The abortion issue-

[fifiqueen]

This debate will continue to rage until the end of time.

I have noticed that there are two ends to the spectrum those who don't acknowledge that abortion actually is taking a life those that believe that those who abort are just selfish evil women.

Well there are a range of reasons why women choose abortion and the pressures of society are a valid reason. I wonder how many here would sit down and discuss sex reasonably with their children, talking freely about contraception and the realities of bringing a life into the world. Or maybe talk to them openly about their own experiences and let them know that they had their parents support even if there was dismay and dissappointment.

I'll tell you why I had an abortion (for my sins). I was 23 just moved to a new city, everyone had me destined for failure, the pressure of the church families wroth overwhelmed me, the pressure of my family and the babies Fathers family made me ill. I had no idea of how I could have supported this child and felt completely helpless.

Contraception? Well no one spoke to me about it apart from what I had learn't in school, I felt that if I took it then I would suddenly have no control over my sin because instead of me being able to say "no" when the opportunity arose I would have already protected myself. If we used condoms then it meant then that we would be preparing for sex. So better to use nothing and try and say "no". But how can you say no when you've already gone to far.

So I ended up pregnant with no real way to support my child, the condemnation of two churches hanging over me as well as two families making my life hell. I couldn't take it, I couldn't see down the road and what I could see frightened me. So I went to the clinic and got it down. The pain of that experience has never ever left me. I wonder about that child and what it may have looked like, what sex it was, what hopes for the future there may have been.

This abortion was murder but it is something that is between me and God and no-one else. I don't need your judgements of what I should or should not have done or your condemnations. None of you can condemn me anymore than I have condemned myself. It was not selfishness that drove me it was fear.

Shane mentioned about going through adoption. For a woman who is scared adoption is not an option. To go through the stress of condemnation from everyone around you, be taken to the board, parents and siblings not wanting contact with you to only then give away the child you have carried for nine months does not sit well many women.

Not everyone aborts as a form of contraception, not everyone is being selfish, some women feel so desperate they cannot think straight. Some women don't have or get the support they need their and then and showing pictures of aborted foetus's does not help them but scares them all the more.

What is needed? Well at the beginning I feel that Neil was correct in some respects. Better education, education about the causes of sexual activity, how easy it is to end up pregnant, about the reality of abortion and having a baby and what that means. Educate about the value of life. Educate parents to have these kinds of dicussions with their children rather than just saying " don't bring any babies in my house before your married". Educate churches to be willing to talk openly about sex within marraige and the santity of it instead rattling on about fornication and disfellowshiping a woman the minute she gets pregnant out of wedlock.

We lack education, understanding and knowledge Our first reactions tend often to be to condemn or defend.

What do I do when a young girl comes to me about their pregnant state, I promise support whatever the outcome, go through the pro's and con's of both courses of action and pray as much as I can. I never condone their actions but their actions are just that.. their actions. They are not mine and they are between that girl and God. What she needs is love understanding and support. Condemnation in this situation often leads to rebellion and a lack of trust. To be open honest in love is what is required.

I have been open here about something that not even all of my family know. I have settled it with God. But I recognise that this issue is not just black and white there are shades of grey. Those shades are grey are not about it being right or wrong, they are about understanding the circumstances that a person finds themselves in and caring enough to listen.

Blessings on you all

Fifiqueen X

[aldona]

Fifi, thank you for sharing that...it takes a great deal of courage to share an experience like that. Particularly in a forum where there are some very strongly held views on abortion.

It has reinforce my privately held belief that those who have the most "black and white" approach to abortion are often male, whereas the female often knows from personal experience (or the experiences of those around her) that some things cannot always be easily labelled in the "black" or "white" category.

I don't mean this as a stereotype - there are many dear brothers on this forum who have demonstrated a balanced and compassionate attitude - but it is just an observation I have made from reading published material on the abortion debate, letters to editors of newspapers, etc.

In an ideal world there would be no abortion because there would be no need for it. This is not an ideal world and these painful and complicated situations will continue to arise.

aldona

[bonnie]

(quote)I have noticed that there are two ends to the spectrum those who don't acknowledge that abortion actually is taking a life those that believe that those who abort are just selfish evil women.(/quote)

This is not an accurate statement as pertains to this particular discussion.

