My Family

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Those of you who've read my previous posts or PM'd with me know about things in my family. All hell broke loose tonight, mom and I are going to start counseling soon - I've already emailed my counselor to make arrangements for mom and I to see her either together or separately.

The main issues are:

1. Abuse from my parents, and their denial of personal responsibility in it, and their blaming me for it.

2. My need for them to really love me, stop expecting me to be perfect, stop wanting me to do things for them that they can do for themselves.

3. My self esteem. I really don't have much of one, outside of my Knowing God's Love for me.

4. All of this has been used against me as the reasons for why I'm not "marriage-worthy," because I'm not naturally trusting and forgiving enough. It takes real work on my part for both to happen, whereas with some other more "privileged" women out there, who've come from good homes and have had more chances in life to enjoy it and really live it: they are just much more attractive than I am, even to "forgiving" men. This rips me apart inside, to the point where I can't take it anymore, and I've just really begun to crack, lash out, etc. It's like it's my "fault" for being the way I am (that whole "personal responsibility" thing), but it's not, because I wasn't raised right to begin with. Now I'm paying the price for being the victim of abuse and for not having been taught in the first place how to trust (or even know who I can trust), or how to forgive any and everything. I wasn't taught how to love others, either. And that's being held against me as well.

All of these will be discussed in counseling. Sure, I could use a sympathetic ear. Probably more than that, some good, sound, God's-Love based advice (please don't throw a lot of texts or quotes at me, ok? I'm really just not in the mood to go looking a lot of stuff up or trying to use any brain cells at all right now), but most of all, I need to ask for prayer. Lots of it. Especially regarding #4. It's just so unfair, cruel... And I've gotten to a place where I could forgive any man who has previously made the mistake of holding these things against me. We all make mistakes. Of all people, I'm well aware of that.

Right now, I'm working on transferring that willingness to forgive men who've judged me unfairly to forgiving my parents for abusing me all these years. They've been so unfair: expecting me to love and trust and forgive them under those circumstances. But I can't take knowing that this is destroying my life. That I'm unchoosable because no one has chosen to really, truly love me passionately and openly, nor to allow me to do the same with them. It hurts so bad I can't even think straight about it anymore. I cry so hard over it that I literally howl. And I don't know how to stop crying - at least not for good. It comes and goes in spells, but it never really ends. My heart just can't take this anymore.

Also, I don't only ask this for me. But for every abused woman out there. Some are single. Some are single moms. Some are married, with or without kids. Some are teenagers, others are 4 years old. Look out for those kids: they're usually the ones who can't remember their memory verses yet their moms insist that they "worked" with them over and over on them. "Worked." More like tried to shove that "exercise" down their throats along with their broccoli.

These are the little girls who aren't allowed to be kids: to get "dirty," etc. Perfection of them is required, and their moms are embarrassed of any little mistake on their parts. And openly express that. Or like to say, "Oh, don't mind her, she's just a brat/difficult child," or "she's just having a bad day." Both statements are comparing the child to some standard of perfection and then pointing out some fault in the child. Those moms are abusers who've been abused themselves as children. They need love and hugs, but also being told what God's Forgiving Love is really all about, and how they can apply it to their relationships with their daughters. Yes, it's abusive to use perfection as a weapon against your own child. It has to be. Or else what my mom said tonight is very true, that "there's something wrong inside (my) brain." In any case, that's what I was put through not just by her, but also by her mother, and some other women I knew as a small girl in Sabbath School. The problem is not that this happened in the past. The problem is that it killed my self-esteem and it never recovered because this sort of thing just kept happening to me, and quite frankly, for the most part, has never really stopped. I can't take this anymore.

Please pray, in complete Faith, and don't stop praying or Trusting. Thank you.

[Clio]

I will be praying.

Clio

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Thank you. This is so totally needed. I've been afraid to go out into the main house today just to get food to eat. I'm not all that hungry anyway. It's like I don't know what to do anymore, or how to feel.

[Clio]

CG4E -

I understand how hard it is to "know" how to feel when you've been emotionally abused.

Our emotions are not supposed to be a curse. They are a gift, one which allows us to receive Abba's love for us and return it to Him full measure, magnified by our emotions. When those we care about, and who should be caring for us, protecting us, and teaching us, abuse this gift it is exquisitely painful. Moreso, I think, because we instinctively know this is a gift that is supposed to bring us safety and joy, making the pain when it's abused even worse.

You might find Isaiah 54 helpful...

Clio

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

COG4E, Having been in somewhat similar circumstances, I can only empathize and pray for you and with you. You sound like you're at the end of your rope.

I hardly ever quote scripture, but I'm going to this time.

