Nicodema Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Quote: The problem isn't abortion....It's "self-love". It's capitalism at it's finest....It's namely about "money" and "vanity"....Listen to the excuses: "I need an education, I'm not ready for this child." "It would interrupt my life." "Having a child will cause me to get ugly stretch marks." "It cost too much money to raise a child....I want my child to have everything and since I am not ready financially I chose to abort." And now in all honesty ... do you consider persons who would make statements similar to those above to be fit to become parents? Would you want to be their child???? Do you think forcing them to become parents is going to either (a) do any good for either the embryo that will become their child, or ( do anything to improve their readiness, attitude, and FITNESS to parent??? Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Ok lets discuss this. 1. In the case of Rape would it be ok in your opinion for a woman to get an abortion? Or do you feel the woman should be forced to go full term with the forced pregnancy? 2. In the case where an abortion would save the mothers life would an abortion be appropriate in your opinion? Or would you favor the fetus over the mother's life? 3. In the case of incest would you be in favor of an abortion? 4. In the case where medical science has discovered the fetus is diseased or deformed would you be in favor an abortion? Or would you force the parents to support a diseased child or a deformed child for the rest of its life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Quote: Would you want to be their child???? Do you think forcing them to become parents is going to either (a) do any good for either the embryo that will become their child, or ( do anything to improve their readiness, attitude, and FITNESS to parent??? Heck no... I'd rather be murdered! Nico--- ever hear about adoption --- now there's a choice! Quote SteveB "Whenever one begins to look at the bible as being subjective and open to “human” interpretation, watch closely for winsome philosophical excuses to follow." ME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Quote: Heck no... I'd rather be murdered! Nico--- ever hear about adoption --- now there's a choice! And force a woman to go through nine months of an unwanted pregnancy. Of course they could always go to Mexico to get an abortion. Even think of that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Quote: As I said before the courts have decided that the choice of the woman gets precedence over the fetus. Right or wrong this is the decision. Peter, I wonder. If the courts were to rule that everybody named Peter needed to be executed, then your position is to except it, right or wrong, right? Quote SteveB "Whenever one begins to look at the bible as being subjective and open to “human” interpretation, watch closely for winsome philosophical excuses to follow." ME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted August 16, 2004 Author Share Posted August 16, 2004 Quote: Quote: Nico--- ever hear about adoption --- now there's a choice! And force a woman to go through nine months of an unwanted pregnancy. Of course they could always go to Mexico to get an abortion. Even think of that? This is why I would prefer to leave this issue to the doctors and the women who carry the child. It is her bodys. But to force women to carry an unwanted pregnacy is to reduce the woman to the level of being a 2nd class citizen. She has no rights to her body and is therefore nothing more than a baby-producing slave. And while someone else said that this issue is on the same level as slavery, in this sense, I would agree. I don't like the idea of abortion, but I definately refuse to violate the freedom of choice. If a person choose to abide by a philosphy of choice, there is the option of not only choosing to allow the child to die thru abortion, but to also allow the child to live, thru adoption or to alter your life for that of the unborn child. It does so without violating the principle of choice. But to be a pro-lifer, is to trample on the ashes of all the martyers who died for religious freedom, to spit upon the men and women who sacrified thier lifes against the tyranny of removing choice in your lifes, it is to sacrifice the concept of responsiblity that was given by God to man...Pro-life oppresses women and subjegates all that they have fought so hard for in raising them from a second class citizeny. You may feel that to abort a child is to murder that child, but you could not arrive at that conclusion without choosing life. To insist that all women become baby-making people and to insist that it become the standard/law of the land, is to trample the very ideals and responsibilities that womanhood entail. When you insist that 'abortion is murder' and 'abortion should be outlawed', consider well what you are implying by that statement. You are saying that mankind has no rights to think for themselves, that a woman has no reproductive rights to her body, and possibly her mind is inferior.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Thank you Gail! By removing those awful photos, you helped make a very important point. Those photos were obviously not just heaps of tissue that had been destroyed, which is the impression a pro choicer will try to give. Those were photos of obviously well formed human beings who had been chopped up, poisoned, sucked apart, and crushed or in other words, BRUITALY MURDERED! Pro abortion folks don't have the stomach to look in the eye what their own views promote. Understandable, I certainly don't have the stomach for it either. Looking at those photos brought tears to my eyes, and even thinking about the horror they represent, puts a lump in my throat. I would guess it does the same for the other side of the issue. How could it not! There is something inside of us that shudders in revulsion and horror at seeing these images, why? I would say my own personal reaction is not at all different from any time I have seen the heaps of bodies in the mass graves in Germany during WWII. Is yours? Why were the images taken down from this thread? Come on folks, stop and consider this for a moment. It is something natural that GOD put there inside of you. A revulsion at things that are abhorrent. (God’s law written on your heart) Try and see past your own desensitization. This is wrong! For a Christian person to argue in favor of this senseless slaughter absolutely blows my mind. I love God, and I thank Jesus for what He has done for me and all of you regardless of what your view is. I want you all to understand, as a human being, I DO NOT hold myself up as better or smarter then any of you who disagree on this subject. I am attempting to speak clear and forthright about an issue I