SDA Challenges

[Gregory Matthews]

SDA Challenges:  The following article suggests the major challenges that the Seventh-day Adventist Chruch faces in the future.  It is well worth considerting.

https://atoday.org/the-challenges-to-the-church-in-a-nutshell/

 

[Gregory Matthews]

A question has been raised as to conditional prophecy;  The SDA position includes the following:

*  Issues related to the fundamental nature of God, and not conditional.  e.g.  There is a Second Advent that is going to happen.   It is not conditional.

*  Issues related to humanity are likely conditional.  e.g.  The timing of the Second Advent are likely related to a human response to God, which makes the timing of the Second Advent conditional.

 

The classic example of this is the story of Jonan, and the fact that when the people repented, destruction did not happen.

 

[Gustave]

As Pastor Matthews surmised - Historic Creedal Christians would want to explore the following bullet points.

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• Whether we will maintain the view that God is trifurcated, or a dynamic whole.

&

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• Whether we will forget and/or ignore the biblical principle that all Bible prophecy, and Ellen White’s prophecy, is conditional.

I'd agree that the prophecy about Nineveh's destruction was conditional in that the outcome was determinate on what the people in Nineveh did (i.e. if they straightened up they would survive - if they didn't, well......)

Christ however is a different story as this was not a conditional prophecy & here is why I say this.

Isaiah 35, 4 said that God Himself would come and save us and given that Christ Himself stated that Isaiah 35 was speaking of Him even skeptical folks would have to conclude at the minimum that Jesus believed He was "God". 

Past this Jesus explicitly stated that His words would not pass away in Matthew 24, 35. Jesus is even more forceful with this same concept in Mark 13, 31. 

If Jesus is "God" and according to Isaiah 55, 10-11 God's word will never return void a Creedal Trinitarian  when reading that part of the Creed which speaks of Christ's coming, death and resurrection was all "according to the Scriptures" it triggers a certain confirmation when reading the following types of statements Jesus made prior to His death. 

Matthew 7, 22: "Many will say to Me on that day"

Matthew 16,  27-28: "Son of man will come with His angels"

Matthew 19, 28: "When the Son of Man is seated on His throne".

In Matthew 16, 21 - the Scriptures explicitly state that Jesus explained to His Disciples that He HAD TO go to Jerusalem and suffer many things & also be killed and on the 3rd day rise from the dead. If God's word never returns void and Jesus is God Almighty in human flesh Jesus has clearly said His words would never pass away and I've found 105 Scriptures in the Gospels alone which state the types of things I've quoted above. These are Jesus' own "words" and I would suggest that to insert a hypothetical situation whereas God's word could return to God VOID is an admission that Christ was really speaking out of turn when He made all these statements about what was for certain going to happen. 

Luke 24, 25- 27 comes to mind here. I would urge anyone to read this Scripture. 

The Nicene Creed and Apostles Creed are BIG DEALS to Creedal Christians as Creedal Christians believe that these Creeds systematize Sacred Scripture. By this I mean to say that the Creeds take truths from Scripture and put them into a formula that's easy to remember. Everything written in the Creed can be explained in the same manner I've explained why I believe the hypothetical situation promulgated by the SDA Pioneers and Ellen White about the possibility of Jesus sinning and loosing His salvation is not only impossible but heretical. 

I see many bullet points in this article that are likely worthy of discussion by SDA's and I look forward to hearing what people think about them. Interesting stuff. 

[stinsonmarri]

The sadness about Adventists is the same sadness that caused the Hebrews who became Israel to fail. Jacob would have received the birthright by the POWER of THE HOLY SPIRIT if he had waited. Instead, his mother led him down a path of deception and her feeling that she had to help THE ONE who created her and her son. That day, she lost both of her sons. Jacob, on returning home with his family, learned through all the ordeal he went through with his uncle that he needed to feel remorse and change for the sins he committed trying to obtain the birthright. It was not only the lie and deception with his father. It was pride that made him think he was better than his brother. When he met MICHAEL that night and wrestled with HIM, he finally realized he was wrestling with a HOLY ONE! It was that night that Jacob wanted to plead to be forgiven for his sins. That night, he overcame!

