not factual. For instance, I may be expected to accept the deeper significance of Christ's death and resurrection even as I am told that Jesus never actually died as the Bible describes nor was he literally raised from the grave. In this case, I am expected to accept a deeper meaning to demon possession and to the casting out of demons even as I am told that those things never actually happened. But if they never happened, on what basis can I be expected to take seriously the healing and salvation that they are supposed to point to?

OK, well then I guess I did not understand YOUR post ... but your point(s) are clear here so thanks for clarifying.

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Nicodema said:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said:

And they are 100% certain beyond all shadow of doubt that she did not trip on something or even stumble over her own feet just a split second before what they saw?

Many years ago a friend of mine, an over-the-road trucker, parked his semi after dark alongside what he considered to be just an open rural wide spot in the road, to get a little shut-eye. During the night he woke, feeling his body rise above the bed inside the sleeper of his truck, seemingly suspended in the air with no discernable known entity doing the lifting.

It's been so many years ago I can't remember exactly the order of the phenomenon, but being a Christian (Adventist)

he was stricken with enough alarm to express himself in prayer, that Jesus might grant whatever was necessary to remove whatever it was that was disturbing his sleep.

According to his word, as soon as the name of Jesus was invoked for care, his body gradually descended until he was again laying as he was before being awakened by the lifting.

The next morning when he awoke to prepare to leave his all-night reststop, he noticed a sign across from his parking place inviting whoever passed by that they were free to join some sort of spiritualist gathering that was being conducted where a sign pointed, indicating a close area.

After these many years later, I still have the same conclusion in how to deal safely with devils, whether in possession or just passing through.

[:"red"] "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." [/] Ephesians 6:12 KJV

And the best way to handle them is to leave them in the hands of Him Who best knows how to handle them.

[:"red"] "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." [/] Jude 1:9 KJV

September 13, 2006

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

John317 said:

You can believe your epistemology or the Bible. Take your choice. The just shall live by faith, not espistemology.

And certainly not the wisdom of man.

[:"red"] "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men." [/] 1 Corinthians 1:25 ASV

OTOH, one needs to believe the Word before one can obtain spiritual insight. The first sin was not that small act of taking a bite of fruit. It was believing the words of the enemy of souls before believing the Word of God.

[:"red"] "God has said, 'You shall not eat from it.... or you will die.'"

The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!....

she took from its fruit and ate." [/] Genesis 3:3,4

Sign In

Hitler and Stalin were possessed by the Devil

Recommended Posts

John317

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Amelia

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Amelia

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

bevin

Link to comment

Share on other sites

bevin

Link to comment

Share on other sites

bevin

Link to comment

Share on other sites

John317

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

John317

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

John317

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

John317

Link to comment

Share on other sites

bevin

Link to comment

Share on other sites

bevin

Link to comment

Share on other sites

John317

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

LifeHiscost

Link to comment

Share on other sites

LifeHiscost