feel extremely burdened to speak out on. Stop and think for a moment. Those in favor of abortion point their fingers at people who "bomb abortion clinics", murder abortionists etc. They call this behavior intolerable and want to see it punished, i.e. legislation making it “illegal”, which it is, and it’s odd, I hear NO ONE saying THIS is going to promote the Sunday law. In my view and many, many others, (in fact, to the majority of human beings in this country) it is no different to intentionally murder innocent and defenseless human beings in or out of the womb. It is simply senseless murder. The blood of these little ones, yes BLOOD, cries out to God for vengeance. There is no avoiding the fact that God WILL meet out consequences for un-confessed senseless acts of violence against any human being! The folks on the pro life issue who take a militant stand must be understood just as the abortionist would like to be understood. They (pro life militants), take literal value on a single innocent human life who is murdered and are willing to face extreme consequences, if in their view, they can save one single baby from being “murdered”. They see images such as I posted and are moved to anger which is unchecked and unbridled. They see themselves at war with an enemy they can not comprehend. Don’t get this wrong, pay very close attention to the following; two wrongs does not make a right, and we can not judge the abortionist bomber any more then we can judge the woman or the abortionist. God is judge and will avenge what needs to be avenged Himself. Vigilante justice is illegal, as it should be, but from the pro-choice view, I wonder why… Shouldn’t it just be “choice”? The reasoning behind the liberal use of the word choice is tortuous and convoluted and is the product of many years of pacifism and acceptance. The most heinous crime, is to commit a crime against a defenseless (born) infant, most of you would agree regardless what your view is on abortion. To murder, sexually assault, or brutalize a helpless infant is taboo for nearly all of society excepting the brutalizer. Nearly all would advocate and implement whatever militant measures necessary to save born infants from any form of brutalization whatsoever where ever possible. Some feel with extreme sincerity and sense of purpose, the same protectiveness for the unborn, defenseless, innocent human being and if they take a violent stand then it is likely they will have to pay for their actions. What pro abortionists are saying is the woman gets to make the same choice as above, with little or absolutely NO moral regard for the "innocent" life being murdered, she is making the "choice" and she will receive total and complete absolution because she is a woman and it is her body. What I find conveniently and curiously missing is how her body is supposed to be the "Holy" Temple of the Living God. To allow someone to reach inside this Temple and brutally murder an innocent child is one of the ultimate perversities a Christian could refuse to stand against! Just because a man says (in place of God), your sins are forgiven, it doesn't make it so. (as an analogy of), just because a christian says abortion should not be legislated and is a matter of choice, doesn't make it right. I realize I don't stand a snoballs chance in the firey furnace to change a mind that is already set. I am not appealing to or answering the other side. In reality, I am using the other side as a spring board to present what I believe to be contrasting biblical truths so that when a silent reader comes along and is somewhat confused over the issue, I hope what I write is clear enough to polarize some towards what I believe with all my heart to be truth! So I would like to thank all of you who are pro abortion for making my job so easy. Quote SteveB "Whenever one begins to look at the bible as being subjective and open to “human” interpretation, watch closely for winsome philosophical excuses to follow." ME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Quote: And now in all honesty ... do you consider persons who would make statements similar to those above to be fit to become parents? Would you want to be their child???? Do you think forcing them to become parents is going to either (a) do any good for either the embryo that will become their child, or ( do anything to improve their readiness, attitude, and FITNESS to parent??? Many children are born to parents that feel just like that. Some obviously never change or we would not have abused children. Some do That however is not the initial thrust of this thread, or yours or that of others that believe "choice" in this case is. Is abortion on demand biblical?? Your research to prove the text quoted made it so,you seemed to be saying it is. Did you or anyone else read the rest of the verse and the chapter before you were so determined to use a couple of sentences to promote or condone this "choice" as biblical? If you didn't, why not? I, so far haven't read anything in the bible that states specifically Do or do not abort on demand. That leaves me with what it does say. I can and have read the texts that places importance by God on the unborn. Both you and Neil have concurred that God places extreme value on "my choice" They will have eternal life.Same as those that breathe independently. Seems an objection is made here to looking squarely at what the word "choice" actually defines. Why is that? Choice is not the sanitary little word. Pregnancy in most cases is not a terminal disease. Does not have to mean raising a child you do not want. Abortion is terminal. If God places such value on this "little choice" what value should we place on it? The initial question is not "Well, it is no worse than, Or would you rather have this, Or I don't like this but....,Or the child will be resurrected so what is the big deal.. The answer you and others gave was to attempt to prove it was biblical, first and foremost. Lacking an absolute leaves us with what was said by God in regards to unborn life. Or do you believe that the human reasoning of those that took part in this supercedes? Something is wrong with this picture IMO. First an all out attempt to stretch a couple of sentences in a text to bolster your claim approval for "choice" is biblical. Then an attempt to use all the reasoning above. After all, there are parents that have children that never should without it. What if it is handicapped or diseased. Back to the animals that were handicapped and diseased on the farm. I put them down. They did not have value. I do not beleve they have the importance to be resurrected. Is choice (abortion) on demand biblical or approved of by God? If it is, show me. If it is not, do you believe God should have made it biblical and just forgot to include it? Or, is this endorsing something without it being biblical? Or, have we gotten to the point it is not important, just convenient? That is all I have really asked. If you are to sway, convince, or in anyway influence someone in something God places such value on, do you feel a need to have biblical support or only what you believe should be a right? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted August 16, 2004 Author Share Posted August 16, 2004 Quote: In reality, I am using the other side as a spring board to present what I believe to be contrasting biblical truths so that when a silent reader comes along and is somewhat confused over the issue, I hope what I write is clear enough to polarize some towards what I believe with all my heart to be truth! You make a very passionate appeal for the life of a fetus/child. The birth of a child is something to rejoice over. A wanted child is a child that will always have the knowledge that he is wanted and loved. Even a child who grows up as an adopted child knows that he is doubly blessed, once by his birth mother to keep him alive, and once by the parents who choose this child to be thier own. But a child that is not wanted, is a child that is burden with the knowledge that he is not loved. He caused his parents pain. I happen to know of some people who feel that they should have never been born. And this, after they have thought this out, weighing all the consequences. Quote: For a Christian person to argue in favor of this senseless slaughter absolutely blows my mind. I love God, and I thank Jesus for what He has done for me and all of you regardless of what your view is. I want you all to understand, as a human being, I DO NOT hold myself up as better or smarter then any of you who disagree on this subject. I am attempting to speak clear and forthright about an issue I feel extremely burdened to speak out on. What? Are the Christians who voice the opposing view NOT Chistians? Why not? I submit that, in your mind, you have already judged these people, who are just as passionate about thier stance as you are of yours. I would submit that you need to remove the passion on both sides of the equation so as to clearly see the issues invovled. Quote: Stop and think for a moment. Those in favor of abortion point their fingers at people who "bomb abortion clinics", murder abortionists etc. They call this behavior intolerable and want to see it punished, i.e. legislation making it “illegal”, which it is, and it’s odd, I hear NO ONE saying THIS is going to promote the Sunday law. In my view and many, many others, (in fact, to the majority of human beings in this country) it is no different to intentionally murder innocent and defenseless human beings in or out of the womb. It is simply senseless murder. Ok, before you go on to your rant about "sensless murder" and "the blood of the children cries out before God for vengence", I would like to point out that the world would agree with your view that to kill a baby that is outside the womb would be concidered murder. The caviot is that this viewpoint is in most western civilizations. And the reason most of these countries believe it to be murder is that the child is outside the womb, it is self-sustaning, and has all the rights and privilages that you or I do. But a fetus that is depending upon mother, has no rights as that. It can not sustain itself for any great lenth of time, and needs to be constantly fed oxygen and other neutrients. That ties it to the woman. That child is physically a part of her. Therefore, she has the right to decide to remove herself from that child. I also submit to you, that no woman makes this choice lightly. But only when a woman feels the need to do so. This is something that most pro-lifers dont focus on. They paint the picture as a choice lightly entered into. I really don't think a woman does that.... Quote: The most heinous crime, is to commit a crime against a defenseless (born) infant, most of you would agree regardless what your view is on abortion. To murder, sexually assault, or brutalize a helpless infant is taboo for nearly all of society excepting the brutalizer. Nearly all would advocate and implement whatever militant measures necessary to save born infants from any form of brutalization whatsoever where ever possible. Some feel with extreme sincerity and sense of purpose, the same protectiveness for the unborn, defenseless, innocent human being and if they take a violent stand then it is likely they will have to pay for their actions. This same reasoning can be used to "unfit" a mother who wants to have an abortion. But implimenting this reasoning into law, you have made the woman who is pregnant the brutalizer, if she decides to have an abortion. If caught before she aborts the child, she could be forced to endure the nine month pregnancy, give up the child, and executed for the attempt on the child's life. Thus, you give evidence that a woman is nothing more than a baby making machine with no rights nor privileges in governing her reproductive status. Her role is to be a slave to the men of society and fulfill thier sexual fanascys and have children. And if she, in anyway, verbally says anything that remotely says that she doesn't want anymore children, she then could be viewed as going against her "God given nature of child rearing/bearing" and loose the current children that she has. Quote: What pro abortionists are saying is the woman gets to make the same choice as above, with little or absolutely NO moral regard for the "innocent" life being murdered, she is making the "choice" and she will receive total and complete absolution because she is a woman and it is her body. What I find conveniently and curiously missing is how her body is supposed to be the "Holy" Temple of the Living God. To allow someone to reach inside this Temple and brutally murder an innocent child is one of the ultimate perversities a Christian could refuse to stand against! You know, you ought to take a look at the tools used in orthopedics....There is a hammer, a saw, screwdriver, and other archaic surgical instruments. And Doctors use these things to work on the human body, with thier hands in the cavety of the body, ripping and cutting , grinding down bone and such. Each is a surgical procedure. If, pro-lifers get thier way, then women will look for abortion procedures out side of the hospitals, and the incidence of bleeding out, trama, non-sterile instruments causing infections, will reck havoc upon that portion of the population. Maybe you dont remember this, but it was there in your day back in WWII, Steve. And when complications arose from backyard abortions, not only did you loose the fetus, but you quite often lost the mother as well. Quote: just because a christian says abortion should not be legislated and is a matter of choice, doesn't make it right. First off, no