Adventist pioneers were committed to understanding the truth. They went up against the odds to understand the truth. It was difficult because the denominations were confusing and odd with each other, but they claimed to believe the same BEING! They felt these denominations wanted to tell people how to serve and obey THE ALMIGHTY and make up how and who THEY were. These pioneers were genuine, honest, humble human beings looking for truth and justice. Sadly, they made mistakes themselves, and EGW, just before she died, wrote:

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How shall we search the Scriptures in order to understand what they teach? We should come to the investigation of God’s word with a contrite heart and a teachable and prayerful spirit. We are not to think, as did the Jews, that our own ideas and opinions are infallible, nor with the papists, that certain individuals are the sole guardians of truth and knowledge that men have no right to search the Scriptures for themselves, but must accept the explanations given by the fathers of the church. We should not study the Bible for the purpose of sustaining our preconceived opinions but with the single object of learning what God has said. TM p. 105

The Adventist church has not listened and has become what the pioneers fought hard to change. We have become confused and stubborn, set in our ways, and follow the same concept that the other denominations have fallen short of what is not in the Bible, knowing that things have been added and subtraction to subject people to believe the way they want and not by allowing choice! We all need to humble ourselves individually and choose to allow THE HOLY SPIRIT to lead. Blessings!

[Gregory Matthews]

The position that I take on conditional prophecy is that it applies only to the aspects of prophecy that depend on a human response.  Jonah is the classic example.  God is unchangeable in His purpose to effect salvation for all who wish to spend eternity with Him.  Christ was God in human form.  I am uncertain as to what Gustave was attempting to say when he said that Christ was not a conditional prophecy.  If he was attempting to say that the First advent was not conditional, I totally agree with him.

Adventists who propose a conditional aspect to prophecy do so in the context of the human element, as with Jonah.  They do not do so, as I understand them, in the context of a changable God.

 

[Gustave]

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Gregory Matthews said: The position that I take on conditional prophecy is that it applies only to the aspects of prophecy that depend on a human response.  Jonah is the classic example.  God is unchangeable in His purpose to effect salvation for all who wish to spend eternity with Him.  Christ was God in human form.  I am uncertain as to what Gustave was attempting to say when he said that Christ was not a conditional prophecy.  If he was attempting to say that the First advent was not conditional, I totally agree with him.

I would agree with you in this with the exception of Christ and that's because I believe God became man without ceasing to be God. I couldn't attribute any statement of Jesus as an either / or type of thing (i.e. did Jesus the man say this or that or Jesus the God?). Jesus was a person and a person makes statements. Of course this where I would say that the Hypostatic Union describes what we know about how the Divine Nature and Human Nature were united. I'm saying this uniting of the two natures was known by God in eternity to be 100% perfect with no possibility of failure. God, who knows the end from the beginning, said as much in over 150 places in Scripture. 

Yes, I'm saying that the 1st Advent of Christ was not conditional and according to God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit Christ's 2nd Advent was not conditional either. 

Mark 13, 26: "people will see the Son of Man coming....."

Mark 14, 46: "you will see the Son of Man seated @ the right hand....."

Luke 1 20: Jesus words will come true at the appointed time.

Luke 9, 26: "when the Son of Man comes in Glory"

Luke 12, 40: Son of Man will come back at a time you don't expect

John 8, 14-18: Jesus answered, “Even if I do bear witness to myself, my testimony is true, for I know whence I have come and whither I am going, but you do not know whence I come or whither I am going.  You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one.  Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he^[c] who sent me.  In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true;  I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me.”

John 14, 1-4: Jesus will leave to prepare a place for us and will return....

And 90 plus other equally explicit statements of Jesus just in the Gospels alone where He insists, He will return to the earth with all power after He dies and raises from the dead. 

[stinsonmarri]

Once again, there are disagreements on something that should be so simple.

