Problems In The White Community

[John317]

Bravis ... Regarding what you said :

"I think one reason that celebrating 'whiteness' does have a stigma attached to it is the very real history of white supremacist movements"

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I would propose that celebrating "Blackness" has a black supremacist movement stigma. And in fact many. An early one was Malcom X.

The Black Muslims of the 50s and 60s were certainly black supremacists. They taught that all whites were devils and that blacks were superior. Malcolm X was murdered by Black Muslims because he eventually rejected that black supremecist philosophy after he came back from a trip to Africa where he found himself worshipping side by side with white people. The Black Panthers of the 60s also tended to be black supremecist although not as extreme as the Black Muslims. One of its co-founders, Eldridge Cleaver, wrote Soul On Ice to explain his views about race. In that book he talked about raping white women as a way of taking revenge on whites for oppressing blacks. He later repented of those views and became a Christian of sorts and a spokesman for the Heritage Foundation.

[Kountzer]

The Black Muslims of the 50s and 60s were certainly black supremacists. They taught that all whites were devils and that blacks were superior. Malcolm X was murdered by Black Muslims because he eventually rejected that black supremecist philosophy after he came back from a trip to Africa where he found himself worshipping side by side with white people. The Black Panthers of the 60s also tended to be black supremecist although not as extreme as the Black Muslims. One of its co-founders, Eldridge Cleaver, wrote Soul On Ice to explain his views about race. In that book he talked about raping white women as a way of taking revenge on whites for oppressing blacks. He later repented of those views and became a Christian of sorts and a spokesman for the Heritage Foundation.

The black muslims, or the nation of islam, never owned slaves, they don't have a 400 or 500 year history of owning slaves, or of taking millions of people out of there homeland and cutting them off from their history and culture. As for

Eldredge Cleaver, it's a waste of time discussing him. He was a fraud,...i.e. just bumping his gums.

DB

[Dr. Shane]

Are we still talking about problems in the white community? I don't know any white people that own slaves.

[Kountzer]

Are we still talking about problems in the white community? I don't know any white people that own slaves.

Look in any credible history book.

[Dr. Shane]

I have several in my library but every white guy in there that owned a slave was dead long before I was ever born. I don't see owning slaves as a problem in the white community.

Is that white denial, Bravus? I just can't see what whites could do about a problem that doesn't exist anymore?

Don't get me wrong... I would free my slaves if I had them. I would even favor legislation controling the morality of others by making slavery illegal - - - that is,,, if it were legal.

[Amelia]

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The black muslims, or the nation of islam, never owned slaves, they don't have a 400 or 500 year history of owning slaves, or of taking millions of people out of there homeland and cutting them off from their history and culture.

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Are we still talking about problems in the white community? I don't know any white people that own slaves.

Shane, it's called "rightous indignation".

Definition. "Anger: Violent, vindictive passion or emotion aroused by injury or insult, real or imagined, and directed against the cause thereof; sudden and strong displeasure; wrath; ire." "Indignation: The state of being indignant; a feeling involving anger mingled with contempt or disgust, aroused by injustice, meanness," etc. (Standard Dictionary).

[Naomi]

I have several in my library but every white guy in there that owned a slave was dead long before I was ever born. I don't see owning slaves as a problem in the white community.

Is that white denial, Bravus? I just can't see what whites could do about a problem that doesn't exist anymore?

Don't get me wrong... I would free my slaves if I had them. I would even favor legislation controling the morality of others by making slavery illegal - - - that is,,, if it were legal.

Well said Shane! If every nationality whose ancestors were used and abused continued to discuss, exhibit hostility, and expect compensation our world would be an even bigger mess than it is today.

[Kountzer]

Originally Posted By: Shane

I have several in my library but every white guy in there that owned a slave was dead long before I was ever born. I don't see owning slaves as a problem in the white community.

Is that white denial, Bravus? I just can't see what whites could do about a problem that doesn't exist anymore?

Don't get me wrong... I would free my slaves if I had them. I would even favor legislation controling the morality of others by making slavery illegal - - - that is,,, if it were legal.

Well said Shane! If every nationality whose ancestors were used and abused continued to discuss, exhibit hostility, and expect compensation our world would be an even bigger mess than it is today.

I replied to certain comments about so called supremacy being practiced, or preached. by black muslims, Malcol X, etc. Those comments don't have anything to do with problems in the 'white' community either.

[Kountzer]

If every nationality whose ancestors were used and abused continued to discuss, exhibit hostility, and expect compensation our world would be an even bigger mess than it is today.

I don't need any compensation from you. I got a God taking care of me. Take your compensation, reparations, etc. aand shove it where the sun don't shine.