There are those that believe it is a child and abortion on demand is a great thing to be protected, to prevent women from becoming baby making sex saves.

I have never called anyone evil for their stance on abortion. Many women, if you read the stats to so for a form of birth control and convenience.

(quote)Well there are a range of reasons why women choose abortion and the pressures of society are a valid reason.(/quote)

There are, and yet the majority still occur

for the sake of selfish convenience. Not all.

(quote) I wonder how many here would sit down and discuss sex reasonably with their children, talking freely about contraception and the realities of bringing a life into the world.(/quote)

Automatic assumption that the real cause of abortion is to be placed with the parents. Can't speak for the rest here, but our four sons were sat down with and talked to. They knew exactly what the realities were of bringing a life into the world.

(quote) Or maybe talk to them openly about their own experiences and let them know that they had their parents support even if there was dismay and dissappointment.(/quote)

Assuming again that parents don't love their children enough or are to embarrassed to discuss. I knew that I always had my parents support.

(quote)I'll tell you why I had an abortion (for my sins). I was 23 just moved to a new city, everyone had me destined for failure, the pressure of the church families wroth overwhelmed me, the pressure of my family and the babies Fathers family made me ill. I had no idea of how I could have supported this child and felt completely helpless.(/quote)

I don't know your circumstance, what was available to you, or your church family. A out of wedlock pegnancy is not stigmitized any longer. In most circles it is a fact of life. And for all the comments that have been previously made in this thread, help is available for those that need/want it

(quote)Contraception? Well no one spoke to me about it apart from what I had learn't in school, I felt that if I took it then I would suddenly have no control over my sin because instead of me being able to say "no" when the opportunity arose I would have already protected myself. If we used condoms then it meant then that we would be preparing for sex. So better to use nothing and try and say "no". But how can you say no when you've already gone to far.(/quote)

This may have been true for you then, contraception is available in our public schools for those that ask. From the parents that have children in our public schools, asking for and getting contraception does not seem to be a problem. I am sorry you went thru this, and no I can't imagine being there. My being oppossed to abortion in no way says anything like you seem to think did.

(quote)This abortion was murder but it is something that is between me and God and no-one else.(/quote)

It is.Just to clarify before you read more into "It Is". It is between you and God

(quote) I don't need your judgements of what I should or should not have done or your condemnations. None of you can condemn me anymore than I have condemned myself. It was not selfishness that drove me it was fear.(/quote)

Maybe you can answer as this in one form or another always appears against those who hold a strong conviction on any subject, unless it is the strong conviction you should not hold a conviction.

In any discussion that takes place as this one did, inviting a response to the abortion issue, a belief of some has become a personal condemnation. While a response from those that are pro-abortion, and yes that is the choice we are talking about, condemning, telling

others what they should really think about the issue.

If you have really taken the time to read, my basic aversion to what was said here was not to condemn someone that made this choice, but the reasoning that you seem to think is well thought out by some.

(quote)Shane mentioned about going through adoption. For a woman who is scared adoption is not an option. To go through the stress of condemnation from everyone around you, be taken to the board, parents and siblings not wanting contact with you to only then give away the child you have carried for nine months does not sit well many women.(/quote)

Very few unwed mothers are taken to the board. I am sure it happens but by and large most do not and have not here for sometime.

Long before Roe VS Wade, women were doing just as you described. I have nothing but respect for the woman that placed her child in a loving home, I myself could not have done so .

I am not saying, "So they are scared, so what". Most are not that traumatized today by an unwed pregnancy.

(quote)Not everyone aborts as a form of contraception, not everyone is being selfish, some women feel so desperate they cannot think straight. Some women don't have or get the support they need their and then and showing pictures of aborted foetus's does not help them but scares them all the more.(/quote)

I don't think the claim was made that all do. Stats do confirm the most is a form of birth control.

They were graphic pictures, but for those that wish to support on demand for any reason whatsoever, why should they have a problem looking at what their "choice" is.