Quote:

..like an eagle that stirs up its nest and hovers over its young, that spreads its wings to catch them and carries them on its pinions. Deuteronomy 32:11 NIV

An eagle's nest is built high. They make it of briars and sharp twigs and other scratchy materials. Then they line it with soft feathers and moss. When it comes time for the little eaglet to learn to fly, the mama (or papa) eagle stirs up the inside of the nest so that the sharp briars and stickery things are in the nest instead of the nice soft bed. The eaglet doesn't like that. The parent eagle then nudges the eaglet up and over the nest. The eaglet has no experience in flight... so she flaps her wings, but drops like lead. But the mama bird is watching. Before the eaglet can hit ground, she swoops underneath the eaglet and bears her up on her shoulders where the pinion feathers are. The eaglet grabs hold of those pinion feathers and the mama and eaglet fly waaayyy up high again. Then the mama eagle makes a sudden shift in movement and the eaglet falls off again...flapping its wings...falling downward once more. The mama eagle AGAIN flys low beneath the eaglet before she hits ground and catches her, and again they soar up high with the eaglet holding tight to those pinions.. And once more the mama eagle makes a sharp turn and the eaglet falls off. But this time, she's sort of getting the idea of flapping the wings, noticing air currents, and instead of falling straight towards the ground, she begins the flight upward.

That is my wish and prayer for you. That even though everything looks bleak and you feel like you're going to crash and burn any second, God will swoop down and bear you up on HIS shoulders......for you to hold on to His pinions.... and to keep at it until, yes! You have learned to fly and soar with the eagles. You will, y'know...

[Clio]

*whispers* .... and so will/have you too.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

*whispers* .... and so will/have you too.

I don't know Clio.....having been alluded to elsewhere on the forum today as the Handiwork of Satan by someone who ostensibly knows all about spiritual things, perhaps God does not care about me...what with being in league with the devil and all.

[Jasmine]

I understand your pain. I will lift you up in prayer. God loves you so much. He is going to come through for you.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Child of God 4ever,

I just read your post and can see that you are hurting a lot. I am so sorry that you have to go through this. I have gone through some serious pain in my life too. Times when I could do nothing but cry. Times when I cried out, "I just want someone to love me!!!" Times when I was so hurt that I could not stand it. I was so depressed during those days.

I know the pain, although it did come the same way, it came from the same source. It's hard to get people to understand, in fact, some never will. They tell you to "just get over it," ya right; if I could do that don't ya think I would have already!!!

We do some strange things at times when we hurt like that I and my hope for you is that you don't do anything to hurt yourself. I know you can make it through this and when you do, you will be so much better for it, even though it may not be something you've caused.

If I could give you some advice (and it will sound strange) this is what it is: take upon yourself all of the blame that you can, but!!! seriously look at what is being said and see if it holds any truth. By doing that you can come though this and know that you have done all that you could without running away from possible pain and you will have no doubt as to what is true and what is not. Then when you know the truth, (for example you may find that there is some validity to one of their accusations) then, you can work to change that trait and it will be healing to you all.

I did this and found that a lot of what I was going through was caused by how I reacted to the abuse I went through as a child and as an adult. I had created a method of thinking and behavior that was actually protecting me from getting hurt but was harming me socially and in relationships. So I accepted my part and was able to make certain changes and was no longer afraid and no longer a slave to that thinking and behavior which, it turns out, was self destructive.

Please do not think that I am saying "it's your fault that all this is going on" but rather to objectively look at this for your own well being. I know you may not be able to do this or you may not understand this now, but print it up and save it for later when it may be of benefit to you. Pain sometimes keeps us from seeing things.

Norman

[Denise]

ChildOfGod4Ever,

When I read this, I knew you were in pain, and my heart ached for you. I understand what you wrote, for I have gone through pain similar in my life too. You have asked for prayer, that I will do......I know God will help you, as He has helped me. Try not to be discouraged, I know it's hard now.....I had to really cling to Jesus, because He was the only one that understood completely.....my prayers are for you...God Bless you. Denise

[Jeannieb43]

Those of you who've read my previous posts or PM'd with me know about things in my family. All hell broke loose tonight...

The main issues are:

1. Abuse from my parents, and their denial of personal responsibility in it, and their blaming me for it.

2. My need for them to really love me, stop expecting me to be perfect, stop wanting me to do things for them that they can do for themselves.

3. My self esteem. I really don't have much of one, outside of my Knowing God's Love for me.

4. All of this has been used against me as the reasons for why I'm not "marriage-worthy," because I'm not naturally trusting and forgiving enough. I'm working on transferring that willingness to forgive men who've judged me unfairly to forgiving my parents for abusing me all these years. They've been so unfair: expecting me to love and trust and forgive them under those circumstances. But I can't take knowing that this is destroying my life. That I'm unchoosable because no one has chosen to really, truly love me passionately and openly, nor to allow me to do the same with them. It hurts so bad I can't even think straight about it anymore. I cry so hard over it that I literally howl. And I don't know how to stop crying - at least not for good. It comes and goes in spells, but it never really ends. My heart just can't take this anymore.