one ever said that abortion was right. But every woman is presented with a choice. She alone has to make the decision to carry the child or not. A husband is a good thing, and can help in the making of that choice to carry the child to term. But in many homes, it is the husband who wishes the abortion, and the woman complies. Would you really want to force a child to be raised in that sort of atomsphere? Some familys are not supportive of thier women who get pregnant out of wedlock. They kick the woman out into the street. How supportive is that of society? No wonder that many get secret abortions. Is a child really something you want growing up in a non-supportive family? A woman weighs that choice better than a man does and many times, she arbrogates that decision to the man. And he wants it aborted. And you want a child to be growing up in that sort of dysfunctional family??? It seems to me that a child growing up in a dysfunctional family is like a puppy getting it's tail removed 1/2 inch at at time....At what point will the puppy refuse to come to you when you ask it to come so that you can chop of another 1/2 inch of tail? Doesn't the puppy slowly grow to distrust you everytime you show up?So what's the difference between that puppy and the child who isn't wanted amd grows up in a dysfunctional family? Anyway, it's late and I think I have said enough. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Quote: But a child that is not wanted, is a child that is burden with the knowledge that he is not loved. Simply untrue and what the gospel message is all about! Jesus died for and loves this person, who are we to tamper with that? Quote: What? Are the Christians who voice the opposing view NOT Chistians? What? Where did you get that? Quote: But a fetus that is depending upon mother, has no rights as that. It can not sustain itself for any great lenth of time, and needs to be constantly fed oxygen and other neutrients. That ties it to the woman. That child is physically a part of her. By the same tolken and the exact same reasoning a person who is on life support has NO rights. Even from a "logical" view point, your arguements just don't add up, much less a biblical one. Quote: Thus, you give evidence that a woman is nothing more than a baby making machine with no rights nor privileges in governing her reproductive status. Her role is to be a slave to the men of society and fulfill thier sexual fanascys and have children. Where do you get this woman, baby making machine, sexual slave garbage? I will say again, it is plain, much from your own words, that you do not know the proper value of a woman. Quote: You know, you ought to take a look at the tools used in orthopedics....There is a hammer, a saw, screwdriver, and other archaic surgical instruments. And Doctors use these things to work on the human body, with thier hands in the cavety of the body, ripping and cutting , grinding down bone and such. Each is a surgical procedure. In regards to the human body as a Temple of God? Ok, so, and??? I can use a hammer to repair and I can use a hammer to destroy, what's your point? Quote: And when complications arose from backyard abortions, not only did you loose the fetus, but you quite often lost the mother as well. Choice and consequences my boy, the natural order of the Universe. You make a choice and get to deal with the consequences good or bad. This is all I have time for this morning. Quote SteveB "Whenever one begins to look at the bible as being subjective and open to “human” interpretation, watch closely for winsome philosophical excuses to follow." ME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Quote: This is why I would prefer to leave this issue to the doctors and the women who carry the child. It is her bodys. But to force women to carry an unwanted pregnacy is to reduce the woman to the level of being a 2nd class citizen. She has no rights to her body and is therefore nothing more than a baby-producing slave. And while someone else said that this issue is on the same level as slavery, in this sense, I would agree. This is where the anti abortion people start to waver and not answer the question. When it comes to rape should the woman be forced to carry the child conceived in violence for nine months? This would be torture for a woman to be reminded of that violence for nine months. This is exactly why the courts overturn those anti abortion laws because they refused to address this issue and the issue of what to do to if an abortion would save a mothers life. Until abortion is allowed in cases of Rape, Incest and to save the mothers life no law against abortion will be allowed to stand by the courts for it violates the woman's most sacred rights of her own body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveB Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Rape conceptions didn't even make it into the statistics I recently looked up: Quote: 25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing. 21.3% of women cannot afford a baby. 14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child. 12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.) 10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career. 7.9% of women want no (more) children. 3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health. 2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health. these statistics were taken from The Alan Guttmacher Institute. If a major part of your argument is rape, well this is a very minor part of the statistics and hence this discusion as shown in the above survey, obviously less then 2.8% of total abortions so I think the topic is more centered in a different venue and I don't want to debate with you the biblical ruling on rape because you would most certainly call it hogwash. Quote SteveB "Whenever one begins to look at the bible as being subjective and open to “human” interpretation, watch closely for winsome philosophical excuses to follow." ME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 Quote: This is why I would prefer to leave this issue to the doctors and the women who carry the child. It is her bodys. But to force women to carry an unwanted pregnacy is to reduce the woman to the level of being a 2nd class citizen. She has no rights to her body and is therefore nothing more than a baby-producing slave. And while someone else said that this issue is on the same level as slavery, in this sense, I would agree. The baby making machine statement is nothing more than a parroting of the over dramatiztion of a nine month period in a woman's life. Takes a whole lot more before this phrase should be used so freely. I have control of my body, I had the choice to marry and I had the choice to engage in the activity that would cause a pregnancy. I also had the choice to refuse to raise the result. When I was also responsibile for another body then I have far more to consider. (quote)This is where the anti abortion people start to waver and not answer the question.