[Bravus]

I'd say the problem of slavery is no longer a problem in the white community, but that its consequences continue to play themselves out. I'm not talking about anything like reparations here, but quite specifically about the fact that it's not always easy for African-Americans to identify with one particular country or ethnicity, since that information was lost due to slavery. That in turn means that they may identify as proudly black, and that that shouldn't be a problem. (And to those who say it's just about skin colour, I'd say in that instance 'black' is just shorthand for African-American.)

See, the other argument that comes out - and has come out here - is 'why all the 'hyphen-Americans', why can't they just be Americans?' In the case of Asian-Americans and Italian-Americans and so on, people usually add 'they chose to come here, so they should assimilate'. But African-Americans in many cases did *not* choose to come there.

So while continuing to be bitter about slavery is a problem, there are real, practical, on-going consequences now: and proclaiming loudly about how African-Americans should just get over it, and about how they should be... that's a problem of the white community.

[Dr. Shane]

Remember we were discussing problems in the black community in Lazarus' thread "CNN's 'Racism in America' surprised me." This thread was to take the heat or the focus off the black community and place it on the white community.

I dearly love the black people and consider those here in America to be as much American as the American Indians that got here somehow after Babel. I don't have a problem with them or their culture,,, well, I do have a problem with lard in cornbread but outside of that I love their culture.

Having been educated in a northern university, the white people I have known have placed high value on cultural diversity. Now there are some of the uneducated types that don't understand the importance of diversity but for the most part, educated white Americans don't have a problem understanding and appreciating cultural diversity.

From Minnesota I moved to Southern Texas where I find myself in the Latino culture. So now I am somewhat out of the white culture and do not have a real feeling of the pulse of it other than what I see, read and hear through the media.

[lazarus]

Well said Shane! If every nationality whose ancestors were used and abused continued to discuss, exhibit hostility, and expect compensation our world would be an even bigger mess than it is today.

I think you have a distorted view of how people react and always react when they are wronged. I think part of the problem here and in this country is that many whites want to say "get over it". Here's a pertinent example. I guess this guy is speaking for you!

Proposed slavery apology ignites controversy

http://www.cavalierdaily.com/CVArticle.asp?ID=28875&pid=1526

Del. Frank Hargrove comes under fire for comments in opposition to a resolution for a state-issued apology for slaveryion to a resolution for a state-issued apology for slavery

Jacqueline Minneman, Cavalier Daily Associate Editor

Del. Frank Hargrove, R-Hanover, is facing criticism for his comments opposing the adoption of a resolution that would apologize to descendants of slaves on behalf of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

In an interview with the Charlottesville Daily Progress about the resolution Hargrove said black citizens should "get over" slavery.

According to Hargrove's legislative aide Buddy Fowler, however, the delegate's words have been misunderstood.

"He is not a racist," Fowler said. "His thoughts are that the good people of Hanover County are not really concerned with issues that occurred hundreds of years ago."

Dean of African-American Affairs Maurice Apprey, however, said the effects of slavery continue to influence blacks today.

"Families were sold; people were disconnected," Apprey said. "The disintegration of the African-American family will not be repaired sufficiently in my lifetime," adding that the Office of African-American Affairs will not take a position on the resolution or Hargrove's comments......

There was no apology back then, there seems to be no desire for apology now. I wonder why? Could it be that many whites don't feel that slavery was so bad. Thats the flavour I get from some on this forum. At the very least I find an approach that tries to minimise the reality and the impact of slavery.

Whites were shoved kicking and screaming into bringing equality. Some of those some people are still alive and their kids are in positions of power. Racism is alive and well.

I have to be vigiliant for my children, my church, my community. I will discuss it. I will still get angry. I will forgive but just like the Jewish community we will never forget!

As for compensation. Have you ever heard of 40 acres and a mule? A promised that was broken. There was an agreement to give reparations.

[lazarus]

Remember we were discussing problems in the black community in Lazarus' thread "CNN's 'Racism in America' surprised me." This thread was to take the heat or the focus off the black community and place it on the white community.

I didn't know thats what the thread was for! Folks can put the "heat on" the black community as much as they like. I think we're used to it.

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Now there are some of the uneducated types that don't understand the importance of diversity but for the most part, educated white Americans don't have a problem understanding and appreciating cultural diversity.

I really have had more an issue with some "educated" whites. They won't call you a name but have a deep seated racism that is so much a part of their psychology. They have a hard time discussing the issue without blaming black people and other minorities for their racism. Its implicit in their arguments. We've seen it here.