Dear Child of God,

I'm so sorry about your situation. Please know you have friends here. I'll be praying for you tonight and every night. God is so wonderful. He already knows what you need, even before you express it to Him in words. And chances are, He already has your future life all lined up waiting for you to be ready to enjoy it.

May I make just one comment [based on my viewpoint of 'threescore years and ten']?

I felt the exact same way as you do now, when I was in my late teens and early twenties. I was SO lonely. I wanted SO badly to be married, to have someone love me, to have a child of my own, etc., etc. I used to pray and pray for these things! IMHO, that's a normal, natural longing every young woman has. That's our natural, "nesting" impulse, placed in us by the Creator. But in our contemporary culture, often there's no appropriate manner or method for a girl to be married at that particular age. The men aren't ready then, or we don't meet them then, or whatever. -- And this happens to ALL girls, not just those from abusive homes.

But now, looking back, I realize that had I married any of the men with whom I was acquainted at that age, I would have made a terrible mistake. I didn't know myself; I didn't know how to love another person properly; I didn't have enough self-esteem to "hold my own" in life. So it's a blessing my prayers were not answered just then.

It takes a lot of living and maturing to make us into persons who can run a home properly, and raise children properly. And thinking about others rather than ourselves is the best way to begin that maturation process.

The best way to increase one's self-esteem is to lead others. I've seen it happen. If you start teaching a Sabbath school class of teenagers or pre-teens, and become actually a friend and a role model for those youngsters, it begins to force you to think not of yourself but of someone else. Thinking and leading other people is the best way to grow! You have a skill you can pass along to them [bible study, map reading, even crocheting or swimming, for example] and they will be looking to YOU for leadership. This immediately forces you to stop worrying about why people aren't treating YOU right; it immediately makes you IMPORTANT to those young people, at least for that hour or two each week.

If you look at your list [Numbers 1 - 4], each one centers on wishing others would start treating you right. Best thing is to stop thinking of ourselves, and start concentrating on how to help others. I've seen it (in my own family), when my Ex used to verbally abuse my #1 Son so terribly, and show favoritism to #2 Son continually; it just broke my heart. But #1 Son has somehow been able to rise above it, and now today, when he's in his late 40s, he's able to relate to that abusive father on a man-to-man level. He doesn't grovel at his feet; he doesn't ask anything of him, nor does he get anything from him [that father hasn't changed]. But Son does not let it bring him down. He has become a successful professional man and he is doing his own things; and occasionally he talks to his father but doesn't expect to receive anything from him, so is never disappointed.

If we don't build up hopes, then we won't be disappointed.

I don't know how old you are, but perhaps it'd be healthier for you to move out of the home and establish yourself somewhere away from where the parents can hurt you.

Also, it's better for a person [male or female] to be living on his/her own, working and earning his/her own living, for several years before marrying. We need to develop our own strengths, on our own, and the ability to pay our own bills, etc., before we try to find a person to marry. We then become truly mature individuals, able to live alone successfully, not needy persons needing rescuing. The more power you hand over to another person [parent or spouse], the less power you have in return. The person who loves least in a relationship has the most power. So keep your balance, keep your equilibrium about living life alone; and soon you'll be a great "catch" for a man and you'll even be able to judge whether HE meets YOUR requirements before deciding to marry.

Oh dear, I always run on too long. I always feel a need to lend a hand, so to speak. [i used to be a teacher, and it shows!]

My dear late husband used to say, "Jeannie will give advice on ANY subject!" He said it kindly, but I know I tend to "mother" people who don't really need my advice.

Please know God has you in His sights. This period of your life will soon become just like a bad dream in your past. Don't expect a "knight to come riding" to save you out of your situation; but just keep on being the very best you can be--and one day you'll find a wonderful mate, in a place you never expected to find him.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Thank you. Everyone. :grouphug4:

Things haven't changed much around here, excepting for two things. For one, well, here's a quote from an email I sent my best friend this evening:

Quote:

LS

I'm choosing to forgive my parents and everyone else who's ever hurt me, and be nice to them. To me, that's what love is, I guess. I don't trust them to love me actively, to show me genuine affection, because I don't believe they have that for me, true, but also that they don't have that to begin with as human beings (they are too "utilitarian" for that). I'm just choosing to look at them as people who mean well, and stop holding how they've screwed my whole life up, and my whole former understanding of God, over their heads. I'm choosing to just accept the life that I've been left with as a result of their affect on it and on me as a person, and know that there might be brighter days ahead, or maybe not, and either way it doesn't matter. It's not worth it to hold all of this over their heads. It's pointless.

There is no way they could pay back the debt they "owe" me over this, not only because legistically, it's impossible, but also because, as people, they're incapable of even seeing what they've done to me. They see the external stuff, and get angry and blame me for it, but they don't see why I've been the way I've been, and that they've had everything to do with it because of how they raised me. So, I'm breaking with their ways, and forgiving them for it all and choosing not to be angry about it anymore. It's the only way I know how to pick up the remaining pieces of my life and move forward.

