Robert Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 27 minutes ago, Robert said: Now think about it....As the son of man His greatest temptation was on the cross. He was tempted, in His humanity, to use His Divinity (against His Father's will) and come down off the cross and save Himself. What tempted Him? Our love of self.... Can you image the temptation? First of all, remember Christ wasn't guilty. He was framed! He didn't do anything wrong, yet they condemned Him. Now, put yourself in His shoes: You have the ability to grab onto something that is all powerful. What you would do? Well, in my humanity (because I love myself), the mob wouldn't have arrested me in the first place because I was innocent. I would have stopped them right there in the garden. We call that self-defense. But let's say they did get me on a cross. What then? I would have blinked them out of existence, come down off the cross and saved myself. To hell with the human race, they didn't love me anyway. That's what I would have done, given the power. But then again I'm not Jesus...aren't you glad. Christ, as the son of man, was willing to say goodbye to life forever (not just for 3 days) because His Father had abandoned Him. To Christ that meant no resurrection. So when Christ died, from His point of view, it was for eternity. Hence He tasted the 2nd death for all men. Why did He do it? So his enemies, the human race, could have heaven in His place. Folks, that's agape love.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GayatfootofCross Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Robert said: Why did He do it? So his enemies, the human race, could have heaven in His place. Folks, that's agape love.... amen! Robert! That agape love that is scene on the Cross is the springboard of how to lense the worst horrors that Paul sums up as shadows (with no substance) seen in the Old Testament. God can only lead the Israelites as far as they are willing to go. God can only lead the Church as far as they can go. God can only lead us as far as we can go. The OT is not ( though gloriously glimpsed from time to time ) the template of how we to see God. JESUS ON THE CROSS IS ! The SCIENCE AND SONG ..not the law nor the punishments nor the Patriarchs Prophets or Kings once you figure out that! you figure out everything #the Key of Knowledge Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted January 4, 2016 Moderators Share Posted January 4, 2016 Robert, part of the problem is that you are interpreting the Ellen White quotes by how we would read into these after we have stupidly split the truth after the book Questions on Doctrine. That is NOT how it would have been understood before we did that stupid mistake. There are many quotes that a superficial reading and reading post QOD that can make it sound like she completely contradicts the quotes that you have shared. I'm not sure just when but I'll try to find some of them for you. We spent quite a bit of time in the Spirit of Prophecy class at Atlantic Union College looking at both groups of quotes. I was in college during the Ford/Rea crisis and the Fordites were using a bunch of quotes from Mrs. White to prove that Jesus had the nature of Adam before the fall. And some who were influenced by Rea were using both quotes to show that Mrs. White was undependable and that she had a "wax nose" that you could bend either direction depending on which quotes you use. However the professor (and there were also some articles that came from our other schools bringing up the same information) talked about what the traditional view was of the nature of Jesus. Since many (not all) of our pioneers did not believe in the trinity, there was not much discussion on the nature of Jesus. As we switched more from the trinity being an alternative belief by a minority of our members to it becoming more prominent, we thus had to ask the question. Mrs. White found an author (Maybe someone here could confirm or correct me, but I think his last name was Mellville) who gave a beautiful description of the traditional view of the nature of Christ. Mrs. White simply picked out some of his best quotes. The historical context of her quotes were the change of more emphases on the trinity. Reading the book that she was quoting from helps to clarify what she was saying. I wish that when Questions on Doctrine was being discussed and our leaders got this question; I wish they just responded "Many of our pioneers questioned the trinity, but as time went on and we continued to study more of our members have started to accept the trinity and with that the traditional view of the nature of Jesus." show the Ellen White quotes and the books where she got those quotes from. Had they simply done this Elder Andresen would have been happy. Elder Wilkinson would have still questioned the trinity, but we would not have split the truth in half. This could have also decreased the risk of the Ford crisis ever forming. And you and I would not have this discussion that we are having here, and we would both have held on to the traditional view of the nature of Jesus. But sadly because of this mistake and people taking only HALF of what Andresen was saying and taking the Mrs. White quotes that support that half of the doctrine and ignoring the quotes that cover the other half of the doctrine, and people adding all kinds of traditions on to the half truth we end up at each other's throat. And Satan has placed us where if someone was to tell the truth that both the conservatives and liberals would become upset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Well, I see your point, but I really do not need EGW on this issue. The EGW comments that I quoted are in harmony with my understanding of the Apostle