(quote)What is needed? Well at the beginning I feel that Neil was correct in some respects. Better education, education about the causes of sexual activity, how easy it is to end up pregnant, about the reality of abortion and having a baby and what that means. Educate about the value of life. Educate parents to have these kinds of dicussions with their children rather than just saying " don't bring any babies in my house before your married".(/quote)

No one has ever disputed this as far as I know. My dispute was/is with........

This is a child, carrying a child that causes you stress or an inconvenience is a right you have to prevent from becoming a baby making machine. Oops, don't forget, if you repent of this choice, you can bond with this baby in heaven.

This is not just understanding that cirucmstances do arise that don't seem to have all the right answers, and acting as we should towards those that find themselves there.

(quote) Educate churches to be willing to talk openly about sex within marraige and the santity of it instead rattling on about fornication and disfellowshiping a woman the minute she gets pregnant out of wedlock.

We lack education, understanding and knowledge Our first reactions tend often to be to condemn or defend.(/quote)

Educating our churches lie in the hands

of members and the leadership. Not going to happen any time soon.

You cannot talk about marriage and the sanctity of sex within. Seen it on this board to many times. Those that have tried have been hit repeatedly with the "Old judging again club" Those that hold to that conviction are usually seen as self-righteous and judgemental.

(quote)What do I do when a young girl comes to me about their pregnant state, I promise support whatever the outcome, go through the pro's and con's of both courses of action and pray as much as I can. I never condone their actions but their actions are just that.. their actions. They are not mine and they are between that girl and God. What she needs is love understanding and support.(/quote)

Again, an assumption. Those opossed to abortion could not possibly do this or have this attitude towards someone.

Not everyone that is oppossed to abortion condemns, nor refuses support no matter the outcome.

(quote) Condemnation in this situation often leads to rebellion and a lack of trust. To be open honest in love is what is required.(/quote)

You are right. And honesty also requires sometimes that portion people don't want to hear. Loving someone is not proved by a compromise of your own convictions.

My convctions cannot be used as a battering ram against a young unwed mother, but if asked and I have been, what I would do and do I think abortion is wrong, I will say so and why.

(quote) But I recognise that this issue is not just black and white there are shades of grey.(/quote)

What my objection to here is not covered in shades of gray.

1. Taking a chapter of Exodus and torturing a verse beyond belief looking for a nuance, while ignoring the rest of the statements made

2. A child is no more valable than a gorilla

3, A whale has the same value

4. Starving children of Africa. Roe VS Wade was not about african babies

5. Yes, it is a child, but go ahead, abortion on demand is to be protected at all cost for any reason.

6. Medical expenses, to expensive

7. Not enough aid. "Looked it up, parents on welfare in MN are above the poverty level "

8. Striking down Roe VS Wade may bring about Sun laws, let's protect this choice so we have Sabbath choice.

None of this has much if anything to do with your personal reasons.

From my perspective I was not referring to a scared young woman.

(quote) they are about understanding the circumstances that a person finds themselves in and caring enough to listen(/quote)

Being oppossed to abortion does not translate to not listening. Again, in one way or another, those that preach against the "judgemental" crowd leap to their own judgements and conclusions.

Might be a real shocker to some here, but it is not only possible, but happens with frequency that a person can actually have a strong conviction as to what they believe is right and wrong and still care about others. Many do help.

The assessments that get made at times are as unfair and unfounded as it would be for me to say all those pro-abortion,really don't care. They offer nothing but the chance to abort as many babies as possible.

NOT ABOUT CONDEMNATION, I believe abortion on demand for any reason we can think of is wrong is . So far, I have not seen any good argument that has convinced me I either need to compromise that belief, or not state what my conviction is.

To be accused of being condemning and judgemental, by those that don't believe in condemning and judging isn't enough

[Naomi]

FIfi, it is great to hear from you again. And Thank you for so openingly sharing a very personal chapter in your life. If it helps one person understand, on some level, it will be a good thing.

There is an old saying, "Walk a mile in my shoes" Idealism often errors on the hardline side. I thank God each and every day for taking the responsibility of judgement out of the hands of mortal man.