I'm choosing also to take this attitude with everyone else I've been angry with for whatever reason. To just put people above their mistakes and hurtful/unfair/uncaring words/deeds and keep loving them. Because I do love those that I love, like those that I like, and that doesn't change. This isn't about being stupid or easy. It's about putting others first, and about understanding why 70x7 isn't a translational miscalculation. I can't help wanting everything in life that I want, but I can help it that legalism has taken it all from me. I don't want to be that way anymore. Even if others still choose to be that way toward me. I'm done having a reason to blame myself for all my losses, because I wasn't "good" enough or "forgiving" enough or whatever.

This Love is my Purity. No one can take it from me, because it is who I am.

LS

I feel like I've cracked some major Biblical code or something. Funny thing is, this is exactly what my best friend has modeled for me the whole time I've known him. I just couldn't see it because I was in so much pain.

As for taking the blame... I'm not responsible for that which I didn't cause. I also don't take responsibility for that which I wasn't taught as a child/teen/college student in "the system" or at home. I don't find my value in changing myself, either - I no longer believe in the "change yourself" attitude because I can't change myself, nor should I - I am God's to begin with. The above email is one that came from the epiphany I had tonight as I stood out by the rows of corn planted in the back yard, stared at my house, thought of my family vs. my friends. My family lives with me because they at least value my physical life. My friends don't want to live with me because they can't handle that much of my emotional life. I'm enough of a handful on a "once in awhile" basis. Yet I do know that my friends love me. And my being "high maintainance" has had to do with this whole problem with my family. Which I hope I am finding my way out of.

I've lost a lot in several friendships with people because I was angry with my parents, so my friends didn't trust me. And what did my being angry last night accomplish? Nothing. My parents are devoid of caring at all about any of this. So I'm the only one getting hurt by validating anything they did to me at all. And I'm losing out on whatever time I have left to show them that they are more valuable as people than all the huge mistakes they've made in "parenting" me by dropping me out of the nest ever since I was a tot, without catching me on the way down, and actually expecting me to learn to fly that way...

Anyway, choosing to put my parents above their mistakes isn't a way of changing myself. I will always be me, no matter how many hoops I jump through, or how hard I try. But it is a Realization of God's Calling to me. There is little I can say or do to change things between my parents and me: we are just on two different tracks in life. But I can still put their value above their mistakes, and I can still be nice to them in general.

Also, I want to say here that, rudywoofs, your post was exactly what I needed to hear - with the "end of your rope" part and the whole eagle analogy. If you are who I think you are, well, I guess I had it coming... *Grins her first grin in days* Either way, you know something: that was so profound and prophetic it's just not even funny. I encourage you to continue Listening to your heart, and staying true to it.

Also, please don't worry - I took the eagle analogy in the way it was intended. I agree completely, that God has been doing this, in regards to the Understanding of Forgiveness and just how necessary it really is for Sanity. What would the Kingdom be without it? What would it be like if all we had were rules and punishments, and no ability to Understand that we're all limited in our humanity, and that we have to be willing to let each other be who we are, even when that includes the hurtful sides of each of us?

To each of you, thank you so much for posting the Love that you have. I've needed to know that I'm not alone. I had no idea that so many others had gone through practically the exact same thing. It's confusing and frustrating, isn't it? Yet the truth is, the only way out is through the Door, the Narrow Gate, our Savior and what He did for us - that He's been Showing us how to do for each other and our families and friends. Against Forgiveness, there is no Law.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

I will be praying.

Clio

Thank you, Clio. You've been very encouraging to me, praying for me as you have. It helps to know that God Hears our prayers, and does all He can do to affect change where it can be made.

And you know, I think I see you soaring! It's beautiful to watch, and very comforting.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

I understand your pain. I will lift you up in prayer. God loves you so much. He is going to come through for you.

Thank you sweets I love your name! You make me smile

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Please know God has you in His sights. This period of your life will soon become just like a bad dream in your past. Don't expect a "knight to come riding" to save you out of your situation; but just keep on being the very best you can be--and one day you'll find a wonderful mate, in a place you never expected to find him.

Thank you for your encouragement. I PMed you about the whole "knight in shining armor" thing.

Just to let everyone here know: I'm not at all expecting that, or looking for it. In fact, I've come about as near to having had it with men as I care to get. Lovely race, in their own right, but when I can't even be forgiven by "forgiving" men for not always knowing how to trust or forgive because I was abused... It's just exhausting and heartbreaking, and I've had enough of it. All you parents out there would do well to stop warning your kids about "marrying the child of divorce or bad marriage." You'd do better to arm your own kids with knowing how to love, trust, and most importantly, really forgive - anyone, including those who don't know how to forgive. Because the truth is, even children of "healthy" marriages aren't perfect, and sometimes are the ones who are the most love-expecting and least love-giving of all, because they're so used to being coddled by mommy and daddy And that has to be forgiven too. I just wish we'd stop making rules for avoiding "bad" people, and instead, learn how to deal with human beings, from all walks of life.

