A Biblical view on War.

[gina i]

Hi All, I'm not sure wether to put this here or in Townhall. Moderators, feel free to move it where you see fit.

Since it seems that no one will answer my question about What Would Jesus Do?.. on the topic of war.. I'm starting my own topic.

Please feel free to give me biblical references on how killing innocent people is okay. I know this is a hot topic and not many people want to talk about it - but I do. Because no one can give me an answer or will not answer when I ask WWJD?

I guess what I'm looking for is biblical references to wars, why there were wars & how wars today are okay/not okay, why they're happening, etc. I'm a Pacifist & am not afraid to admit it. It just surprises me that a lot of Christians aren't pacifist.

[Tom Wetmore]

Well gina, I think we have to start with Jesus' unequivocal and unqualified command, "Love your enemies." Loving your enemies strongly implies not killing them. The generally accepted methods of war tend to rather forcefully run counter to that idea.

I increasingly feel very passionate about this topic. I think it is a real piece of the gospel that Jesus preached and lived and died for. That we still remain here in this mess 2000 years after they were spoken strongly suggests that we haven’t gotten the message and spread it to the world as was His parting commission. It amazes me at the all too common dull reaction of denial by Christians to Jesus’ outrageous confrontation of the laws of revenge and retribution (misperceived as justice). We have for too long encased them in some shrine of sanctimonious heavenly idealism disconnected from the real world we live in. But in the time and place when Jesus spoke those words they were incredibly shocking. They were in a real gritty world, a violent and hate filled context! They are robbed of their power and impact if we do not proclaim them and direct them at the context of our terrorism filled world today. I cannot candy-coat the impact of the unequivocally radical peacemaking words of Jesus, nor explain them away. "Love your enemies." "Do not resist an evil person." "Blessed are the peacemakers."

Picture the scene of a tight knot of people surrounding this rumored Messiah, waiting for him to hand out the secret plans of how he was going to establish his kingdom. And within sight, no doubt, were Roman soldiers carefully watching, if not listening for any sign of insurrection or trouble precisely because he was a rumored Messiah - yet another threat to their military orders to subdue any revolt. Every Jew believed that the Messiah would establish an earthly kingdom which would require the violent overthrow of those oppressive Romans. It was no secret that several of his close disciples were Zealots, a radical Jewish group which advocated just that. And he used kingdom language. But what are these words out of his mouth but over the top radical peacemaking! The Jews were no less scandalized by the idea of loving their enemies, unclean gentile Romans with a sword at the ready, than we are today of sitting down for supper with a radical Muslim jihadist bent on our annihilation. But that is exactly what he meant. I can barely get my mind around it because also resounding in my head is the restatement of this principle of Jesus as written by Dorothy Day, “We love God only as much as the person we love the least.” To that one, unto the least of these, the lowest of the low… if I wish them dead, I wish for the death of Jesus.

We need to be shocked out of our torpidity.

Tom

[Dr. Shane]

I think we have to start with an understanding of God.

"For I am the Lord, I change not" Malachi 3:6

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." Hebrews 13:8

We know God sent the armies of Israel into war to kill women and children and even the animals of their enemies. And we know God doesn't change - although circumstances do.

We also know that God commanded Abraham, the father of faith, to go to war.

War is a tragic result of sin. As long as there is sin, there will be wars. It is a sad part of life.

Jesus' teachings on loving one's enemies was not a contradiction of the His instructions to ancient Isreal. If they were, that would mean He changes and thus cannot be trusted. The difference was in the circumstances.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gina,

To start I have to say that we are all different parts of Christ's body and we all have different offices. So we will have different views on things. Some should not be different and some should be.

I say that to say this, I think you would better understand the reasons for wars and desruction if you understood God's purposes in commanding them (With His people in the OT)and permitting them to happen, as we have them today.

Then there are those of which Satan is the instigator.

Here are some verses to help us see the purposes of God.