(/quote) Waver ?? How so. A. I do not believe in abortion on demand. B. If that belief were ever to change you need to show me biblically where God endorses and approves of abortion on demand Not a couple of sentences that are tortured beyond belief to prove God does approve. C.When it comes to rape should the woman be forced to carry the child conceived in violence for nine months? A child is a child no matter how conceived. The mother's physical and mental stability need to have priority. That is far different than abortion on demand for convenience D.This would be torture for a woman to be reminded of that violence for nine months. Spoken like a man. I know women that have been raped, it has been several years for some, no pregnancy. They live every day with the memory of the violence. E. This is exactly why the courts overturn those anti abortion laws because they refused to address this issue and the issue of what to do to if an abortion would save a mothers life. Patently false. Roe VS Wade was the catylst for abortion becoming a "right". By a woman that simply did not want her child. This battle was not fought for rape victims. From what you have said this is not your concern either. It is preferable in your eyes to have "abortion rights" instead of the SUN law. F. Until abortion is allowed in cases of Rape, Incest and to save the mothers life no law against abortion will be allowed to stand by the courts for it violates the woman's most sacred rights of her own body. Theraputic abortions to save the life of the mother was not a reason and didn't have to be. That was already a reality. Now back to your wavering. Before a christian gives his approval, consent, aid, or support to anything of this magnitude, what should be his guide? Did God approve or endorse abortion? Maybe you think he did. What do you base that on? Do we have a responsibiity for what we promote as a moral right? Do we have a moral right to support that which we say is wrong? To say abortion is wrong, it takes the life of a child, but I will defend and support your right to do so, becomes the most tortured reasoning when followed with the qualifier........ IF you repent of this moral right I support, you and this "choice" will have eternal life. Fill in whatever choice someone wants to make, then we should not have any objection to anything. Pretty simple. Do you believe it is biblical? Do you believe it is uncertain? Do you believe it to be a child? If not, do you have you the divine insight to determine at what point it becomes a child? If you support/take part in anyway in the destruction of this "choice" would you believe biblical assurrance is necessary? Is The Supreme Court and it's ruling the authority to which you bow. Do you bow to their ruling on just this ssue, or will you bow to their ruling on all issues? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted August 16, 2004 Author Share Posted August 16, 2004 Quote: Simply untrue and what the gospel message is all about! Jesus died for and loves this person, who are we to tamper with that? No one said that this was untrue, but it is quite often the reality. Most children [even adult children] that know that they are a unwanted/burden would have rather not been born. Fortunately, most parents, with the "oops" or "surprise!" child are happy with the situation. It's an "oh, well, we can deal with this" issue. Quote: What? Where did you get that? You are "blown" by thier reasoning...Why are you "blown away" by the reasoning? Quote: By the same tolken and the exact same reasoning a person who is on life support has NO rights. Even from a "logical" view point, your arguements just don't add up, much less a biblical one. There is president regarding the one who is on life support. He choose to come in and be placed upon it. A fetus has no such president. He comes due to the choice/action of others. Therefore, his existance is dependant upon the choices of others. A person placed upon life support either comes in on his own choice or the choice of others who did NOT want this turn of events to happen. Quote: Where do you get this woman, baby making machine, sexual slave garbage? I will say again, it is plain, much from your own words, that you do not know the proper value of a woman. I submit to you the question: If a woman does not have rights to her body, then whose body does she belong to? Aside from the religious implications [specifically that her body belongs to God], if she does not have the rights to concieve, then her body belongs to whomever society deems responsible. She is, therefore, a second class citizen, subject to the whims of society, especially male society. You may agree with your wife, and she may feel that she can not abort a baby, and you may even cherish her as a woman, but I would also submit that this philosophy enters into your daily life and causes relationship problems of male dominance in the family rather than parents being equal partners in a family. I wonder if you concider yourself the "head of the household". If so,I also wander if your wife "rankles" over your male decisions? Quote: In regards to the human body as a Temple of God? Ok, so, and??? I can use a hammer to repair and I can use a hammer to destroy, what's your point? The "temple of God" arguement is typically used to imply thatthe body is a sacred place. My arguement shows that it is no more sacred than surgury. Quote: hoice and consequences my boy, the natural order of the Universe. You make a choice and get to deal with the consequences good or bad. And you tell me that I have a problem with women....These are the "bad" girls that, in your opinion, deserve whatever befalls them. These are the woman whose natural tendancys of nurturing are shaped by the man [isn't that what God intended by a "helpmate"] and yet, these same women are abandoned by the males and are ridiculed by other males. What woman would want a child under these conditions???? let alone bear one for nine months? Well, that's HER PROBLEM, isn't it? Shame on you, for neglecting the orphan, no matter what her age.