Also, I'm in my early 30s, and have previously lived alone. I PMed you the details on that too.

One other note is that I really do believe that, if there were a good man out there who loved me, he wouldn't mind my wanting him to love me! It's only men who don't already love me who don't want me to want them to love me, nor do they want my love. Because they are unloving men, or just aren't attracted to me. The way I see it is this: when a man shows me Real Love, when he has no expectations of me whatsoever, when he wants me to be his wife, I'll know that I'm Loved. But please understand that I don't go looking for this, I don't ask for it...

I just trust that when it's real, it will be given to me because he wants to - if that ever happens at all, which really, I don't imagine anymore that it will, or hope for it. Not after some of the things I've been through. Honestly, I'm more likely to find an all-loving man in a bar than in church, because of our "Christian Standards" etc. Once you make those rules for people, it becomes a matter of exclusion rather than inclusion. There's nothing wrong with giving an honest woman a chance, if you already know that you see something in her you'd like to have.

What's wrong is when you bar that same woman, who sees something in you that she wants in her husband, based on some silly set of rules that in the end don't mean anything at all other than personal pride/ego being stroked out in the church foyer for having married such a "virtuous" woman (who lived up to your rules for who your wife has to be, etc). The problem with that is that, all she has to do is mess up in that once, even in being unforgiving or untrusting, or in some other area of life, and then she's out: you'll be disappointed in her, you won't like her, you won't treat her right, you won't forgive her... Because you have your rules, and darn it, you must adhere to them, because you want to marry the "perfect" woman. Etc. It's just sick and psychotic. It's better to be forgiving, be perhaps even a little flexible, talk things out with a woman you find attractive rather than just giving her the ax based on some silly set of rules that keep you from having a great relationship with her...

Can you all see why I'm rather disinterested at the moment in the idea of marrying anyone at all? After all, I wouldn't be marrying a man: I'd be marrying a rule-book. Funny. I used to think God was a Rule Book. Glad to know that's not really true, that He's a Person, has a Heart, and Loves me more than all of my personal character flaws. Sure, He Guides me out of them, slowly, but He doesn't just give me the ax. I used to think He had already done that.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

CG4E -

I understand how hard it is to "know" how to feel when you've been emotionally abused.

Our emotions are not supposed to be a curse. They are a gift, one which allows us to receive Abba's love for us and return it to Him full measure, magnified by our emotions. When those we care about, and who should be caring for us, protecting us, and teaching us, abuse this gift it is exquisitely painful. Moreso, I think, because we instinctively know this is a gift that is supposed to bring us safety and joy, making the pain when it's abused even worse.

You might find Isaiah 54 helpful...

Clio

Thank you so much for this. Thank you for knowing that it's a good thing to have the need to be loved by trustworthy parents, and that it's normal to hurt when they aren't like that to you.

I'm sorry you (and others here) have been abused as well. I said before that I'm glad I'm not alone. Um, I'll rephrase that. I'm glad we're together, but I wish that none of us had gone through anything like this. It cuts right to the bone, doesn't it? It's like you know what's "right" to do, but you can't because you're stuck living with these people who just keep pounding at you well after there's nothing left of you anyway... And then you get told at church that you have to let that be "ok" by forgiving and forgetting - when you're just a little kid!

Honestly, I think we need to set up a system where Gospel (Salvation through Grace) minded people are elected in each church to be "mom" figures for the littlest ones to go to, and who can also encourage "church moms" to be more "Gospel Minded" towards their kids who can't possibly have perfection or anything close to it expected of them, just because they aren't in diapers anymore - even at "age appropriate" levels. It's time we allowed kids to be just that: kids, even when that means that they aren't so "wonderful" all the time. Sure, they need guidance, but also forgiveness that lets them have another try at it, rather than punishments that only discourage them from having any hope at all of being good enough as little people inside to succeed at anything. And I think the same "rule" should be applied to the teens and adults, rather than grace-less rebuke and threats and punishments and the like, just because they do things that aren't so "Kosher" all the time. I just really feel like we've got to stop expecting perfection out of everyone: including ourselves.

I know I do.

Anyway, thank you Clio. You're encouragement goes miles and light-years above and beyond. My spirit resounds with yours.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Hi Child of God 4ever,

I just read your post and can see that you are hurting a lot. I am so sorry that you have to go through this. I have gone through some serious pain in my life too. Times when I could do nothing but cry. Times when I cried out, "I just want someone to love me!!!" Times when I was so hurt that I could not stand it. I was so depressed during those days.

I know the pain, although it did come the same way, it came from the same source. It's hard to get people to understand, in fact, some never will. They tell you to "just get over it," ya right; if I could do that don't ya think I would have already!!!