Ecc 3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; Ecc 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Let's look at these verses and use Israel to explain them. did you know that almost all of the wars in the OT were not started by Israel? In a lot of the wars God used them to execute judgement on different nations which were past the point of being saved because of their wickedness and what they would have done had they been permitted to live. Children were executed as well, why? what did they do? It's not so much what they did but rather what they would do in the future. God can see the future and therefore He commanded them to be destroyed.

Aninmals too were destroyed, again why? because some of these nations were into having sex with these aninals and they were defiled and probably carried some diseases that would have been spread to other animals.

You have to trust that God did things for a good reason, because as Shane pointed out in the scripture, He is the same today yesterday and forever.

Let's look at the time when Elisha was laughed at by kids and then two bears came out of the woods and killed these kids. Why would God permit such a thing?

Read from PK

Quote:

Elisha was a man of mild and kindly spirit; but that he could also be stern is shown by his course when, on the way to Bethel, he was mocked by ungodly youth who had come out of the city. These youth had heard of Elijah's ascension, and they made this solemn event the subject of their jeers, saying to Elisha, "Go up, thou bald head; go up,

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thou bald head." At the sound of their mocking words the prophet turned back, and under the inspiration of the Almighty he pronounced a curse upon them. The awful judgment that followed was of God. "There came forth two she-bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two" of them. 2 Kings 2:23, 24.

Had Elisha allowed the mockery to pass unnoticed, he would have continued to be ridiculed and reviled by the rabble, and his mission to instruct and save in a time of grave national peril might have been defeated. This one instance of terrible severity was sufficient to command respect throughout his life. For fifty years he went in and out of the gate of Bethel, and to and fro in the land, from city to city, passing through crowds of idle, rude, dissolute youth; but none mocked him or made light of his qualifications as the prophet of the Most High.

Even kindness should have its limits. Authority must be maintained by a firm severity, or it will be received by many with mockery and contempt. The so-called tenderness, the coaxing and indulgence, used toward youth by parents and guardians, is one of the worst evils which can come upon them. In every family, firmness, decision, positive requirements, are essential.

Getting long I'll cut it short

Norman

[there buster]

Here's one answer by C.S. Lewis, the great Christian apologist of the 20th century.

Quote:

If not the greatest evil, yet war is a great evil. Therefore, we should all like to remove it if we can. But every war leads to another war. The removal of war must therefore be attempted. We must increase by propaganda the number of Pacifists in each nation until it becomes great enough to deter that nation from going to war. This seems to me wild work. Only liberal societies tolerate Pacifists. In the liberal society, the number of Pacifists will either be large enough to cripple the state as a belligerent, or not. If not, you have done nothing. If it is large enough, then you have handed over the state which does tolerate Pacifists to its totalitarian neighbour who does not. Pacifism of this kind is taking the straight road to a world in which there will be no Pacifists.

~C.S. Lewis, "Why I Am Not a Pacifist", The Weight of Glory (1949)

There's much, much more.

[John317]

Hi All, I'm not sure wether to put this here or in Townhall. Moderators, feel free to move it where you see fit.

Since it seems that no one will answer my question about What Would Jesus Do?.. on the topic of war.. I'm starting my own topic.

Please feel free to give me biblical references on how killing innocent people is okay. I know this is a hot topic and not many people want to talk about it - but I do. Because no one can give me an answer or will not answer when I ask WWJD?

I guess what I'm looking for is biblical references to wars, why there were wars & how wars today are okay/not okay, why they're happening, etc. I'm a Pacifist & am not afraid to admit it. It just surprises me that a lot of Christians aren't pacifist.

I've given years of thought to this subject and will do the best I can to give you a straight answer.

But first let me begin with a few personal notes about some of my experiences related to these ideas.

As a non-combatant during Vietnam, who refused to train with or carry a weapon, I sometimes made people in the service angry with me because I was not afraid to express my anti-war views. I received a court-martial and was sentenced to 3 months at hard labor in the Ft. Bliss military stockade because of my anti-military stance. On one other occasion, I was waiting along with an airborne unit to be airlifted to Jordan where some Americans had been kidnapped and were being held at a large hotel there. My fellow soldiers were all talking about "kicking butt" and "smoking their asses." But when I started suggesting that we shouldn't do that, I was quickly replaced by a very "gung-ho," i.e. pro-army, buddy of mine. To put it mildly, my name was mud in the Lt. Col's book after that and it became necessary for me to be transferred to a different unit as a result of that and other, similar incidents.