[lazarus]

I'd say the problem of slavery is no longer a problem in the white community, but that its consequences continue to play themselves out. I'm not talking about anything like reparations here, but quite specifically about the fact that it's not always easy for African-Americans to identify with one particular country or ethnicity, since that information was lost due to slavery. That in turn means that they may identify as proudly black, and that that shouldn't be a problem. (And to those who say it's just about skin colour, I'd say in that instance 'black' is just shorthand for African-American.)

Now here's a brother who "kinda" gets it. (the "kinda" is a friendly qualifyer) We didn't land on Plymoth rock, it landed on us as Malcolm X said. There are 24 million in the US whose names were taken from them, their language, their culture, their dignity as a people. This has/is having a profound psychologial and social effect. Its bigger than HIP-HOP as Dead Prez would say!

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See, the other argument that comes out - and has come out here - is 'why all the 'hyphen-Americans', why can't they just be Americans?' In the case of Asian-Americans and Italian-Americans and so on, people usually add 'they chose to come here, so they should assimilate'. But African-Americans in many cases did *not* choose to come there.

When folks talk about assimulation they are really wanting people to be come "white' in their speech, dress, customs and culture. When someones does not "assumulate" its seen as a rejection of the "white" culture and therefore a threat.

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So while continuing to be bitter about slavery is a problem, there are real, practical, on-going consequences now: and proclaiming loudly about how African-Americans should just get over it, and about how they should be... that's a problem of the white community.

I think I'm gonna drop the "kinda"!

[Naomi]

Originally Posted By: Naomi

If every nationality whose ancestors were used and abused continued to discuss, exhibit hostility, and expect compensation our world would be an even bigger mess than it is today.

I don't need any compensation from you. I got a God taking care of me. Take your compensation, reparations, etc. aand shove it where the sun don't shine.

Gee, thanks!

And, exactly where in my statement did I specifically mention compensation for you? There are other nationalities who ask for compensation!

This is the heart of the problem ... reducing everything to a me level.

[Naomi]

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Racism is alive and well.

Now that I can agree with!

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I have to be vigiliant for my children, my church, my community. I will discuss it. I will still get angry. I will forgive but just like the Jewish community we will never forget! [/quote']

I can tell you that while the Jewish community/people remember, and hold their heritage in high esteem. OTOH, even you must admit that the Jews deal with their pain differently.

Moreover, I still maintain that the Blacks and Jews are not the only people whose families and communities have been torn apart. Nor, are they the only people who have suffered loss of life, country, etc. due to unfair political and social circumstances. So just shoot me!

To dwell on the past, to be angry at any person or race, is unhealthy for the person/race that holds the anger and hostility.

My question; what does it benefit a person, group of people, or race to constantly dwell on the unjust actions of the past?

Another question: :-) Don’t despair; I don’t even expect you to honestly answer this on public forum. If when acting in your position as a pastor, a white person came to you with a serious problem, could you give "whitie" the same compassionate pastoral counsel as you would a black person?

[Woody]

Regarding : " They have a hard time discussing the issue without blaming black people and other minorities for their racism. Its implicit in their arguments. We've seen it here."

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I'll take the bait ...

I am willing to say that most of the so called "racism" is the "fault" of the black people because it is just in their heads and not in reality.

Self fulfilled prophecy.

[lazarus]

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=Naomi,

Well lazarus, perhaps you should continue to guess. While we have had this discussion many times over the years, your statement indicates that you still do not have a clue as to who I am, or where I am coming from.

I can only glean "where you are coming from" by what you say. I say "i guess" because I'm guessing. I perhaps only know about 5% about what there is to know about you, if that.

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That's ok and I wish you nothing but the best in your quest to continue to magnify an issue that must be let go ... for the black's well being, as much as for anyone else.

I'm not sure what must be let go because you agree with me that racism is alive and well. The scientist and others would have say that magnifcation is a good thing. Sometimes magnifying something can let you see what really going on.

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I have to be vigiliant for my children, my church, my community. I will discuss it. I will still get angry. I will forgive but just like the Jewish community we will never forget!

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OTOH, even you must admit that the Jews deal with their pain differently.

"Even you" is an interesting phrase. I'm interested to know what that means. I'm not mad, just want to know. How do Jews deal with their pain differently?

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Moreover, I still maintain that the Blacks and Jews are not the only people whose families and communities have been torn apart. Nor, are they the only people who have suffered loss of life, country, etc. due to unfair political and social circumstances.

I understand that and agree with that All the crazy stuff that is happening in our world today is evidence of that.

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So just shoot me!

I'm not sure what that means. Honest.