Then answered YAHSHUA and Said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, THE SON can do nothing of HIMSELF, but what HE sees THE FATHER Do: for what things soever HE Doeth, these also Doeth THE likewise. For THE FATHER Loveth THE SON, and showeth HIM all things that HIMSELF Doeth: and HE will show HIM Greater works than these, that ye may marvel. But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which THE FATHER hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of ME, that THE FATHER hath sent ME. And THE FATHER HIMSELF, which hath sent ME, hath borne witness of ME. Ye have neither heard HIS VOICE at any time nor seen HIS SHAPE. And ye have not HIS WORD abiding in you: for whom HE hath sent, HIM ye believe not.   Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have everlasting life: and they are they which testify of ME. And ye will not come to ME, that ye might have LIFE. I receive not honor from men.  But I know you, that ye have not the love of ELOHIYM in you. I AM come in MY FATHER’S NAME, and ye receive ME not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that is from THE ONLY ELOHIM you do not seek? John 5:19,20, 36-39,41-43

Here, THE SON states for a fact that it was HIS VOICE from the beginning that was heard. It was HIM that Abraham saw that Jacob wrestled with and was renamed IsraEL, that Moses spoke with, and finally, Moses, Aaron Nadab, Abihu, Joshua, and Seventy Elders saw HIM. They ate with HIM  and did not die.

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, YAHWEH appeared to Abram and said unto him, I AM EL SHADDAI; walk before ME and be thou perfect.  And Yahweh appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day.  And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, (Gen 17:1; 18:1,2 W0Y)

And Jacob was left alone, and there wrestled A MAN with him until the breaking of the day. And when HE saw that he prevailed not against HIM, HE touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with HIM. And HE Said, Let ME go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let THEE go, except THOU bless me.  And HE Said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And HE Said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but IsraEL: for as a prince hast thou power with ELOHIM and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked HIM, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, THY NAME. And HE Said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after MY NAME? And HE Blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place PeniEL: for I have seen ELOHIM face to face, and my life is preserved. (Gen 32:24-30  WOY)

And when YAHWEH saw that he turned aside to see, ELOHIYM called unto him out of the midst of the bush and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. Moreover, he said, I AM THE ELOHIYM of thy father, THE ELOHIYM of Abraham, THE ELOHIYM of Isaac, and THE ELOHIYM of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon THE ELOHIYM. (Ex 3:4, 6 WOY)

And HE Said unto Moses, Come up unto YAHWEH, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off. And Moses alone shall come near YAHWEH: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him. Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And they saw THE ELOHIYM of IsraEL: and there was under HIS FEET as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were like the heavens for brightness. And upon the nobles of the children of IsraEL, HE laid not HIS HAND: also they saw ELOHIYM, and did eat and drink. And YAHWEH Said unto Moses, Come up to ME into the Mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and the Torah and the Command which I have written; that thou mayest teach them. (Ex 24:1,2,9-12 WOY, TS2009) 

YAHSHUA said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. (John 8:58  WOY)

When YAHWEH, THE SON, appeared, HE was not a nature. We need to see that a spirit body is something we do not understand. We do not know how this type of body, THE ELOHIYM, and the angels are made. THEY are not persons, THEY ARE HOLY BEINGS! There are human beings who saw YAHSHUA in HIS SPIRIT SHAPE. YAHSHUA became flesh to show us that HE AND HIS FATHER'S COMMANDMENTS are one and the same. We cannot understand THEIR POWER, nor should we speculate.

The Pharisees never heard THE FATHER'S VOICE or anyone HIS SHAPE or FORM, only the Adams! Because we accept something the Bible states differently, Adventists have accepted the concept of the other denomination. Being confused about who THEY ARE! In the beginning, Genesis clearly stated that Adam, male and female, were made in THEIR RESEMBLANCE, not in THEIR SHAPE like the angels. When YAHSHUA came as a FLESH BEING or THE SECOND ADAM, Israel's light was about to go out! YAHSHUA came to save those looking for the truth, just like our pioneers! They understood THE WAY and followed HIS TRUTH that HE was equal with HIS FATHER! The disciples and the apostle knew who bore record in Heaven. They accepted THE HOLY SPIRIT that YAHSHUA Spoke about. Paul changed his life and became the best writer about why Melchizedek, a Jebusite, Kanaan's son, knew him before Abraham. Paul proved that Kanaan was not cursed. Noah, a drunk who fell from grace, had no power to curse anyone. Then he explained that YAHSHUA would come in Melchizedek order when HE returned to Heaven. So, disagreement between the two thoughts is of no effect! Again, what EGW said that I presented earlier is why people do not understand what is written and should be understood! Blessings!

