Americans, know your rights.

[Gregory Matthews]

We do not represent our God well, when we refuse to give any of our limited time, effort, energy, and money to issues that are not related to the SDA Chruch. God calls for Christians to be involved in the world, and not isolated from society. The Bible clearly tells us that some functions of life lie outside of the pervue of the Church, and with society itself. If . . . . wishes [NOTE: I have deleted the name of the person out of respect for his desire not to be associated with anything in life outside of the Chruch.]he may only involve himself in the life of the Chruch. He may only contribute money to that organization. But, other Christians have the right to respond differently, and give of their time, effort, and money ot seccular agencies that better society, even if imperfectly.

[Gregory Matthews]

For those who may want to know more about the Merikay Silver (Not Silverman) case, the following is a website that will give you a pretty good summation of it.

http://www.stepstolife.org/php/view_article.php?article_id=218

NOTE: The above URL contains information in regard to another case. My listing of that URL is due to my beliefe that it gives a pretty good summation of the Merikay case, and should not be constured to support its comments in any other area.

Also, if you want more information, you can read the book that Merikay wrote on that experience.

[Gregory Matthews]

I am listing the URL in regard to the Merikay case because I beleive that this case is a piece of our denominational history that is very important, and should be known by our members. I do not post it to point fingers of blame against anyone. But, I will suggest that there are lessons to be learned in our past history that will serve us well as we meet the challenges of today.

I personally place the Merikay case as one of those lessons. I also place the case of the African-American woman who died when a SDA hospital refused to treat her on the basis of her percieved race. I include other incidents in our history. There are some things that we should know, and not forget.

NOTE: While in the Seminary I took a class from a woman who was a leader in her field. At one time in her life, she was the sole support of a seriously disabled husband who could not be employed. At this previous time, she had been refused the "head of household" wage because it would not be right to pay such to a woman. After all, had not God said that males should be the head of a household?

NOTE: At the time I was a student, she was paid the Head of Household portion of her wage.

NOTE: Merikay Silver made a contribution to the pay for women in our denomination that should be recognized today.

[Neil D]

Thanks Gregory....It's been a while and I did forget exactly what her name was...But I got the first 5 letters right! :R

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

We do not represent our God well, when we refuse to give any of our limited time, effort, energy, and money to issues that are not related to the SDA Chruch.

For those that have been ignoring the point I have been repeatedly making, I will repeat it.

I do not take the position that we should only support the Adventist church with our charitable dollars - nor did Ellen White take that position. However I have taken the position that we should support organizations that support noble causes. The ACLU is a mixed bag. The ACLU supports child molesters, racists and abortionists. One cannot support the ACLU and only support their noble cases. If one supports the ACLU they support their despicable cases as well as their noble cases.

Our own religious liberty department supports only noble cases. Some want to distract from their nobility by discusses cases that they have declined to fight. To project motives onto our religious liberty departments as to why they have or have not taken up certain cases is speculation at best. Our religious liberty departments have limited resources too, which is all the more reason they need our support. If we want to compare apples with apples, let's examine the cases our religious liberty departments have fought (not the ones they haven't fought) with the ones the ACLU has fought. I think God's remnant church were come out much more noble.

I support a host of charities that are not Adventist like Focus on the Family, Answers in Genesis, Salvation Army, Care-Net (Pregnancy Crisis Centers), TBN and the American Legion. However none of these charities are involved in supporting child molesters, racists or abortionists.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

I am listing the URL in regard to the Merikay case because I beleive that this case is a piece of our denominational history...

I agree that is all interesting, should not be forgotten and lessons should be learned. But it should not reflect on our religious liberty departments which were only indirectly involved if even that. Do we want to argue that any organization that has made past mistakes is not deserving our our support? If so, the ACLU is definitely disqualified.

[Neil D]

Quote:

I do not take the position that we should only support the Adventist church with our charitable dollars - nor did Ellen White take that position. However I have taken the position that we should support organizations that support noble causes. The ACLU is a mixed bag. The ACLU supports child molesters, racists and abortionists. One cannot support the ACLU and only support their noble cases. If one supports the ACLU they support their despicable cases as well as their noble cases.

Ah, it's the "one bad apple will spoil the whole bunch" arguement...

Sorry, Shane [ ooops, forgot not to name you] I am not buying the arguement because not all the apples are bad...And the ACLU supported more of our rights thru it's broad representation and principled arguements than we have thiers...

Quote:

I agree that is all interesting, should not be forgotten and lessons should be learned. But it should not reflect on our religious liberty departments which were only indirectly involved if even that. Do we want to argue that any organization that has made past mistakes is not deserving our our support? If so, the ACLU is definitely disqualified.

So where was the Religious Liberty department when this woman's rights were violated? Why were those lawyers involved in degrading this woman's right to fair pay? The Religious Liberty department IS part of the church, and it failed to protect one of thier own workers. Apparently, RL department noblity slips as one investigates omission statements....