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted August 16, 2004 Author Share Posted August 16, 2004 Quote: these statistics were taken from The Alan Guttmacher Institute. These are the same women who feel that society can not support them in thier decision to have a baby. In fact, 12.2% of aborting women have as a reason for the abortion "their parents or others object to the pregnancy". There is no support there for the fetus. Another 14% say thier partner doesn't want children, another lack of support from society. Over 1/5 of aborting mothers can not afford to have children. Another lack of support from society. Nearly half of all abortions are from a womans lack of societal support.And you want her to carry this unwanted child for 9 months? I have a better idea. Why don't YOU carry the unwanted child for 9 months and YOU take the ecomonic/emotional toll to raise this kid 24/7? I know you probably have done this, but I challenge you to do it by yourself, with wages that are 10 to 20% less than what a man typically does for comporable work, and with no support, ie people to drop of the kids without paying for them, feeding them nutrious foods ect. I know that it is possible and can be done, but not all women are up to the challenge...perhaps they see the necessity for an abortion better than you do.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 (quote)No one said that this was untrue, but it is quite often the reality. Most children [even adult children] that know that they are a unwanted/burden would have rather not been born. Fortunately, most parents, with the "oops" or "surprise!" child are happy with the situation. It's an "oh, well, we can deal with this" issue.(/quote) Stats please or something to back that. (quote)By the same tolken and the exact same reasoning a person who is on life support has NO rights. Even from a "logical" view point, your arguements just don't add up, much less a biblical one.(/quote) False. Maybe in your state, but not here. We have had family members on life-support and their rights were carefully considered. "To answer Steve's question...... Where do you get this woman, baby making machine, sexual slave garbage?" This comes from the feminists. Have listened to interviews of their agenda on television.They go a little further and claim everytime a man has sex with his wife it is technically rape. (quote)I submit to you the question: If a woman does not have rights to her body, then whose body does she belong to?(/quote) As a woman I have rights to my body. What I don't believe I have a right to is destruction of another body on a whim. (quote) Aside from the religious implications [specifically that her body belongs to God], if she does not have the rights to concieve, then her body belongs to whomever society deems responsible.(/quote) I have every right not to conceive. I also have to take responsibility for understanding sex is not a biological right, it carries privileges and responsibilties when I make that decision. I also have to take the responsiblity that birth control can fail. (quote) She is, therefore, a second class citizen, subject to the whims of society, especially male society.(/quote) Over dramitized. Being denied the right to abortion for whatever reason I wish does not make me a second class citizen. Anymore than forcing the father to support something he doesn't want for 18 years makes him one. (quote)You may agree with your wife, and she may feel that she can not abort a baby, and you may even cherish her as a woman, but I would also submit that this philosophy enters into your daily life and causes relationship problems of male dominance in the family rather than parents being equal partners in a family.(/qoute) Interesting the conclusions you seem to draw. We have another household like this. Sorry your insight here is badly skewed. My husband and I have always ben equal partners, right down to the midnight feedings and diapers. He was Catholic at that time and was/is opposed to abortion. I held that view before I met him and had children. Hasn't a thing to do with male dominence whatsoever. You are really reaching on this one. (quote) I wonder if you concider yourself the "head of the household". If so,I also wander if your wife "rankles" over your male decisions?(/quote) In our house, YUP. But my husband shares a very different view of that word than you seem to. He was/is not afraid to be the head of our household( seems to be that is biblical isn't it) that I will rankle over his male decisions. He is mature enough and self assurred enough in his own right, he knows he doesn't need force, nor does he want my ageement by force. Our decisions were made together. Where he stepped in as head of our household was to protect, take over in area's better qualified with our son's, and as to what we both wanted, work to make it possible for me to stay home and raise our son's rather than hire a surrgate mother. Where there was something I wanted, even if he didn't see a need for it, there was no overuling male dominence. I went and bought it if the money was available. (quote)In regards to the human body as a Temple of God? Ok, so, and??? I can use a hammer to repair and I can use a hammer to destroy, what's your point? The "temple of God" arguement is typically used to imply thatthe body is a sacred place. My arguement shows that it is no more sacred than surgury.(/quote) Surgery is done to correct/enhance life/alleviate pain. Abortion is done to terminate life. Major difference (quote)And you tell me that I have a problem with women....These are the "bad" girls that, in your opinion, deserve whatever befalls them.(/quote) Paying the consequences or reaping the rewards of personal conduct is a fact of life. Can't be avoided. Even in the utopian world of abortion of unwanted children (quote) These are the woman whose natural tendancys of nurturing are shaped by the man [isn't that what God intended by a "helpmate"](/quote) My husband in no way shaped my natural tendency of nurturing. My husband's role as helpmeet was a whole lot different than that. (quote) and yet, these same women are abandoned by the males and are ridiculed by other males. What woman would want a child under these conditions????(/quote) Happens that way sometimes, but mostly this is poppycock. Women abort more than anything over convenience or just plain not wanting a child. Read the stats and information. Women more and more are finding a man unecessary in their plans to have a child. Fertility clinics have taken care of that. (quote) let alone bear one for nine months? Well, that's HER PROBLEM, isn't it? Shame on you, for neglecting the orphan, no matter what her age....(/quote) Nope, his problem as well, at least here. He will pay for at least 18 years, like it or not. He has lost control of his body. He doesn't pay, it is taken from him, he doesn't work so there is something to take, his driver's liscence goes, followed quickly by free bed and breakfast compliments of the State of MN. No choice, no control over what he does with the child of his body. And usually the shaft in a custody suit, no matter how could a father and how lousy a mother. Sounds like a second class citizen to me Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> And force a woman to go through nine months of an unwanted pregnancy. Of course they could always go to Mexico to get an abortion. Even think of that? <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Actually abortion is illegal in Mexico and many Mexicans come to the US for an abortion. If Roe v. Wade is reversed abortion will become a state's rights issue decided by the people (not the courts). So it will be legal in some states and illegal in others. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> A wanted child is a child that will always have the knowledge that he is wanted and loved. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> All children are wanted. There is no child conceived by mistake. They are wanted by someone and God has their entire lives planned out. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> And when complications arose from backyard abortions, not only did you loose the fetus, but you quite often lost the mother as well. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> If and when abortion is made illegal in the US, "backyard" abortions will be in the form of a pill. We are not living in the 60s any more. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> She has no rights to her body and is therefore nothing more than a baby-producing slave…if she does not have the rights to concieve, then her body belongs to whomever society deems responsible. She is, therefore, a second class citizen, subject to the whims of society, especially male society. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> This would be true if women were forced to have sex. If a male-dominated society forced women to have sex and forced them to have children than women would be nothing more than baby-making machines. Yet in the US women are having sex out of their own free will. No baby-making machines here. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> There is president regarding the one who is on life support. He chooses to come in and be placed upon it. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> He spins and spins!!! So what if the guy gets in an accident or has a stroke and is put on life support without consent. Who has the rights to pull the plug? Keep spinning. You must be getting this off some liberal, pro-choice web site. Or are you a spin master yourself? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 A lot of dicussion on when the abortion takes place. First second or third trimester. Here are the facts. At What Gestational Ages Are Abortions Performed? As noted above, the only national data on the incidence of abortion by weeks of gestation come from the CDC reports, which are dependent on state-generated information that is often incomplete. States also vary in their methods of recording gestational age: Some use the number of weeks that have elapsed since the woman's last menstrual period (which overstates the length of gestation), and others record the physician's estimate of gestational age. In addition, individual states, over time, have changed their reporting format, making it difficult to observe trends and make comparisons. The CDC reports group all abortions after 20 weeks of gestation into one category. After the CDC figures are adjusted for underreporting, approximately 16,450 procedures, or roughly 1% of all abortions in 1992, were estimated to have been performed beyond 20 weeks since the woman's last menstrual period (see Table 1). Table 1. Induced Abortions, 1992 Gestational age Number Total 1,528,930 <9 weeks 798,850 9-10 weeks 377,570 11-12 weeks 181,960 13-15 weeks 94,060 16-20 weeks 60,040 >20 weeks 16,450 21-22 weeks 10,340 23-24 weeks 4,940 25-26 weeks 850 >26 weeks 320 Note: Numbers are estimates by AGI based on AGI survey data, the CDC abortion surveillance reports and data compiled by the National Center for Health Statistics. Extrapolating from unpublished data for 14 states compiled by the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS), it is possible to estimate that two-thirds of these abortions were performed at 21-22 weeks. After 26 weeks, the number of abortion s nationwide is estimated at 320; given the uncertainty of the data, however, the number could be as high as 600. http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/ib14.html As you can see abortions are by far done in the first three months of the pregnancy. That means the partial birth abortion is by far in the minority and is less than 1 percent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Overview: Opposition to widespread abortion access is found more frequently among: Fundamentalists, Evangelical Protestants, and Orthodox Jews; Older persons; People with less education; Persons with lower income; Political conservatives; Republicans; and Afro-Americans. Support for widespread abortion access is found more frequently among: Catholics, Mainline Protestants, liberal Protestants and Reform Jews; Younger persons; People with higher educational attainments; Persons with higher income; Political moderates and liberals, Democrats and Independents; and Whites. According to a year 2000 Gallup Poll: Most American adults (51%) currently believe that abortions should be legal under some circumstances. 28% believe that abortions should be legal under all circumstances. 19% believe that they should be always illegal -- apparently even to save the life of the woman. The same poll reveals that 50% of adults identify themselves as pro-choice; 40% as pro-life. http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_poll.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Here is an interesting poll. Contradictory but interesting. Los Angeles Times national poll of 2000-JUN: The Center for American Women and Politics at Rutgers University polled 2,071 Americans from JUN-8 to 13. 2 Margin of error is 2 percentage points. Question Response Believe that abortion is murder 57% Believe that a woman and her physician should be able to decide to have an early abortion Over 67% Abortion OK if life of woman at risk 85% Abortion OK if woman's emotional health threatened 54% Abortion OK is fetus is at risk of an abnormality 66% Abortion should be illegal in 2nd or 3rd trimester 65% Support for Roe vs. Wade court decision 43% http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_poll2.htm Interesting that 57 percent think abortion is murder yet 67 percent feel that if a woman and her doctor decide on an abortion then it is ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 more facts on abortion. Why Abortions Are Performed The overwhelming majority of all abortions, (95%), are done as a means of birth control. Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest; 1% because of fetal abnormalities; 3% due to the mother's health problems. Source: Central Illinois Right To Life Reasons Women Choose Abortion (U.S.) Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5% Wants no (more) children: 7.9% Cannot afford a baby: 21.3% Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2% Risk to maternal health: 2.8% Risk to fetal health: 3.3% Other: 2.1% http://www.abortiontv.com/AbortionStatistics.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Quote: Quote: The problem isn't abortion....It's "self-love". It's capitalism at it's finest....It's namely about "money" and "vanity"....Listen to the excuses: "I need an education, I'm not ready for this child." "It would interrupt my life." "Having a child will cause me to get ugly stretch marks." "It cost too much money to raise a child....I want my child to have everything and since I am not ready financially I chose to abort." And now in all honesty ... do you consider persons who would make statements similar to those above to be fit to become parents? Would you want to be their child???? Do you think forcing them to become parents is going to either (a) do any good for either the embryo that will become their child, or ( do anything to improve their readiness, attitude, and FITNESS to parent??? Force? Who forced them to have sex? Have you ever heard of responsibility? So your answer is if someone is not responsible that it's okay to kill the unborn???? Why not adoption? Oh yeah I forgot -- stretch marks....! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Quote: Force? Who forced them to have sex? Ever heard of Rape or incest? Stats say that happens in 1 percent of these abortions but it still happens. Any law that bans abortions should take that into consideration. So many of these politicians make the laws so draconian that they do not take into consideration the 5 percent of cases to save the mothers life, Rape and incest and deformities. These laws are always thrown out by the courts because of this. Why do these politicians make these laws? IMO they never wanted them passed and to stick. They wanted to please their conservative constituents and at the same time please their pro-choice constituents by making a law they knew full well would never stand the test of the courts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Quote: Reasons Women Choose Abortion (U.S.) Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5% Wants no (more) children: 7.9% Cannot afford a baby: 21.3% Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2% Risk to maternal health: 2.8% Risk to fetal health: 3.3% Other: 2.1% OK lets discuss the cost of having a child. Who pays for an unwanted child. Remember medical costs are soaring out of control. Having a child will costs potentially thousands of dollars. Is the state prepared to pay welfare for the women who gets pregnant and cannot afford to keep the child. Adaption has been brought up. Are the people who bring up adaption willing to do just that. Or is this just big talk and little action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 There are so many twists and turns to this argument, all to avoid the first and what many would think the most important question. This wouldn't be wavering would it. !.Ever heard of Rape or incest? Stats say that happens in 1 percent of these abortions but it still happens. Roe Vs Wade was not passed because on this 1% It was passed so women had a choice based on any reason. Maybe if they had not been so willing to dispose of any child on demand?????? 2. Any law that bans abortions should take that into consideration. So many of these politicians make the laws so draconian that they do not take into consideration the 5 percent of cases to save the mothers life, The mother's life was protected long before you thought of it. Long before Roe VS Wade, 1964 in my case, to be exact, it was not only recommended, but strongly encouraged I have just that as it was not anticipated I could survive the rest of my pregnancy and his birth. 3. Rape and incest and deformities. These laws are always thrown out by the courts because of this. Why do these politicians make these laws? IMO they never wanted them passed and to stick. They wanted to please their conservative constituents and at the same time please their pro-choice constituents by making a law they knew full well would never stand the test of the courts. Really have to work at the mental gymastics on this one. On the issue of deformaties, which qualifies for the death sentence and makes you unfit to live. 4.OK lets discuss the cost of having a child. Who pays for an unwanted child. Same people that are paying now. Abortion has not eliminated or reduced the cost of unwanted children. Besides, I have been under the impression all along this whole argument didn't have anything to do with money, but my right to refuse to become a baby-making machine and sex slave. 5,Remember medical costs are soaring out of control. This sounds very christian and biblical. Weighing the value of a life. Medical insurnace and care is high. Eeny-meeny-miney-mo, which life will give the most bang for the buck. And here I thought we all had the same value to God. 6. Having a child will costs potentially thousands of dollars. Is the state prepared to pay welfare for the women who gets pregnant and cannot afford to keep the child. Your arguments have enough holes I could fall thru them. The state has/is and will continue to pay for them. They even continue to pay, pay and pay for those that continue to have children and wanting others to bear the responsibility. We worked with Social Services for a number of years, we cared for twenty children during that time. State paid for their care and medical. Some had abusive parents that never should have had their children returned, and some just needed an assist during illness or a family crisis 7. Adaption has been brought up. Are the people who bring up adaption willing to do just that. Or is this just big talk and little action. The waiting list is so long it stretches across the globe, people mortgaging their homes to go to other countries to adopt. First and foremost you are still ducking the questions. Is abortion on demand, which your articles have acknowleged are basically birth control biblically based? At what point in time does life begin? At conception, first trimester, second, third, or not until they take their first breath on their own? Is it a human life when it is prevented from the natural birth process so it cannot take that first breath? Not only prevented, but artificially turned to ensure the goal of a dead child? If I decide to late I do not want the child and it is born head first, can the DR smother it, or stick a scissors in it's brain? If not, why not? When did this fetus take on any value? Where has your biblcal reference been found to endorse and support this? Do you have a reference to support the monetary reasons for aborting a child. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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