Courage my sister

[Rosie]

Fifi- There there more than you know that have walked in your shoes, I commend you for your courage in posting your experience.

[Gregory Matthews]

Fifi (not Rosie):

It took great courage to share. I hope you do not come to regret it.

[bonnie]

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Fifi (not Rosie):

It took great courage to share. I hope you do not come to regret it.

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What would be the purpose to anyone trying to make FiFi regret what she shared?

A scared young woman, feeling no where to turn is not what has been my dispute here. The others will have to speak for themselves.

Lacking in FiFi's story (and what sounds like a heartwrenching decision) is the gymnastics that have taken place.

Everything from no more value than a baby gorilla,to

a unwanted pregnancy reduces a woman to a baby-making sex slave machine. Somehow to starving children in Africa to if we we rescind this choice, what's next, the Sun law??

I am curious who may make her regret it. Certainly not those that share the view above, so who would that leave?

[Rosie]

I'm kind of curious about GM's comment, also.

[David_McQueen]

Being the joint decision maker at the time with FifiQ, the whole scenario was a painful one. Often people don't realise that men share just as much mental torment and anguish as ladies on this issue. It is an issue we feel safe to share not just here but in educating others in the wide issues that abortion embraces.

They say hindsight and experience are always good teachers, and although very much pro-life since then, I can well understand the fear, the regret after the incident, the shadow of guilt, the misunderstanding by those who cannot or will not empathise with what one has been through.

Like FifiQ it took time to accept God's forgiveness but it is well with my soul. Jesus knows.

[bonnie]

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I'm kind of curious about GM's comment, also.

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FiFi,

Just for the record and to be perfectly CLEAR. My point, critism, opposition to abortion is not a scared young frantic woman.

My oppsition is to try in someway, no matter the stretch to give it biblical support.

Maybe it is there and I just have not read it yet, but don't think so. I can't find anythi that says "Don't abort" but I can find texts that reveal without the desperate search for a nuance, his love and concern for the unborn. That all I have to go one. If in fact the unborn is valuable to God, they should have enough value to us that we are very careful in what we endorse, support and vote for.

Not the trite little phrases the NOW uses, as sex slave, baby making machine etc.

It needs more careful thought than throwing out reasons for approving abortions, till you may get lucky and one finally sticks to the wall.

We don't do enough for those that need our help, and I doubt if that will change.

Abortions will always ocurr, Roe VS Wade probably won't be struck down and it will remain legal.

Many things are considered legal, dosen't mean our full support as christians need to be behind condoning it.

I don't know who would, but sincerely hope no one will make you regret speaking out

[fifiqueen]

Bonnie,

My sincere apologises... my post was not a response to yours but a general response.

It's true in my day the stigma was awful, in the UK and West Indies disfellowship still happens.

Forgive me if it came across as though I was blaming parents. It was not my intention, I believe that education in general is necessary.

I'm glad to here that you experienced confident support from your parents and have passed that on. Not everyone has. I can speak for many in my culture and say that discussions are not very forth coming in many homes and support isn't often a strongly felt.

The spectrum I was mentioning was about abortion in general and not necessarily this particular thread and was my opinion. The extremes of the spectrum tend to be just that.... extreme. Again sorry for not clarifying.

I still find young people who are not so sure about using contraception based on the guilt feelings they have about using it. As well as the fear of being caught. But I take your point.

It seems that I have not made myself very clear at all with my post and again I am sorry. I am not assuming that all the hardliners will judge me harshly. The truth is that anyone who reads my post regardless of their views will make a judgement. Those who disagree with my murder statement and those who disagree with my abortion. That's just life! But I am at liberty to put the proviso in my post. To be honest Bonnie I haven't at all decided how I feel about the post you posted before mine! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I truly believe that just because someone has a strong view about something it doesn't mean that they have lost their love for others. It just means that they have a strong view about what ever it may be. Some are better at conveying their view in love than others!! (Please note that no judgement has been made here about you! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Just for the record, I'm not pro-abortion.

Blessings

FQ

PS: I am not making any assumptions this ar just my views on the topic not necessarily the whole thread.

[fifiqueen]

Bonnie,

I agree with you that there are people out there who use abortion as contraception. Some don't know any better and others do.