We do some strange things at times when we hurt like that I and my hope for you is that you don't do anything to hurt yourself. I know you can make it through this and when you do, you will be so much better for it, even though it may not be something you've caused.

If I could give you some advice (and it will sound strange) this is what it is: take upon yourself all of the blame that you can, but!!! seriously look at what is being said and see if it holds any truth. By doing that you can come though this and know that you have done all that you could without running away from possible pain and you will have no doubt as to what is true and what is not. Then when you know the truth, (for example you may find that there is some validity to one of their accusations) then, you can work to change that trait and it will be healing to you all.

I did this and found that a lot of what I was going through was caused by how I reacted to the abuse I went through as a child and as an adult. I had created a method of thinking and behavior that was actually protecting me from getting hurt but was harming me socially and in relationships. So I accepted my part and was able to make certain changes and was no longer afraid and no longer a slave to that thinking and behavior which, it turns out, was self destructive.

Please do not think that I am saying "it's your fault that all this is going on" but rather to objectively look at this for your own well being. I know you may not be able to do this or you may not understand this now, but print it up and save it for later when it may be of benefit to you. Pain sometimes keeps us from seeing things.

Norman

Thank you for your kind words and understanding. No, some people never understand - because they are in pain themselves, and their only way of protecting themselves is by building up a lot of rules for others to follow. "Plug tab A into slot B and have a wonderful life - forget that you're life and your personality have been messed over by untrustworthy, unloving people."

That personality thing is exactly what I'm talking about here: that's what's being held against me by people in general, but more specifically by men who refuse to see me as "marriage material." Which is what hurts the most, because, well, they'll be my friends, but nothing more (this isn't about some "knight in shining armor," it's about how I've been treated by these guys). Because I didn't always know how to love them with forgiveness, or trust that they wouldn't intentionally abuse me. It's all about rules, fear, and selfishness and self protection. And it's not God's way. He Loved me before I Loved Him. He Spiritually Married me before I knew how to Forgive anyone, or trust anyone either.

My best friend has a saying, "There is no Law." Well put. There should be no "law" regarding who's good enough, or bad enough, or forgiving or trusting enough, for who. Yet even then, I can and have Forgiven the men who've held me up to such a lofty standard of perfection, in being all-Trusting and all-Forgiving. It only pains me to know that I'm not what they wanted because I can't be that close to them, to give them Love more fully or openly.

[Clio]

Originally Posted By: Clio

*whispers* .... and so will/have you too.

I don't know Clio.....having been alluded to elsewhere on the forum today as the Handiwork of Satan by someone who ostensibly knows all about spiritual things, perhaps God does not care about me...what with being in league with the devil and all.

What one person says, with finite eyes and heart means little to your Creator. He formed you, and is working in your life to His purpose. Trust in Him... not in what any human has to say.

Clio

[Clio]

I like your constructive idea of having mentors among the churched. It's very biblical... what Paul was attempting to instruct the churches to have... Unfortunately we have moved to rigid religion from flexible relationship.

It seems to be based on fear... fear of failure. And fear paralyzes, leading to stagnation, works-based execution of a faith-based relationship.

<---- Stepping off my soapbox now... I will continue to pray for you CG4E. I will pray that Abba will wrap your emotions in the soft cotton batting He gave to me while my nerve endings healed. For a time, as He worked in my life, even the gentlest touch against those emotional wounds was exquisitely painful. The soft cotten batting helped tremendously as He worked His healing.

Never forget, that just because you are healing doesn't mean you're going to be miraculously pain free.

Think about physical healing. Often it hurts for a while before it gets better... it's tender, sore, and doesn't react well when poked, prodded, debrided, cleaned, etc. But that doesn't mean you're not getting better.

Just keep going back to the River and bathing your wounds in the River of Life.

Clio

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

I like your constructive idea of having mentors among the churched. It's very biblical... what Paul was attempting to instruct the churches to have... Unfortunately we have moved to rigid religion from flexible relationship.

It seems to be based on fear... fear of failure. And fear paralyzes, leading to stagnation, works-based execution of a faith-based relationship.

<---- Stepping off my soapbox now... I will continue to pray for you CG4E. I will pray that Abba will wrap your emotions in the soft cotton batting He gave to me while my nerve endings healed. For a time, as He worked in my life, even the gentlest touch against those emotional wounds was exquisitely painful. The soft cotten batting helped tremendously as He worked His healing.

Never forget, that just because you are healing doesn't mean you're going to be miraculously pain free.

Think about physical healing. Often it hurts for a while before it gets better... it's tender, sore, and doesn't react well when poked, prodded, debrided, cleaned, etc. But that doesn't mean you're not getting better.

Just keep going back to the River and bathing your wounds in the River of Life.