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Another question: :-) Don’t despair; I don’t even expect you to honestly answer this on public forum.

uhhh, why ask it then...I guess its rhetorical. Don't despair, again what do you mean????

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If when acting in your position as a pastor, a white person came to you with a serious problem, could you give "whitie" the same compassionate pastoral counsel as you would a black person?

Whitie??? LOL

Of course I would say that I do. I don't hate white people at all. When I talk to a white person in hospital its the same feeling of compassion that I have a black person. I couldn't efffectively pastor otherwise.

One of my first churches was a white church. I had a generally good experience. I now pastor in a white conference. I minister to white families/persons in crisis regularly.

I guess from my postings and my avitar you're thinking that as I anoint a white member dying of cancer I'm secretly saying "die whitey die"! Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Woody]

Hummm ... Laz says he is not a racist. I for one think that we should take him at his word and not hold racism against him ... even though many of us Whites feel we have been badly treated.

I am willing to forgive the Blacks for all that they have done to me in the name of Affirmation Action. Perhaps they can forgive ME for my long Dead relatives who were slave owners.

Imagine ... Blacks and Whites agreeing to be equal. I know that the Whites are willing to declare this but the Blacks still want Affirmation Discrimination Against Whites. (ADAW)

[lazarus]

Hummm ... Laz says he is not a racist. I for one think that we should take him at his word and not hold racism against him ... even though many of us Whites feel we have been badly treated.

I don't remember saying I'm not a racist. I could be mistaken. Redwood are you saying that many whites feel they have been badly treated by me on this forum? Hmmmm

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I am willing to forgive the Blacks for all that they have done to me in the name of Affirmation Action. .

LOL, you're cool redwood. Here's a website that may appeciate your posts as much as I do.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/

peace.

[Woody]

( I don't remember saying I'm not a racist. )

"I don't hate white people at all." In the above post by Laz.

By the way Laz ... When I fill out forms that ask for race.... I put down Black as my race. I would say that you really don't know me and don't know who I am. What race do you claim when you fill out forms?

[Taylor]

Lazarus I have some questions for you.

1. It has seemed to me, from your posts, that you think that all whites need to continually appologize or somehow make ammends for the geunine injustices done to blacks. (I completely agree that injustices have been done by the way! It absolutely amazes me, saddens me and maddens me to see ANY prejudice EVER to ANYONE!) But my question is, do you think we are ALL prejudice? If so, then by default we could say that all blacks are prejudice towards whites and I don't think for a second that that is true.

2. Do you think that it is possible for whites to genuinly love blacks and blacks to genuinly love whites without being suspicious of the other person, without looking down their noses at them, being able to "get on" with the future instead of being stuck in either gripes against affirmative action or slavery?

3. How do we:

a. love irregardless of color and yet affirm color differences?

b. recognize injustices in the past and do our best to never treat each other with prejudice according to the past and somehow move on into a new future?

c. Can we as individuals move on and genuinely love, appreciate, uphold, and treasure each other EVEN if society NEVER catches up? Can we do this in our churches, with coworkers, employees etc?

I am genuinly interested in your response. I happen to be taking an american history class which focuses on 1865 to the present and I am once again apalled at the past history of how blacks were treated. But my questions deal with the now. None of us lived in those days. We aren't responsible for how our ancestors which we never knew reacted. AND we are still living with the consequences of what our ancestors did just like we are still dealing with the results of Eve's sin. There are wrongs that still need to be made right, absolutely. We ARE responsible for how WE act, how we raise our children, and how we treat each others. So my question has to do with today.....and what can we do to help rectify what is still wrong in our society.

[Woody]

Thank you Taylor ... I appreciate the question you have posed. And I appreciate the manner in which you have worded it.

I also would like to know the answers to your questions.

If we abstain from name calling long enough ... perhaps we can come up with some constructive answers.

[lazarus]

quote=Redwood]( I don't remember saying I'm not a racist. )

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"I don't hate white people at all." In the above post by Laz.

racism isn't really about hate, its about superiority. Those slavemasters who had sex with slaves probably didn't hate them but I think they certainly felt superiority. You can like someone and still have racist feelings toward them.

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By the way Laz ... When I fill out forms that ask for race.... I put down Black as my race. I would say that you really don't know me and don't know who I am. What race do you claim when you fill out forms?

This gets better Redwood. I didn't know who were "black like me". As a member of the human race.......I......on the other hand Redwood, take a guess.

[lazarus]

hey Redwood,

I really wasn't kidding or name calling about the Stormfront.org post. Some of what you say is not to far from the perspective of the people over there. They are not name calling bigots. They are intelligent people who have views which are similar to those you express