[Gustave]

Hi Stinsonmarri, 

The point I was making was that prior to Jesus' death He said that His words would NOT FAIL TO COME TO PASS. As you pointed out in your post Jesus said exactly what the Father was saying through Him. If one really believes what Jesus said about His words being not able to fail and looks at the 100 plus places in the Gospels alone where Jesus says what He will do at His "2nd Coming" one approaches an event horizon - either you can take Jesus at His word OR one must accept that The Christ was actually a "potential" Christ who happened to make it through to the end of the crucifixion event without screwing up. 

If that latter position is the one a person settles on Ellen White becomes the corrector of Christ as she corrects / rebukes Jesus by explaining that all Jesus' teaching about what He would do at the 2nd Coming was CONDITIONAL on Jesus not screwing up. 

I just realized that I keep using the term 2nd Coming and historic SDA's believe the 2nd Coming has already taken place - for the sake of argument I'll say that Jesus spoke in such a way as to make claims about what He was going to do when He returned to the earth at the close of time - for the sake of argument I'm ok with the SDA's claiming this is the 3rd or 4th or whatever coming of Christ it is to their way of reckoning. 

 

[Theophilus]

7 hours ago, Gustave said:

just realized that I keep using the term 2nd Coming and historic SDA's believe the 2nd Coming has already taken place

What!!!! I must've been sleeping through church all these years.  The 2nd coming hasn't happened yet.

[Gustave]

3 hours ago, Theophilus said:

What!!!! I must've been sleeping through church all these years.  The 2nd coming hasn't happened yet.

According to Ellen White it has. 

"Jesus quickly ascended to His Father to hear from His lips that He accepted the sacrifice, and to receive all power in heaven and upon earth.... The same day He returned, and showed Himself to His disciples. He suffered them then to touch Him ; for He had ascended to His Father, and had received power."-Early Writings, pp. 187, 188.
 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave:  If you are wanting to generate a good laugh, you have made a point.  you have clearly illustrated how common language can be misunderstood.

I just cannot believe that you are making a serious comment.  Perhaps you are suggesting that Christianity in general should, in order to be accurate, talk about a third comming.

Anyway, SDAs consider the 1st Advent to begin at the birth of Christ and to end When Christ return to God as mentioned in the first chapter of Acts.

 

Anyway, thanks for pulling our leg a bit.

[Gustave]

I had understood that after Jesus' Resurrection He move around (on earth) for 40 days and then ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father. 

"In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach   until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen.  After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God." Acts 1

 

Verse 9:  After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.  “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.

My understanding was that upon the Resurrection Jesus was appearing to many people and doing things on earth and the reason He told Mary not to hold onto to Him was because He was on a timeline of sorts and had things to do - i.e. don't hold on to me because I have things to do. 

Saying that Jesus didn't want Mary to grasp Him was because He might not be worthy of worship and wasn't sure His sacrifice was accepted by the Father and therefore needed to immediately go to heaven to get it straight from the lips of the Father and then come back is a difficult concept for me to grasp given Jesus said the Old Testament Law and Prophets said all these things (including His victory) absolutely would happen because they had to happen. It was Ellen White's comment about hearing from the lips of the Father that His crucifixion event had been accepted really threw me for a loop. I guess no one else thought anything odd about that. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Gustave:

I have never heard a SDA suggest that the reason for Mary not to touch him was because He might not be worthy of worship, or that He was uncertain as to whether or not His sacrifice had been accepted by the Father.

I will not suggest that there is a clear Biblical picture as to why Christ may have wanted to return to the Father at that time.  All is probably speculative and your opinion is as likely to be correct is my opinion on that issue. 

In any case, in my thinking the 1st Advent was completed in those few days prior to the report in Acts 1, as Christ guided in the beginning of the organization and functioning of the Christian church.

From this perspective, I see a 1sst advent that has occurred in the past, and a 2nd Advent that will occur in the future.