I believe that it is far too easy to abort and I also believe that being able to abort so late in a pregnancy is outrageous. And yet there are some circumstances that would put my faith to the test if I found myself there. It's not an easy road.

God loves the unborn child just like he loves you and me. I thank him for his forgiveness and try and treat my little ones as precious gifts for him.

To have experienced both abortion and miscarriage have been painful experiences. The effects of both are soul destroying. For me it is not as simple as just giving women the choice to do whatever they want with their bodies as there are two other individuals involved, the father and the baby.

Even so Lord Jesus quickly come.

[fifiqueen]

Rosie,

You said something about the pro's and con's when counselling a young girl but it seems to be gone.

The pro's are not mine but they are most definitely the girls.. the pro's of not being pregnant and not having a baby to care for. They are con's at the same time!!

What I wanted to get across was that although I have my opinion and would state it, I would not enforce it. It is not my decision to make. There are pro's and con's to both sides. One thing I do know is that whether or not you choose to keep one's baby or not you will live with the consequences of your actions forever.

FQX

[bonnie]

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I believe that it is far too easy to abort and I also believe that being able to abort so late in a pregnancy is outrageous. And yet there are some circumstances that would put my faith to the test if I found myself there. It's not an easy road.(/quote)

I don't know if you have had the time to read ths entire lengthy thread. I got into this when the gymnastics really got going. I rarely if ever post here anymore but when something this important gets pulled everyway from Sun to make it biblical just goes against the grain.

Someone in a crisis pregnancy, wanted or not has many scary issues to consider. For me it was who would raise my eighteen month old, waiting for me to come home. Had I been older than 19 and had the maturity to realize fully the road I might be headed down, who knows what my decision would have been.

One thing I know for an absolute certainity, I would have never let them pull him out feet first up to his neck to put a scissors in the base of his brain. For any that give absolute and universal support of abortion this is what is being condoned. I don't care if it is 300 or 800 as the figures given.

(quote)God loves the unborn child just like he loves you and me. I thank him for his forgiveness and try and treat my little ones as precious gifts for him.(/quote)

This is a major difference in what has gone on here.

To you, no matter what happened in the past, no matter how scared you were, and the remorse and regret you have felt since, you understand that litle one was not just a "choice" like what dress to wear.

Nor do I see anything in what you say, trying to justify it by saying, "Well, there are to many unwanted kids anyway". "Or you did not want to be a baby making machine". MAJOR,MAJOR DIFFERENCE in the actions, even when regretted of a scared young woman and those trying to make the unbiblcal biblical.

Babies are as disposalable as unwanted kittens in the pound. Before we encourage any to take what is definetly a terminal action, we best be certain of what we are advocating, maybe this even requires a hands on, birds eye view of the guilt, pain and remorse felt by the mother we encouraged in her choice.

(quote)To have experienced both abortion and miscarriage have been painful experiences. The effects of both are soul destroying. For me it is not as simple as just giving women the choice to do whatever they want with their bodies as there are two other individuals involved, the father and the baby.(/quote)

Fathers and babies are not part of this. This is the premise that pro-choice acts on.

[Rosie]

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Rosie,

You said something about the pro's and con's when counselling a young girl but it seems to be gone.

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Yeah, I felt it might not be appropriate due to the emotions. I didn't want you to feel put on the spot. And I still don't. I'm just unsure I could be objective enough to counsel others. (I also had both an abortion and a miscarriage).

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The pro's are not mine but they are most definitely the girls.. the pro's of not being pregnant and not having a baby to care for. They are con's at the same time!!

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Knowing what you and David know now, after going through the experience, would you be able to recommend abortion to someone in a similar position?

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What I wanted to get across was that although I have my opinion and would state it, I would not enforce it. It is not my decision to make. There are pro's and con's to both sides. One thing I do know is that whether or not you choose to keep one's baby or not you will live with the consequences of your actions forever.

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Do you mean enforcement as in making all abortion illegal? I'm pretty hardcore pro-life, but that is my opinion for me if I was faced with an unwanted pregnancy. Of course circumstances vary for others.

