On Sabbath, this world affair forum is closed...

[Neil D]

Over the last couple of months, I have noticed something....

While other forums are thriving and get a post or two today [some even get double the number of week day posts], this forum tends to find it's way into the sub compartment of NO ACTIVITY.... LOL

Anyone wanna tell me why they don't post here on Sabbath???

Or is this just a distasteful subject?

[Woody]

Neil ... The reason is that at a recent SDA council on Sabbath keeping it was voted on and approved that SDAs should not read secular things such as newspapers on the Sabbath.

I happen to agree with this recommendation. I would not impose my beliefs on others. But, personally I try not to read or comment on secular affairs such as is presented here on "World Affairs".

If I were to make a suggestion ... I would close all these topics on the Sabbath so they are not a temptation for me to look at.

[Nan]

One minor problem, when is Sabbath? Meaning, Sabbath in this part of the world starts almost a day ahead of the Pacific coast of the US and it is now Sunday morning here, while people there are probably getting out of church.

Surely some things have to be left up to individual discretion.

[Woody]

You are right Nan. I guess that it depends upon if this is considered an Adventist Forum or not. The word Adventist is included in the name though.

Let me post what was accepted at the 55th General Conference Session. (1990)

"When the sacred nature of the Sabbath is understood, and a loving relationship exists between parents and children, all will seek to prevent intrusions into the holy hours by secular MUSIC, RADIO, VIDEO, and TELEVISION programs, and by NEWSPAPERS, BOOKS, and MAGAZINES."

I think that reading and talking about "World Affairs" on CA would be covered in this catagory. Again ... the question would be ... are we Adventist here or not Adventist? If we are Adventist then this would not be acceptable according to the church body.

[Amelia]

I agree Nan. But even here in the states the Sabbath starts 4 hours earlier on the east coast than the west. Maybe the board should be shut down for 3 days to cover all time zones and days?

[Woody]

Quote:

Maybe the board should be shut down for 3 days to cover all time zones and days?

That would cover it !!

[Neil D]

Ok, so let me get this straight....

Adventist's should carpartmentalize sabbath activities so as to not offend ...1] God's Law 2] our church....

Jesus says that we should worship God in Spirit and in truth...Well, we know the truth....but how do we worship in Spirit? Are we not defined by our actions? Are we spiritual in nature or are we ...legalistic? Is not legalism more worldly than spiritual?

Would not the closing of the forum be a spiritual or legalistic action?

I suspect that WE need to make this distinction in our lives.

[Dr. Shane]

I must admit that I have felt a tinge of guilt when posting in World Affairs on the Sabbath. I don't think I have actually started threads in World Affairs on the Sabbath but I may be guilty of that.

I have noticed a lot of secular politics get talked about in church circles on the Sabbath - especially around potluck tables. I don't read secular news on the Sabbath but I do talk about it. I think I feel guiltier about talking to brothers in the church about business on the Sabbath than politics. I think this is an issue that has to be left between the believer and God.

That said, I don't think the World Affairs section being slow on the Sabbath is an issue that needs to be dealt with. It is what it is. If members here don't want to read about politics on the Sabbath, I can hardly blame them.

[Neil D]

356, 357, 358,....oh, hi CoAspen....

Hey Neil,

We could also get out the twine and mark off the distance we are allowed to travel on sabbath...and...and.....

Well, as you can see, I am already doing that....Now, where was I ...536?, 758? Oooooh drat....[looking this way and that way]

1, 2, 3, 4,....

[Tom Wetmore]

...It's perfectly OK to discuss current world events, etc., as long as you do so in an end-times prophecy fullfilment way... Or to discuss secular stuff as an example of how debauched and sinful the world is getting... Or the latest consumer trend as another example of love of money, greed, storing up treasure in the wrong place...

Tom

[Woody]

Tom ... you may be right. But you do not want to go against the leadership brethren who have outlined the specific media that is banned on Sabbath ... this being secular "MUSIC, RADIO, VIDEO, and TELEVISION programs, and by NEWSPAPERS, BOOKS, and MAGAZINES"

Technically we are safe I guess because they did not list internet.

How about if Admin were to establish a list of acceptable discussions that are allowed on Sabbath. They could then "monitor" this and delete those comments deemed UN-Sabbathical. They could monitor the different time zones to see if the contributor was in an acceptable time zone for the Non-Sabbatical comment.

[nuff sed]

You rarely see any of "the brethren" stop by on this forum to start with so I would suggest that we just keep muddling on as we have. If you don't like something being discussed on 'the Sabbath' then wait until sunset +.01 to give your 21/2 cents worth.

[Woody]

The point is Glad ... that whatever the "brethren" decide and vote for is what the rest of us are required to believe. IF we don't then we are suppose to turn in our membership credentials.

They decided this in GC session. Therefore we are obliged to conform.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

whatever the "brethren" decide and vote for is what the rest of us are required to believe. IF we don't then we are suppose to turn in our membership credentials.