Later, following my honorable discharge, I was active as a student organizer in massive anti-war demonstrations which eventually helped end American participation in the Vietnam war and bring the troops home.

Your question about what would Jesus do about war is not as simple, however, as you might suppose. It is like the subject of the death-penalty in that way. We wish there were simple answers but there are, unfortunately, none.

What complicates it is the fact that there are different circumstances and different elements you have to deal with. But it should be said right from the get-go that God never is happy about taking any life, ever. In other words, if it was up to God alone, it would never happen. But there are others involved, and that is Satan and fallen humans.

Let me address the different elements: Christ's disciples and the state.

As Christ's disciples, we are clearly to obey Christ's law of love, as given in the Sermon on the Mount, Matt. 5-8. There is just no way Christ's disciples are to take human life. (At this point, I don't want to get into the issue of self-defense or defending one's family against attack. I believe that is in a somewhat different catagory.)

As for the state, it has an altogether different responsibility, and is not tied to the same standards as a disciple of Christ. We find that in Scripture in Jesus words, "Give to Caesar what is his and to God what is His." Also, in Romans 13:1-7; Titus 3:1; 1 Peter 2:13; and John 19:11. The state's responsibility is to defend its citizens against attack, both foreign and domestic, and also to punish law-breakers. It would be foolhardy for anyone to think that the state could possibly fulfill these responsibilites without in the process taking human lives. To take an example, what would have happened on December 8, 1941 if the US had not decided to defend itself against the Japanese attack? Obviously, to me at least, the US government had a responsibility to defend the American people at that point. That was totally separate from the issue of what Christ's disciples were to do. I personally am convinced that Christians, such as Desmond Doss, did the right thing by becoming a non-combatants.

I don't believe that SDA are ever right in taking up arms and killing foreign troops in an opposing army, because for one thing that means they could be killing other SDA in addition to other Christians. I know that my view differs from the official view of the SDA Church, but I agree with the views of the SDA Reform Movement on this question, even though I am not a member of that movement.

(It was, by the way, over this very issue that the SDA Reform Movement had its start in 1914, when the SDA leadership made some big mistakes in their instructions to SDAs in Europe to fight in their country's military. Later, during WW2, many SDAs fought in Hitler's army while many others were executed and became martyrs for their faith rather than join Stalin or Hitler's war machines. The sad and disgraceful thing is that many of those who refused to fight in the military of various European nations were shamefully disfellowshipped from the SDA Church, one of the darkest periods, I believe, in the history of our beloved church.)

[gina i]

I appreciate everyone's views & contributions very much.

John317, I always admire your posts & thank you for sharing your experiences.

[olger]

Tom said: "Well gina, I think we have to start with Jesus' unequivocal and unqualified command, "Love your enemies." Loving your enemies strongly implies not killing them. The generally accepted methods of war tend to rather forcefully run counter to that idea."

Olger said "Amen."

[Gerr]

Just tagging on.

When I joined the U.S. Navy, I had stopped going to church, so I had no qualms about combat. But somewhere along the way, under the conviction of the Spirit, I saw the folly of my direction & started going back to church. I followed the church line and asked for non-combatant status & transfer to the medical corps. My request was granted without much hassle & became a medic.

Since then I have done a little re-thinking about this subject and am not sure I can defend non-combatancy from the Biblical standpoint. Reading the OT is like reading a war history book. God's people did wage war, but as someone pointed out, these were mostly defensive in nature. While we are no longer under a theocracy, the state has also a duty to protect its citizens. At this point in my thinking, I would have no problem taking up arms to protect my family & country if we were invaded. The problem comes when we go to war in another country. The question of a "just war" is unequivocal to me if we were to be invaded, but becomes murky when we are the one who start a war, or when we go in and start meddling in another's war or civil war. When one is in the military, one cannot choose when & when not to fight without a lot of trouble.

Gerry