bevin Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 The Bush administration is painting the Iranian government as Quote: The officials displayed fragments of some of the weapons involved, claiming that those at the "highest levels" of government in Tehran were involved in arming Iraqi militants. http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2264671.ece Now, apart from the obvious lack of convincing evidence that the Iranian government is involved, there is another issue here... An EFP is not the "sophisticated weapon" that the Bush Administration is labelling it as. They are no more sophisticated than a 6" x 12" bullet. It could be made in anyone's home workshop, using designs that are widely available on the internet. /Bevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted February 13, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2007 Bevin Here's further evidence that they are lying... JAKARTA, Indonesia Feb 13, 2007 (AP)— A top U.S. general said Tuesday there was no evidence the Iranian government was supplying Iraqi insurgents with highly lethal roadside bombs, apparently contradicting claims by other U.S. military and administration officials. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2870944&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312 Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted February 13, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2007 Bevin Here's further evidence that they are lying... JAKARTA, Indonesia Feb 13, 2007 (AP)— A top U.S. general said Tuesday there was no evidence the Iranian government was supplying Iraqi insurgents with highly lethal roadside bombs, apparently contradicting claims by other U.S. military and administration officials. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2870944&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312 Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted February 13, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2007 Bevin Here's further evidence that they are lying... JAKARTA, Indonesia Feb 13, 2007 (AP)— A top U.S. general said Tuesday there was no evidence the Iranian government was supplying Iraqi insurgents with highly lethal roadside bombs, apparently contradicting claims by other U.S. military and administration officials. http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2870944&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312 Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted February 13, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2007 Sorry about the multiple posts. I kept geting and "access denied" message so I tried to post again! Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 "Lying" is an emotionally-charged, inflamatory word that does not belong in a mature, healthy, exchange of ideas. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 13, 2007 Share Posted February 13, 2007 Quote: apparently May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted February 13, 2007 Author Share Posted February 13, 2007 Lying is also something that doesn't belong in a mature, healthy, exchange of ideas. That doesn't stop the Bush Administration from doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 13, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 13, 2007 I would normally agree with you Shane, but what else do we call it when someone is saying something that's not true? And saying it intentionally, knowing it's not true, in order to achieve a particular goal? I'd argue that in that instance trying to use any other term is just applying a euphemism, and 'lying' is a simple descriptive term rather than an inflammatory one. Quite apart from anything else, the Shias who are America's allies in Iraq are also Iran's allies, so if Iran is arming anyone it would be them: they certainly wouldn't be arming their enemies the Sunnis, who are responsible for most of the IED attacks on American troops. This is the drumbeat for a new war, or at least for attacks, that the US cannot afford. We would hope that the press and the people will apply the kind of critical thinking this time that they didn't last time. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 14, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 14, 2007 Anyone remember the slide, a year or so after 9/11, from Osama (3 syllables) bin Laden (3 syllables) to Saddam (2 syllables) Hussein (2 syllables)? I remember it from all sorts of angles, even the little internet cartoons mocking these particular demons. Bet the administration wishes now that Mahmoud (2 syllables) Ahmadinejad's (5 syllables) name was John Smith. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 The only president that you can honestly say was a liar was Clinton. He is a convicted felon who was convicted of lying to a Grand Jury. Bush did not . Lying is just the political mantra of the Democrats to knock down the Republicans. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 14, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 14, 2007 How would you characterise the claim that the Iranians are arming the Iraqis then? How would you characterise the claim that 'Saddam has WMD and we know where they are?' Just because no-one has been able (for political reasons, not legal ones) to convict someone of lying does not mean they have never lied. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Quote: I would normally agree with you Shane, but what else do we call it when someone is saying something that's not true? The mainstream media uses the term 'misleading'. I think that is less inflammatory and more appropriate for a mature and healthy discussion. I don't see a war with Iran happening. If it does I will apologize for being wrong. Bush has less than two years left. So at that time we will see if I am right or not. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Shane Apologize ? And so freely? I will enjoy seeing that. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 Quote: I don't see a war with Iran happening. If it does I will apologize for being wrong. Bush has less than two years left. So at that time we will see if I am right or not. His daddy screwed up Somalia with two months left /Bevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 How would you characterise the claim that the Iranians are arming the Iraqis then? How would you characterise the claim that 'Saddam has WMD and we know where they are?' Just because no-one has been able (for political reasons, not legal ones) to convict someone of lying does not mean they have never lied. To the first claim. It is true. The weapons from Iran have been found and documented. To the second claim. It was proven to be true. Hundreds of WMD with tons of biologicals were found after this statement was made. This has been documented here before. I think it is dangerous to call someone a liar when you don't know all the facts. When someone shares the information they have it may be shown later that the intelligence or interpretation of that intelligence is flawed but that does not mean they lied. As Christians we should be especially careful to throw stones. We should not pretend to know the heart. Honest people can make mistakes. I am not saying that mistakes have been made but I am saying that I do not believe there have been lies and I do not believe as Christians we should make the accusations of the President lying. When a court of law says that a person has lied as was the case of President Clinton ... then I believe we can honestly say he lied as determined by the courts. But, as a Christian I am very careful to make these kinds of judgments of an individual. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Quote: His daddy screwed up Somalia with two months left That is the opinion of the far Left but certainly not a concensus among historians. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted February 14, 2007 Author Share Posted February 14, 2007 Lets see - Somalia has not had a government since Bush senior invaded. It is now in civil war. It has a big piracy problem. You think GB-I did the right thing by backing an unpopular failing regime? /Bevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 14, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 14, 2007 Bravus said: How would you characterise the claim that the Iranians are arming the Iraqis then? Redwood said: To the first claim. It is true. The weapons from Iran have been found and documented. Yep, I apologise, I was not clear enough in what I wrote. Do you think any (captured or stolen) American weapons have been used against Americans in Iraq? An even more narrow question: Have American weapons been found and documented in Iraq? Now, does that mean the Americans, as a nation-state, are arming the militias? Of course not, that's nonsense. So what I should have asked is: How do you characterise the claim (or at least the inference which is clearly being drawn) that Iran, as a nation-state, as a matter of policy, is arming the insurgents in Iraq? Because that would be the only grounds on which an attack on Iran *might* be justifiable. The fact that Iranian weapons make their way into Iraq, given that they share a massive and poorly policed common border, means nothing in terms of that question. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 14, 2007 Moderators Share Posted February 14, 2007 http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2007/02/14/iran/index.html http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2007/02/14/bushiran/index.html Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 America armed the Afghan rebels during Soviet occupation and the USSR knew and still maintained diplomatic relations with the US. The reason was because the USSR did not want to have a direct military confrontation with the US. By the same reasoning the US will not invade Iran. However the US should get them to the diplomatic table and push them to help seal off the Iraqi border and help stabilize Iraq. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Quote: You think GB-I did the right thing by backing an unpopular failing regime? The UN thought it was a good idea. I am not an internationalist and don't think much of the UN. So my personal opinion is that we should not have gotten involved militarily. However, the UN thought it the thing to do. President Bush the elder had said the troops would be home before Clinton took office. Well, war rarely goes as planned. President Clinton could have pulled the troops out as soon as he took office and history tells us they stayed there for another 14 months. So they were there 6 weeks under President Bush the elder and 14 months under President Clinton. BTW: I voted for Ross Perot in 1992. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted February 15, 2007 Author Share Posted February 15, 2007 Actually the UN thought it was a good idea to protect the distribution of food It was GB-I who decided this translated to backing the current failing regime What brain-bubble possibly led to the idea they would be home by Xmas /Bevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 History tells us the UN agreed with President Bush the elder's plan. I can't think of too many things the UN has done well. IMO it should have went the same way the League of Nations did. The US should have never joined. I favor the US getting out of the UN and the UN getting out of the US. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Quote: BTW: I voted for Ross Perot in 1992 I did also ... But I sure don't brag about it. I think that was one of my more stupid decisions. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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