Where did that come from? Perhaps an acceptable idea for our clergy but certainly not for the laity. There are a list of "violations" that are cause for church discipline but it is quite narrow compared to the hundreds of doctrines we hold.

[Morning Glory]

Now Redwood,

I know that you are posting this partly tongue in cheek. I think that a LOT of us would have to turn in our membership credentials if the "brethren" were fully aware of our thoughts and feelings and actions........I am SO GRATEFUL that our God does not do "business" in this manner, as I know that you are, too!!

I would put forth the thought that a lot of us don't even look in this section for personal reasons. I would also put forth that folks may not post on Sabbath because of a PERSONAL conviction to not consider these topics on the Sabbath. I would also put forth the thought that others, still, have no such conviction of avoiding these subjects on the Sabbath. Still another thought is that there may be those who frequent this board who are not **gasp** Adventists at all.

I am sure that you are right about what the "brethren" at the top decided is proper Sabbath keeping in regards to these subjects you listed. However, no amount of legislating will ever convict or convince ANYONE what they will do. No matter how anyone else feels about it.....

Surely you jest when you suggested that the Admin. of CA "police" certain threads that "shouldn't" be discussed on the Sabbath.......what a pain for them!!

I would humbly suggest that this line of discussion take a more kindly turn. If someone wants to post, that is between them and God (no matter what they read or post ANY DAY). It is not up to us to judge.......and not up to us to criticize another's motives. That, too, is God's "job".

I just think that it is an interesting observation that there is not much activity in this thread during the Sabbath. Period. And, I suppose that that would take up about 3 days when you consider the entire world. Hummmmmm vellly intellestink!!!

Well, you all have a fun discussion on this topic!!

MG

[nuff sed]

I personally believe that we could all get together at the CHAT Room from sundown Friday nights (whenever it is or wherever you are) for a couple hours and share how the Lord has blessed/used us during the week. We used to have quite a few but it seems to have dwindled to just two or three of us. Maybe some are like my 95 yr.old mother who cannot find any reason why I should be using a computer on the Sabbath.

[John317]

Coming to this forum on Sunday, I saw comments about why so few people are active at CA on the Sabbath. I'm active in the mornings that day but later on I am off because Sabbath is a day I like to devote to spending time with my kids and wife, studying the Bible, going for hikes, etc. There are probably quite a few others on CA who are off doing the same kinds of things on the Sabbath.

[Woody]

For the record ....

Quote:

"Resolved, that the highest authority under God among Seventh-day Adventists is found in the will of the body of that people, as expressed in the decisions of the General Conference when acting within its proper jurisdiction; and that such decisions should be SUBMITTED to by ALL without exception, unless they can be shown to conflict with the word of God and the rights of individual conscience" Church Manual p, 1-2 in the 2000 edition

Quote:

"I have been shown that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any one man. But when the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon the earth , is exercised, PRIVATE independence and PRIVATE judgment MUST NOT be maintained, but be SURRENDERED" Ellen White 3T 492 Church Manual p. 39

Quote:

" The word of God does not give license for one man to set up his judgment in opposition to the judgment of the church, neither is he allowed to urge his opinions against the opinions of the church" Ellen White 3T 428 Church Manual p 156

I hope this clarifies the position of the church regarding church members when it comes to decisions made by the Church Body in General Conference Session.

It is not just for clergy ... but for all. Including the laity

[carolaa]

The point is Glad ... that whatever the "brethren" decide and vote for is what the rest of us are required to believe. IF we don't then we are suppose to turn in our membership credentials.

They decided this in GC session. Therefore we are obliged to conform.

My understanding has always been that these kinds of proclamations are only guidelines, not requirements. You can find a lot of these in the Church Manual, and they are only guidelines to use when there is confusion on an issue, or for people who truly have questions about an issue. If you don't feel you need guidelines, then toss them out. No big deal.

Personally, politics and world affairs tend to get me either "down" or riled up, so I don't want to go there on the Sabbath. (Actually, I don't go there much at all.)

[Dr. Shane]

The church is a "WE" organization and not a "ME" organization. That is true and individualism can become a plague to the church.

Quote:

should be SUBMITTED to by ALL without exception, unless they can be shown to conflict with the word of God and the rights of individual conscience

The underlined portion above is the crux of the matter. There are various understandings of certain doctrines in the church. Some do not pay their tithe to the organized church. Some do not refrain from using jewelry. What is prohibited on the Sabbath varies among believers as their understanding of Scripture varies. (Thus this thread)

As a result, the church manual contains a list of offenses that merits church discipling. An interesting note: not paying tithe isn't on the list.

[Woody]

Quote:

My understanding has always been that these kinds of proclamations are only guidelines, not requirements. You can find a lot of these in the Church Manual, and they are only guidelines to use when there is confusion on an issue, or for people who truly have questions about an issue. If you don't feel you need guidelines, then toss them out. No big deal.

Well said carolaa ... I would hope that what you have said is true.But in practice ... the big arm of government can on occasions reach out and hurt.