Clio

Thank you so much for your kind words and prayers. I know all about knowing that this isn't about being pain free. I've already Forgiven everything I've mentioned on this board: my parents, friends, those men who hurt me... Everything. Because they are more important than their mistakes. Which they did make. At least from my point of view, which is the whole point. But those mistakes have had very real affects on my own life, and I have to deal with that. The pain is real and I have to learn to live with it, yet not allow it to keep me down. That's the part that I'm struggling with right now.

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Also, I want to clarify something here. It's one thing for a man to just simply tell me "I don't want to marry you" because he just doesn't want to, or "I don't have those feelings for you" because he just doesn't. That's his right and choice and I'll never disagree or argue with that. It's just the idea that God has this "perfect for him" woman out there, who lines up with certain rules that he holds for her, which I don't line up with, and it doesn't matter how much love that man has for me - I'm just not the right one for him... I can't at all agree with that line of reasoning. Sometimes, it's better to just be honest about what you do and don't want, and leave it at that. Blaming a woman you love for not being your idea of perfect wife material... I can't gel with that at all. Still, I've done my best to suck it up and get over it, and just know that I can be thankful that I'm not married to someone who has rules for me.

If it's one thing I've learned about God, it's that He doesn't consider His Rules to be more important to Him than I am, or than being willing to Live for me, Die for me, and Spiritually Marry me on that Cross. The way I see it, though I can now Forgive anyone for apparently anything, I do know that I'd be much happier with a man who doesn't put his own rules above his own heart for me. Yet I'm starting to believe that such a man just isn't out there, because "much happier with" winds up becoming a whole set of rules, and then bingo, there you have it...

And what's sad is that I used to do this to every man in my life, I just kept the whole "you don't line up with my rules" thing to myself. But I did used to do that. I had no idea that I was missing out on great opportunities for happiness with "less than perfect" men. I drempt of "Mr. Noble" or "Mr. Gentileman" or "Mr. Good/Quiet Boy." But I also wanted "Mr. Crazy/Wild-man" and "Mr. Nature Boy" and a lot of other things too. And of course, he had to already believe in God, have a relationship with God, be an Adventist, etc. etc. etc. by the time I met him. He had to, had to, had to... The "honey do, honey be list" was rather long. Oh lands, I think I had something close to 200 requirements. Only God Himself could have filled that role -- and does.

It never occurred to me to ask myself, "If I fell truly in love with a man who didn't keep all my rules for him, would I still want to marry him?" Funny, God didn't keep most of my "rules" for who I thought He was supposed to be either! Yet He and I still "Wedded" at my Baptism. Seems to me that our "rules" were meant to be broken, or at least bent somewhat, when they're so controlling, so fear-driven, that they only cause hurt and trouble for us, rather than letting us let the Love in (and out...)

[Clio]

Thank you so much for your kind words and prayers. I know all about knowing that this isn't about being pain free. I've already Forgiven everything I've mentioned on this board: my parents, friends, those men who hurt me... Everything. Because they are more important than their mistakes. Which they did make. At least from my point of view, which is the whole point. But those mistakes have had very real affects on my own life, and I have to deal with that. The pain is real and I have to learn to live with it, yet not allow it to keep me down. That's the part that I'm struggling with right now.

Sweetie... You're wrong. It IS about being painfree. It's just...

Let me try explaining it this way.

There are two kinds of healing. There is the miraculous "Thou art HEALED" when you're healed totally and completely all at once with no lingering pains...

Then there is th healing, much like physical healing that we are more familiary with, that He brings us to, with bandages, lessons learned, and the trials that go with being refined in His fire.

When we submit to His will in that healing time, He brings to us experiences that plumb the depths of those emotional wounds cleaning out the pus, gunk, and nasty stuff inside our feelsings, trimming away scar tissue, debriding the dead tissue from emotional burns, etc. It hurts before it gets better.

But as we walk out that path, relying and trusting in Him to do only what makes us well, we learn those lessons of perfect love casting out fear, we learn to rely totally on Him for all our emotional needs, and we do heal. We do become pain-free, we do become more reliant on Him. And lessons we learn through pain and suffering are lessons never forgotten.

Pain-free will come.

Clio

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Wow. Clio - this is exactly what's begun happening to me this evening. God brought me some Understanding as to why the affects of my abused past were used against me by men I loved; why my fears barred me from marrying them. I mean, in a nutshell, that's the affect that my family life has had on my personal life, which was what was driving me crazy the other night, right before all hell broke loose.

Essentially, those men, loving as they were in other ways, wouldn't have been good for me, nor I for them, even though we each can be good for other people. It's been hard knowing that my own "heart issues" are what have kept me from them.

Yet there is One who Loves me enough to be my Servant-Leader (Jesus, the way He was when He washed the feet of the Disciples, which taught them both Trust and Forgiveness, and ultimately, Love), no matter what I'm like. There may be a man who'll come along at some point in time who'll love me the way Jesus does, most of my current/local friends believe there is someone for me... But I have to be honest: I'm not in any mood to look or be in a romantic relationship. I need time to continue healing. I really have been though some traumatic ordeals. I also need time to pick up more of the pieces of my life and hopefully, do something cool with it.