[Bravus]

Religious Liberty does a great job of what they do, but their name is an accurate description: they have a narrow focus on that single issue, as they should. Those of us who are interested (as in fact the Bible indicates God is, critically and deeply) in other issues of liberty and justice may need to find other avenues through which to put that interest into action.

[Bravus]

Having said that, maybe organisations like Jim Wallis's Sojourners may well be appropriate: http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=about_us.display_staff&staff=wallis

aldona is the one here who has done far more practical work on these issues than anyone else - I'd be interested to hear her perspective, if she dares or cares to step into this...

[LifeHiscost]

It seems especially good for one to have a large organization to help fight battles of conscience, especially in a world in which the individual is considered to be fair game to exploit. Therefore it seems to me the best and most powerful fairly functioning organization to side with would be the body of Christ. Some of their Leader's best advice is found in the principles describing Who He is.

"Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back."

Luke 6:30 NASB

"Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way..."

1 Cor 13:5 AMP

Regards!

[Bravus]

Yeppers... if the body of Christ was better at protecting people rather than empowering those who rob and kill them, I'd agree. The Bible has it covered, absolutely... now to find the people who are putting it into practice.

[LifeHiscost]

Yeppers... if the body of Christ was better at protecting people rather than empowering those who rob and kill them, I'd agree. The Bible has it covered, absolutely... now to find the people who are putting it into practice.

Agreeing that the Word has the best advice is a step in the right direction and I agree with you that finding those who put that advice into practice can be difficult. There is a promise I ask of God to fulfill in my life that has made life much easier for me.

"And he said unto them, with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you...." Mark 4:24 KJV

Many times my own meting out falls far short of God's wishes, so I receive less than what God would really wish me to have. However, trusting in God's grace keeps the balances level enough so no one becomes totally disallusioned, especially me. Considering how well my fortunes have been, my conclusion is that placing one's self with His professed people, with all the faults and foibles evident, still overrides any other course of life.

"I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness."

Psalm 84:10 KJV

Regards!

[Dr. Shane]

I am sure there are many noble organizations that fight for civil rights. Our religious liberty departments do have a narrow focus, but an important one, and fight for liberty all across the globe and not just in one geographical area.

The ACLU has defended so many despicable cases I cannot see giving them any preference over other organizations with similar goals and more noble records.

[aldona]

aldona is the one here who has done far more practical work on these issues than anyone else - I'd be interested to hear her perspective, if she dares or cares to step into this...

...too much craziness at work this week ...might reply in more detail in a few days...

...but I'll just say that I am involved with Amnesty as well as with the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, and in both cases when Adventists find this out, the first question I am often asked is why I am involved with "worldly" (non-SDA) charities and told I should be directing my time/money to ADRA.

aldona

[Dr. Shane]

Just to tag on here with a thought...

I suspect that if it were discovered that Amnesty International was discovered not only to use refugees as prostitutes but to defend their practice of doing so, many that support them would no longer do so.

Not only has the ACLU defended child molesters, racists, homophobs and abortionists, they continue to defend themselves for doing so and do not view these past actions as reprehensible.

[lazarus]

Quote:

...but I'll just say that I am involved with Amnesty as well as with the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, and in both cases when Adventists find this out, the first question I am often asked is why I am involved with "worldly" (non-SDA) charities and told I should be directing my time/money to ADRA.

aldona

Aldona speaks to point of it all. If "it" does not speak directly to the personal concerns of SDA's, many SDA's aren't interested. This is why most SDA churches are not effectively invovled in their communities. They simply don't care enough.

If a county decided to pass local Sunday legislation, for example, SDA's would be all over it because it would directly impact them.

Helping asylum seekers is not really part of the Three Angels Message anyway.

[Dr. Shane]

I think we do need to make a distinction between causes we support as individual members and causes we want our church to support as an organization.

Take Care Net for example. Care Net runs a network of crisis pregnancy centers which help women with crisis pregnancies and try to steer them away from having abortions. Care Net is run by Christians and is not political. While it may lobby legislative bodies for funding and laws that help crisis pregnancy centers, it stays clear of the pro-life/pro-choice debate. It is non-denominational with a focus of only helping women in trouble. I think it is a fine example of a noble cause. I support them financially. However I would not want the Adventist church to go down that road.

God has called the Adventist church forth with a specific message for a specific time. He has called the folks at Care-Net to a different ministry. While I support Care-Net as an individual, I don't see that the church should support them or other similar causes that are just as noble.

Of course, the ACLU is not nearly as noble as Amnesty International or Care-Net. One cannot defend child molesters, abortionists, racists and homophobs and still qualify as being noble with me.

[Neil D]

Quote:

This is why most SDA churches are not effectively invovled in their communities. They simply don't care enough.

A reflection that we, both corporately and individually, just don't care...period..What a bunch of hypocrits we are....And yet, there are those who do care....individually....

Quote:

Helping asylum seekers is not really part of the Three Angels Message anyway.

Which is sad, 'cause I thought we all were seeking asylum...only we call it "salvation".....