What I'm trying to get to is the actual pro's of abortion, you say well the freedom from an unwanted pregnancy comes hand in hand with guilt and regret. One would wonder if the pro ever outweighs the con in the heart of those who have made or are yet to make the decision and live with it.

[fifiqueen]

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Knowing what you and David know now, after going through the experience, would you be able to recommend abortion to someone in a similar position?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Rosie, I never, ever promote abortion. Never have done, never will do (although you should never say never!!).

What I was saying was that the same things that some girls will see as pro's are also the cons. For me regardless of how one views abortion when one has gone through it, it has an emotional effect on you, although this may be hidden with an I don't care attitude it is still there. Sooner or later it comes to haunt you.

I have a friend who had had more than one abortion not only has it affected her mentally but physically, her ability to keep a baby in her womb has degraded. Again I have not said that I promote abortion, I have worked through the pro's and con's and stated my beliefs on the subject and offered my support regardless of the decision.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Do you mean enforcement as in making all abortion illegal? I'm pretty hardcore pro-life, but that is my opinion for me if I was faced with an unwanted pregnancy. Of course circumstances vary for others.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

No.. sorry I meant enforcing my views on the person and giving them ultimatums.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

What I'm trying to get to is the actual pro's of abortion, you say well the freedom from an unwanted pregnancy comes hand in hand with guilt and regret. One would wonder if the pro ever outweighs the con in the heart of those who have made or are yet to make the decision and live with it.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Rosie, I did say that these same pro's can be seen as con's. As I have mentioned before there are consequences to either action that are far reaching and not soon forgotten.

This does not mean that I condone abortion, please understand I have never advised anyone to have one!! Well apart from myself!

[Dr. Shane]

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I'll tell you why I had an abortion (for my sins).

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I too have a personal experience with abortion which happened before becoming a Christian. The church has provided a place for single pregnant women to go. Sister Tealeaves is one the Lord has called into just such a ministry - and there are thousands of others like her.

We must never base our faith on our personal experience. Rather we ought to only use the Word of God. Emotions are fine and play a large role in our lives. Yet we cannot base our faith on them.

I have never taken the position that women that have abortions are evil. I have said they murder their children (that is an undeniable fact - as painful as it might be). I have been involved with two women that aborted. In my experiences both women were talked into aborting by the Planned Parenthood clinics where they went. If these women were not scared when they entered the clinic, those working in the clinic made sure they got that way. There are many on the pro-choice bandwagon that want babies aborted because it furthers their political agenda. It should make the black community outraged to find out how many white men and women talk black women into aborting their babies. These pro-choice people take advantage of scared and confused girls. And after the abortion they leave the girl to fend for herself and fight of the demons which almost always come back to haunt her.

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Shane mentioned about going through adoption. For a woman who is scared adoption is not an option.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Adoption is always an option unless the mother's health is in danger. The issue is that many of these single mothers go to pro-choice clinics where the people there scare them into aborting. It is quite the contrast to the Christian pregnancy crisis centers like the one Sister Teasleaves volunteers in.

Just because we feel sorry for these scared and confused girls does not mean we make murder legal. That is the bottem line. Yes we can feel for them but we cannot forget the innocent life of the unborn child. It is not the unborn child's fault that his or her mother is scared and confused.

[Dr. Shane]

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It has reinforce my privately held belief that those who have the most "black and white" approach to abortion are often male

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Let's be fair. Males tend to have a "black and white" approach to many things more so than women. That includes what clothing to wear and what to eat for dinner. Women tend to make emotion-based decisions more which tend not to use the "black and white" approach.

[Dr. Shane]

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I have nothing but respect for the woman that placed her child in a loving home, I myself could not have done so .

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I once worked with a young lady that was attending a Lutheran Bible school when she became pregnant out of wedlock. She was pregnant when we worked together. She made arrangements to give the child up for adoption and the adoptive parents paid for her housing and medical bills.

There are few people I have met in my life that I have had such respect for. She was a born-again Christain without a doubt. She loved Jesus and everyone that knew her knew that. She sinned. She made a mistake. And she decided to do the responsible thing which meant nine months of inconvience for her and being expelled from the Bible college. But she saw it as her cross to bear.

