Moderators lazarus Posted March 4, 2007 Moderators Share Posted March 4, 2007 The NY Times published a list of things that a new Democratic administration must do if it is to restore the founding principles of American democracy and it reputaion in the world: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/opinion/04sun1.htmlpagewanted=1&_r=2 There can surely be no argument with the following: Restore Habeas Corpus Stop Illegal Spying Ban Torture, Really Close the C.I.A. Prisons Account for ‘Ghost Prisoners’ Ban Extraordinary Rendition Tighten the Definition of Combatant Ban Tainted Evidence Screen Prisoners Fairly and Effectively Ban Secret Evidence Better Define ‘Classified’ Evidence Respect the Right to Counsel. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted March 4, 2007 Share Posted March 4, 2007 Sounds like a list made by a group of people that don't trust our system of checks and balances. "Restore Habeas Corpus" This is an issue for the courts to deal with. (check and balance) "Stop Illegal Spying" The so-called "illegal" spying was going on with Congressional advisement. (check and balance) "Ban Torture, Really" Congress has spelled out what is allowed and what isn't. (check and balance) Close the C.I.A. Prisons Congress has decided not to hold open testimony about this program. (check and balance) Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted March 9, 2007 Share Posted March 9, 2007 The NY Times published a list of things that a new Democratic administration must do if it is to restore the founding principles of American democracy and it reputaion in the world: There can surely be no argument with the following: Restore Habeas Corpus Stop Illegal Spying Ban Torture, Really Close the C.I.A. Prisons Account for ‘Ghost Prisoners’ Ban Extraordinary Rendition Tighten the Definition of Combatant Ban Tainted Evidence Screen Prisoners Fairly and Effectively Ban Secret Evidence Better Define ‘Classified’ Evidence Respect the Right to Counsel. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dottie Posted March 10, 2007 Share Posted March 10, 2007 As my 6-yr-old says, "Fat Chance!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Koot Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 There can surely be no argument with the following: Restore Habeas Corpus Stop Illegal Spying Ban Torture, Really Close the C.I.A. Prisons Account for ‘Ghost Prisoners’ Ban Extraordinary Rendition Tighten the Definition of Combatant Ban Tainted Evidence Screen Prisoners Fairly and Effectively Ban Secret Evidence Better Define ‘Classified’ Evidence Respect the Right to Counsel. The list is appalling. Has our country come to this? The most cherished individual rights, trashed? I am reminded of the Wilkes case in England. Was it the elder Pitt who spoke to that? I am alarmed at merely seeing such a list. The fact that such things are even an issue, does not bode well for this country. Is there any qualitative difference between some of the stuff that has been going on, and the 'star chamber' courts? What is lurking around the corner? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Nan Posted March 12, 2007 Moderators Share Posted March 12, 2007 Sounds like a list made by a group of people that don't trust our system of checks and balances. "Ban Torture, Really" Congress has spelled out what is allowed and what isn't. (check and balance) Does this apply only in the US and those non-US citizens who need to be further investigated then get 'rendered' to overseas locations where about anything goes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 It is considered torture to expell a non-US citizen and banish him to his lawful country where he would be tortured. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bevin Posted March 12, 2007 Share Posted March 12, 2007 Quote: Congress has spelled out what is allowed and what isn't. (check and balance) Yes, and Bush has stated and signed statements saying that he doesn't have to follow what Congress tells him to do /Bevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted March 14, 2007 Share Posted March 14, 2007 Quote: Yes, and Bush has stated and signed statements saying that he doesn't have to follow what Congress tells him to do This is simply a misrepresentation of the facts. Also known as SPIN. President Bush has indicated he will comply with Congress. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 14, 2007 Moderators Share Posted March 14, 2007 http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/?last_story=/opinion/greenwald/2007/03/13/lying_to_congress/ Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 The author misjudges the President's motives. The President does what he believes is right and refuses to govern by the polls. He is not concerned about his earthly legacy. He is more concerned about answering to God on judgment day. While I may disagree with him on somethings, like wiretaps and torture, I respect him. The author of the article claims Bush does what he does to please his base. Hmmmm... When Bush was governor of Texas a man on death roll became born-again. Many of the high-profile clergy in Texas, that already had the Governor's ear, pleaded with him to stay the execution. The man apologized to the victim's family and even they asked the Governor to stay the execution. If he was interested in pleasing his Christian base, he would have certainly stayed the man's execution. Yet he asked himself if it was right for him to stay the execution just because the prisoner had become a member of the same faith he was. He asked himself if the prisoner would have instead become a Muslim or Budhist, would he be so willing to grant him a stay. Since he could not honestly answer yes, he felt it wrong to give the prisoner preferential treatment because the two both belonged to the same faith. It was a decision very unpopular with his base but one he believed to be right. That is the kind of character that I respect. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted March 15, 2007 Moderators Share Posted March 15, 2007 I think I agree with you and disagree with Glenn about Bush's motives. I don't see what he does as driven by polls and pandering to the base, but as driven by his own personal beliefs and values. Somehow I don't find his conviction in going ahead and killing a man based on his own personal beliefs and values a comforting thought. Particularly when his own personal beliefs and values have also included a pattern of lying to Congress, which invalidates the very checks and balances that you've been saying protect Americans' freedom. When his beliefs and values mean an American citizen (Jose Padilla) is held for years without trial and without benefit of habeus corpus, that means his character is terrifying, not comforting (in my opinion, of course). Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 Part of the system is that the branches of government push the boundaries. In recent history I can recall Presidents Clinton and Reagan both doing so. Congress also pushed boundaries under Speaker Gingrich. The Courts have become very activist over the past few decades which, of course, are pushing their boundaries. However there are checks in place so that each branch can hold the other in balance if it has the will to do so. One of the things most disturbing to me in the Jose Pandilla case isn't that the Justice Department denied him habeus corpus but that the court system allowed them to do it. I know the US justice system is good compared to many other nations, but having been caught up in it myself, I know it needs a lot of improvement. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted March 15, 2007 Share Posted March 15, 2007 The Democrats " Must-Do List" But indeed! Must-Do #1 -- Govern on the principle of 'Doing' for "We the people...", rather than doin' "Agin the Dubya, dink all else" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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