Paul's views. This issue on the humanity of Christ is very important because it directly effects the gospel we present. Keep in mind that according to Paul there's only one gospel. See Gal 1:6-9 Kevin H 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted January 4, 2016 Moderators Share Posted January 4, 2016 Exactly Robert! While we may disagree greatly on how to apply the principles, you and I do hold to the same principles. And while there are many who feel that they need to put Jesus completely in the one category for him to be our example, actually these principles can be held with the traditional approach to the nature of Jesus. phkrause 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators debbym Posted January 5, 2016 Administrators Share Posted January 5, 2016 In response to reading and skimming this thread... Jesus was tempted to satisfy hunger by using his divine prerogatives that he had set aside in order to meet us where we are. If he had done that he would have left us behind. Jesus was tempted to deny his Lordship granted at birth and held through humility and surrender to His father's will, and have instant false ownership of all. Jesus was tempted to display his relationship with his Father, through presumption, and to prove his protected status, inadvertently denying that he was indeed the great I AM. Jesus maintained a self control stronger than death, deceit, and all the glory of this world. "If you are truly the Son of God"... the enemy came to challenge his identity. If he could have shaken or diverted Christ from his identity, his true position, His relationship to to heaven... he hoped he would obtain some shade of recognition or allegiance to his perverse code which was be God in this world. When Christ is meeting the enemy in our lives... these battles are in some form repeated. We are tempted to deny God, to not let Christ inherently be Lord of our hearts, of everything, and everyone. Christ has all authority over the evil one, over all sin, and all righteousness. He took captivity captive, and intercedes for all. By Him all things consist. Christ is indeed more than our hope, more than our redeemer, He is inexhaustible in all that he is. We are more than conquerors through Him that loved us. GayatfootofCross, Gail and Kevin H 3 Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 8 hours ago, debbym said: Jesus was tempted to satisfy hunger by using his divine prerogatives that he had set aside in order to meet us where we are. If he had done that he would have left us behind. True....So Christ as a man, because He had assumed our fallen humanity, was tempted to go against His Father's own will and use the power of His Divinity. What's the root of the temptation? The love of self....So Christ was tempted by our bent-to-self . Our bent (iniquity) comes from within. Christ denied self....He said "no" through the power of the Spirit and conquered where we have failed. Kevin H and Gail 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kevin H Posted January 5, 2016 Moderators Share Posted January 5, 2016 Yes, we are getting much closer here to the truth. Jesus had to suffer from as I said his appetites, desires and passions were not naturally under the control of reason. They were also not in the proportions that God had created in Adam, but the disproportions that all the centuries of sin had produced. He could get tired and hungry. What he did not have in him which we do, is selfishness/contempt. the disposition in us to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world/to esteem himself more highly than others. We the best we can do is still marred by selfishness. Jesus was totally unselfish. Satan had to temp him in ways that did not appeal to selfishness. But this did not leave him out of Satan's reach, it only meant that Satan had to adapt his temptations to Jesus' situation. He had to temp Jesus to think that in not denying self he would end up glorifying the father and care for the world around him. While in the past God took the appearance of an angel and person and fire and probably like the beings on other planets, when he became Jesus he actually became man. God had never actually become one of his creatures before. God did not know if he could truly live a life in total harmony with his law of self renouncing love. There was a very real risk of failure. Adam and Eve fell despite all their advantages. Jesus succeeded despite his disadvantages. But we have to realize that while Jesus truly had disadvantages that we are dealing with, he did not have a taint of selfishness. He did not have a taint of thinking he was for himself by making less of the outside world. Did not have the taint of wanting to esteem himself above others. This actually gave Satan an advantage over Jesus that we selfish contemptuous people do not have. By bringing the worst of sin to Jesus he was hoping to repulse Jesus' purity enough to give up. Jesus was therefore tempted in ways that we cannot be tempted. The book Questions on doctrine sadly only emphasized Jesus' divinity. Elder Andresen correctly pointed out that it was only a half message. But we have messed it up by not following Andresen's appeal to grab the whole truth but the liberals take QOD as the whole truth and the conservatives take the missing parts, and added the sinful nature and present this as the whole truth. Both are important pieces of the truth. Gail 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted January 9, 2016 Administrators Share Posted January 9, 2016 Thank you for the clarification, Kevin. It fills in some understanding of the complexity of the matter. Kevin H 1 Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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