[bonnie]

I can't imagine being able to do so. It must be one of the biggest scarifices ever made.

Babies deserve both mother and father whenever possible. No matter how good of a mother, I cannot be a good father.

Even tho I would have had the support of my parents and been able to live at home, I would still have been a single parent. Babies need and deserve both.

Biological mothers that can give the baby both thru extreme sacrifice are a very special group.

[Rosie]

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Knowing what you and David know now, after going through the experience, would you be able to recommend abortion to someone in a similar position?

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Rosie, I never, ever promote abortion. Never have done, never will do (although you should never say never!!).

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It never entered my mind that you promoted abortion, I hope you don't think that.

The only reason I asked if you could be objective and recommend abortion to someone else in a similar situation, is because I know couldn't be unbiased or impartial if someone asked me for my input or opinion, knowing what I went through in my own experience.

[Rosie]

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I have been involved with two women that aborted. In my experiences both women were talked into aborting by the Planned Parenthood clinics where they went.

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Yeah, what is unfortunate that these clinics will even resort to lying to younger girls. What they have done may hit harder and become clearer when these girls become older and wiser. Or when they marry and conceive a wanted child and learn that the unwanted child was way more than the "blob" the clinic said "it" was.

[Peter]

Here is some current court decisions on abortion.

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Judge Stops Partial-Birth Abortion Ban

By LARRY NEUMEISTER

NEW YORK (AP) - A federal judge declared the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act unconstitutional Thursday in the second such ruling in three months - even though he called the procedure ``gruesome, brutal, barbaric and uncivilized.''

U.S. District Judge Richard C. Casey - one of three federal judges across the country to hear simultaneous challenges to the law earlier this year - faulted the ban for not containing an exception to protect a woman's health, something the Supreme Court has made clear is required in laws prohibiting particular types of abortion.

The law, signed last November, banned a procedure known to doctors as intact dilation and extraction and called partial-birth abortion by abortion foes. The fetus is partially removed from the womb, and the skull is punctured or crushed.

Louise Melling, director of the ACLU's Reproductive Freedom Project, said her group was thrilled by the ruling.

``We can only hope as we have decision after decision after decision striking these bans, saying they endanger women's health, that the legislatures will finally stop,'' she said.

On June 1, U.S. District Judge Phyllis Hamilton in San Francisco also found the law unconstitutional, saying it violates a woman's right to choose an abortion. A judge in Lincoln, Neb., has yet to rule. The three judges suspended the ban while they held the trials.

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As I have said before the Supreme Court has ruled that when a law does not provide for an abortion in cases to save the mothers life it is unconstitutional. The lawmakers know this. It is obvious to me they are making laws that they know full well will not stand the test of the courts. It is as if they are saying.

"See we made the law but the courts threw it out. So sorry but we tried."

[Robert]

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I have never taken the position that women that have abortions are evil. I have said they murder their children (that is an undeniable fact - as painful as it might be).

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Isn't that a contradiction? Isn't "murder" evil? In Matt 7:9 we see the following: "What man is there among you, when his son shall ask him for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10 “Or if he shall ask for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11 “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

My point is that "evil" is not limited to certain sins. We are all evil in the eyes of the spirit of God's law. However, that does not deny growth, and that growth should include Christian women ceasing from abortion as birth control.

[David_McQueen]

My last point on this subject is that in my walk with Christ I have come to learn that each and every life experience is different, and whether we like to admit or not, much of our own experiences shape the way we think and respond to others.

Abortion is a very sensitive issue for those who have either indirectly or directly been affected by it. I have found that through our own experience coupled with our faith in God our approach has provided support to many, who like ourselves, knew not where to turn.

A life was taken, call it murder or whatever adverb you will, and as a party to that much reconciliation had to be made with God. Having moved on from there the strength for me comes more in being there for others who need a non-judgemental person to listen first and then share with them all the circumstances that can arise in such a scenario, and basically to be there for them no matter what decision they take.

I find that so much more rewarding in my walk than arguing for pros and cons with people. But then that's just my walk. Jesus knows.