I'm still going to counseling with my mom soon. It's crucial. I can forgive her and be nice to her, but I can't trust her, yet she wants me to and genuinely believes that she wants my best good... *Groans* Perfectionism was never my thing.

Thank you so much for praying for me! Prayers do get Answered, Positively, by our Loving Abba - I only ask now that those prayers continue.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Yet there is One who Loves me enough to be my Servant-Leader (Jesus, the way He was when He washed the feet of the Disciples, which taught them both Trust and Forgiveness, and ultimately, Love), no matter what I'm like. There may be a man who'll come along at some point in time who'll love me the way Jesus does, most of my current/local friends believe there is someone for me... But I have to be honest: I'm not in any mood to look or be in a romantic relationship. I need time to continue healing. I really have been though some traumatic ordeals. I also need time to pick up more of the pieces of my life and hopefully, do something cool with it.

Child of God for ever,

This is great! I wanted to say something like this last night but I wanted to be careful not to hurt you in the state you were in. What I was going to say is: that it appears that the wrong kinds of men are attracted to you. That is why there is no oneness. You know what you want and they look like it but it does not work out.

You have said it well, "I need time to continue healing." Here are two simple sayings that have are loaded with significance. Again please don't think I am saying it's all your fault. Here they are: You attract that which you are. When we do this and are hurting, we attract the same kind of person or one that will try to fix us. It usually doesn't workout. Then the second saying plays with our emotions: Rejection or perceived rejection is the strongest fuel that attracts us to the type that has rejected us. This can happen even if we have rejected them or left the relationship because the failure usually seems to be our faults in some way, in our minds.

Sincerely,

Norman

[ChildOfGod4Ever]

Quote:

Yet there is One who Loves me enough to be my Servant-Leader (Jesus, the way He was when He washed the feet of the Disciples, which taught them both Trust and Forgiveness, and ultimately, Love), no matter what I'm like. There may be a man who'll come along at some point in time who'll love me the way Jesus does, most of my current/local friends believe there is someone for me... But I have to be honest: I'm not in any mood to look or be in a romantic relationship. I need time to continue healing. I really have been though some traumatic ordeals. I also need time to pick up more of the pieces of my life and hopefully, do something cool with it.

Child of God for ever,

This is great! I wanted to say something like this last night but I wanted to be careful not to hurt you in the state you were in. What I was going to say is: that it appears that the wrong kinds of men are attracted to you. That is why there is no oneness. You know what you want and they look like it but it does not work out.

You have said it well, "I need time to continue healing." Here are two simple sayings that have are loaded with significance. Again please don't think I am saying it's all your fault. Here they are: You attract that which you are. When we do this and are hurting, we attract the same kind of person or one that will try to fix us. It usually doesn't workout. Then the second saying plays with our emotions: Rejection or perceived rejection is the strongest fuel that attracts us to the type that has rejected us. This can happen even if we have rejected them or left the relationship because the failure usually seems to be our faults in some way, in our minds.

Sincerely,

Norman

Thank you. I've pretty much already learned these things, but it was good to hear from another person's perspective, particularly a male perspective (though I'm sure the women here could jump all over this in agreement). I somewhat knew all this from the outset, years and years ago, but didn't understand for a long time that once you fall into that trap (because you just have no idea that you're worth anything, or what you're worth in the first place - because you've been rejected by your own family for your whole life...), you just about never really get out: unless God just finds some way to orchestrate things in such a way that you wind up finding out what you're really worth to Him as your own self (and not just as a part of the corporate Body of Believers). There's a lot of extranious psychology that goes into all of this, that I've wound up learning too - at least intellectually, and a bit in my heart as well.

Anyway, I just wanted to update everyone here:

Things are going a little more smoothly here at home. Mom and I made home-made ice-cream tonight (soy based, no milk, I'm allergic to it), and things were tense and weird. But we got through it. Well, technically, we made the "sauce" for it, but it's a cooked-pudding type of thing, so it's cooling in the fridge overnight before we stick it in the maker. So, tomorrow should be a new adventure. Anyway, so, in the midst of that, I got an email back from my counselor: mom and I have an appointment for next Tuesday at 3. I'll see the counselor first, then my mom will see her, then we'll see her together, and it should all take about an hour and a half (haha, probably 3, but anyway).

I've been trying to "sleep" but, well, though I'm in a better mood, sleep won't come. Probably because I've been awake the last few nights. So, I'm working on that. I'm also really exited because it's finally occurred to me that this whole "no rules" business means that, within reason, I'm free to go out and explore and enjoy the world, noting what I learn and my reactions to everything, and just really having a good time. It's been a long time since I did anything like that.

So, that's tonight's update.

Again, thank you so much, everyone, for being here with and for me, praying with and about me And for doing so in complete Trust. It's all been very, very needed, and continues to be.