Neil D Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 With all the news about corruption, do you ever get the feeling that nothing can be done to clean up politics? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 I came to that conclusion after Clinton. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 4, 2007 Moderators Share Posted July 4, 2007 Heh, well *that* response was a huge surprise! I think humans are the problem with politics (as they are with most things). Get rid of all the humans in politics and you'd sort out the corruption in a hurry. Failing that... we just have to live with it (and by that I mean root it out wherever we find it, not embrace it) as long as sin still holds sway in the world. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 Good question. I am pretty disillusioned with politics anymore, and it sounds like many of us are. I can't remember when our country has been this polarized. Maybe my memory is bad... olger Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 CLINTON Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 4, 2007 Author Share Posted July 4, 2007 CLINTON Clinton was a popular president, unlike the current adminstration. He was truely working for the masses, but personally, he flopped. I think the current calls for impeachment are a reaction to what the Clinton adminstration went thru. Personally, I think Cheney would be worse for the Presidency than the man we currently have. 2008 can't get here fast enough in my opinion... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 I will have to remember this ... committing a felony while in office is a personal matter. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 4, 2007 Author Share Posted July 4, 2007 I will have to remember this ... committing a felony while in office is a personal matter. Let's see, personal indescression results in lying about it, and [because your president] attempting obstruct the investigation to save his marriage is as offensive as lying to the public [because your president]to lead them into a war. Which one seems more impeachable???? Ah, never mind... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 My goodness. The president is the Chief Law enforcement officer of our land. If HE thinks he can lie to our judicial system for ANY reason ... he does not belong in office. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 CLINTON Yeah, we weren't too proud of Bill in our farming community. Guess we still aren't. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted July 4, 2007 Author Share Posted July 4, 2007 My goodness. The president is the Chief Law enforcement officer of our land. If HE thinks he can lie to our judicial system for ANY reason ... he does not belong in office. So, just to clarify my understanding of your position , when the judicial system convicts a felon, and the president commutes the sentence of his vice president's chief of staff, thus bypassing the system, you are incensed over it, correct? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 4, 2007 Share Posted July 4, 2007 That is NOT bypassing the system. It is a PART of the system. ALL presidents have done that. Clinton was world famous for pardoning all kinds of horrible crimes of individuals who had connections within HIS admin. It is all legal. Even what Clinton did. It may not be moral or right. But it is part of our system. Putting a serial rapist on the streets again so he can hurt others may not be moral. But he did it legally. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Quote: Let's see, personal indescression results in lying about it Let's see. 1. Governor exposes himself and asks for oral favors from a subordinate. 2. Subordinate refuses so he reminds her he is governor so she better not tell anyone about what happened (or didn't) 3. Governor becomes President 4. Sexually harassed victim sues former Governor/sitting President. 5. Sitting President, now having an affair with an intern, lies under oath about affair in order to hide a pattern of behavior. 6. Sitting President bribes others to lie under oath in order to hide a pattern of behavior. 7. Current President uses the Secret Service in order to hide a pattern of behavior. What we have is perjury and obstruction of justice. Clinton didn't want Paula Jones to have a fair case against him in court. He wanted to hide evidence that was not favorable to him. He was disbarred for his conduct for a year and cited with contempt of court. The issue was really about Paula Jones, not Monica Lewinsky. The Left wanted to focus on Monica Lewinsky so they could call it a "personal" matter. It was about sexual harassment of Paula Jones and attempts to cover up a pattern of behavior that would have helped Paula Jones in her effort to get justice. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 5, 2007 Moderators Share Posted July 5, 2007 Well, I guess the fact that this thread derailed almost instantly into a bunfight about Clinton does kinda make me wonder about politics, yeah... Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 5, 2007 Moderators Share Posted July 5, 2007 1. The original question definitely did not say 'Republican corruption', it just talked about corruption in government and politics generally. Interesting the assumptions that were immediately made. 2. What Clinton did was wrong. We get that, really. Those who know me well know I'm the last person who would condone a man betraying his wife. What we're not so clear on, from a moral perspective, is for how long does Clinton's wrong-doing continue to make it OK for others to do wrong? Be nice if it was only a decade, 'cos that would mean we were getting close to the point where it's necessary for people in public life to do right again. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Hi Bravus. The Bible says that he who sins sexually--his reproach will not be blotted out (Proverbs 6:32-33). In our country, if I mention the names Swaggert and Baker, guess what people think of right away? When it is the leader of a country, another consequence is how it affects the people of the country. You would be amazed at how many young people justify that type of immorality as "not sex" in the wake of Clinton's failures. Had he repented & acknowledged his sin, many would have been blessed, But by justifying his sin he strengthened iniquity in the hearts of millions. I don't believe it will ever just "pass away." Whether in 10-years, or 100 if time lasts that long. all the best, og Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 5, 2007 Moderators Share Posted July 5, 2007 Agreed, agreed... but that was not my point. I don't mean his sin will disappear, or its consequences. But what is happening is that any time someone *else* is caught sinning, they are taking his sin as cause to not repent either. It seems as though Clinton's sin is being used as an excuse. All I want is to see each person take responsibility for their own actions, rather than point to Slick Willy. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Gotcha.. You are correct, Sir. How's life down under? og Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 5, 2007 Moderators Share Posted July 5, 2007 Most excellent. I'm not down under right now, though... I'm in Rhode Island at a conference until tomorrow. I had applied for a job, and kinda been in limbo for months. Found out yesterday I didn't get it, which was mildly disappointing but at least meant I know have some certainty. And all is super-well with the family and life in general. Hope the same is true for you. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 BRAVUS FOR PRESIDENT!!! Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 President of WHAT ? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 You must not have been paying attention at the time. Actually, Clinton repeatedly excused his perjury by saying, "Everybody does it. All politicians do it." We had news stories about Thomas Jefferson, nearly 200 years earlier. So if you're concerned about 'how long' it justifies something, then start with Clinton's main defense. Repeatedly, he appealed to cynicism, "They're all crooked, I just got caught," as his defense. I remember hearing him say that, and hearing people in a restaurant near me echo it. Wow. How classy. Smearing nearly 40 honorable men to let one miscreant off the hook. And at least Clinton was guilty of what he was accused of. Scooter Libby was convicted for what Richard Armitage did! Libby's main offense, according to the prosecution, was disagreeing with Tim Russert over whether or not Russert told him. On deposition, Russert didn't think so. But in trial testimony, Russert became certain. And no, you don't get that. Really. Because it was not about betrayal of his wife. In his famous apology, he said, "It was wrong, but it was private." Private huh? None of it occurred in the residence area of the White HOuse. All of it occurred in the office area. ANY CEO of any corporation who had done the same thing at his place of business and discovered would have been fired, for (legitimate) fear of lawsuits. The company would likely have been sued anyway, and th CEO convicted of sexual harrassment AT LEAST. One can only imagine the contempt a judge would have expressed if the CEO said, "It was private." No, it was not 'about sex.' That was the smokescreen to keep him from being removed from office. It was about perjury, about denying someone from the lower class justice. And how did the self-proclaimed compassionate Clinton team respond to this poor person's cry for a day in court? By saying, "It's amazing what you can get when you drag a hundred dollar bill through a trailer court." And Clinton's supporters didn't reply with outrage at such an insulting remark, they endorsed it! Did you get all that, really? When asked about the Lewinsky business on the TODAY show, Hillary famously blamed, the "vast, right-wing conspiracy" and claimed there was no substance to it. When proven wrong, did she apologize for this scurrilous accusation? No. Did you get all that, really? When Clinton lied, no one died. Oh, well, tell that to half a million Rwandans. "There are episodes of genocide in Rwanda, but it is not genocide." Right. Did you get all that, really? This is not even about politics. It's about moral equivocation. Perjury becomes extramarital sex, and extramarital sex becomes normal--"Everyone lies about sex." Mistakes become murder, terrorists become freedom fighters, Yasser Arafat wins the peace prize. Deliberate murder of children becomes 'frustration,' theft becomes compassion. The politics of this are by far the least of my concerns. In fact, most of this has nothing at all to do with politics. It has political consequences, political implications, but it is not political at the core. The moral inversion enveloping so many in the church disturbs me. Manufacturing wrongdoing where none exist, and excusing the most horrific terrorism has become so common in the name of 'peace' that I tremble for my church. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 5, 2007 Share Posted July 5, 2007 Quote: Private huh? None of it occurred in the residence area of the White HOuse. All of it occurred in the office area. Thank you ED ... well said. It amazes me that people can say it was "private". Put it this way ... MY tax dollars PAID for HIM to have SEX. It was in the "office" of the President on tax payers time in the tax payers building. And it was "private" ? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted July 5, 2007 Moderators Share Posted July 5, 2007 Simple question: accept as fact every single thing Ed D said above. Does it excuse a politician now who lies or accepts bribes? Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted July 5, 2007 Moderators Share Posted July 5, 2007 The moral inversion enveloping so many in the church disturbs me. Manufacturing wrongdoing where none exist Out of interest, can u give some examples? Quote: and excusing the most horrific terrorism has become so common in the name of 'peace' that I tremble for my church. Out of interest, can u give some examples? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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