I am a Republican so ... I am in favor of "small" government. This transfers to church government also. I hate to see the church dictate or even "suggest" what we should do. I feel that not only does it promote laziness and potential abuse ... but it also is kinda like the Jews exacting rules and regulations and "suggestions" on how to keep the Sabbath.

I have to confess ... I have been dishing out a lot of Tongue in Cheek. I thought it was obvious in its strange wildness such as having Admin dictate what is "Sabbatical" and what is not. This was a parallel to what it seems the Church is doing by having rules or suggestions on what we can do and not do on sabbath.

Obviously I reject both the Church and CA trying to dictate what we ourselvs should be deciding to do. It must be a personal matter that we study hard and commune with God about. But each person will arrive at different places. There will not be the uniformity that the church government desires. However, this was the way God wanted it or He would have provided more specific instrustions on Sabbath keeping in the Bible.

Hope this makes it clear that I was playing the Devil's advocate.

I am all for personal choice and "little" government.

[Woody]

Quote:

not paying tithe isn't on the list.

I think you might want to consider that the church can disfellowship you for stealing. And not paying tithe is stealing according to the Bible and Ellen White.Thus ... the church can disfellowship you or discipline you if you don't pay tithe under this terminology if you wanted to be technical.

And it does discipline you because you are not allowed to hold ANY church offices if you are not a faithful tithe payer.

[John317]

From "The Time Of Trouble," GC 620, 621

"Satan leads many to believe that God will overlook their unfaithfulness in the minor affairs of life; but the Lord shows in His dealings with Jacob that He will in no wise sanction or tolerate evil. All who endeavor to excuse or conceal their sins, and permit them to remain upon the books of heaven, unconfessed and unforgiven, will be overcome by Satan. The more exalted their profession and the more honorable the position which they hold, the more grievous is their course in the sight of God and the more sure the triumph of their great adversary. Those who delay a preparation for the day of God cannot obtain it in the time of trouble or at any subsequent time. The case of all such is hopeless.

"Those professed Christians who come up to that last fearful conflict unprepared will, in their despair, confess their sins in words of burning anguish, while the wicked exult over their distress. These confessions are of the same character as was that of Esau or of Judas. Those who make them, lament the result of transgression, but not its guilt. They feel no true contrition, no abhorrence of evil. They acknowledge their sin, through fear of punishment; but, like Pharaoh of old, they would return to their defiance of Heaven should the judgments be removed.

"Jacob's history is also an assurance that God will not cast off those who have been deceived and tempted and betrayed into sin, but who have returned unto Him with true repentance. While Satan seeks to destroy this class, God will send His angels to comfort and protect them in the time of peril. The assaults of Satan are fierce and determined, his delusions are terrible; but the Lord's eye is upon His people, and His ear listens to their cries. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but the Refiner will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. God's love for His children during the period of their severest trial is as strong and tender as in the days of their sunniest prosperity; but it is needful for them to be placed in the furnace of fire; their earthliness must be consumed, that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.

"The season of distress and anguish before us will require a faith that can endure weariness, delay, and hunger--a faith that will not faint though severely tried. The period of probation is granted to all to prepare for that time. Jacob prevailed because he was persevering and determined. His victory is an evidence of the power of importunate prayer. All who will lay hold of God's promises, as he did, and be as earnest and persevering as he was, will succeed as he succeeded. Those who are unwilling to deny self, to agonize before God, to pray long and earnestly for His blessing, will not obtain it. Wrestling with God--how few know what it is! How few have ever had their souls drawn out after God with intensity of desire until every power is on the stretch. When waves of despair which no language can express sweep over the suppliant, how few cling with unyielding faith to the promises of God.

"Those who exercise but little faith now, are in the greatest danger of falling under the power of satanic delusions and the decree to compel the conscience. And even if they endure the test they will be plunged into deeper distress and anguish in the time of trouble, because they have never made it a habit to trust in God. The lessons of faith which they have neglected they will be forced to learn under a terrible pressure of discouragement.

"We should now acquaint ourselves with God by proving His promises. Angels record every prayer that is earnest and sincere. We should rather dispense with selfish gratifications than neglect communion with God. The deepest poverty, the greatest self-denial, with His approval, is better than riches, honors, ease, and friendship without it. We must take time to pray. If we allow our minds to be absorbed by worldly interests, the Lord may give us time by removing from us our idols of gold, of houses, or of fertile lands."

[nuff sed]

... the church can disfellowship you or discipline you if you don't pay tithe under this terminology

The "return" of tithe is not a 'test of fellowship' in the Seventh-day Adventist Church.................It is a 'test of employment' if you are employed by the denomination.

[Dr. Shane]

Right or wrong, I know many that do not pay their tithe to the "correct" places. I know some that pay their tithe and mark the envelope for the church budget. I know others that pay it to various ministries. It is kind of hard to find a place in the Bible that says tithe is to be paid to the local Adventist conference. Thus the church has a weak case in demanding believers pay their tithe to the conference.

However that is not to say the church shouldn't encourage members to pay their tithe to the conference. One way of encouraging them is to show them how the tithe is used and that there is a need.

Local congregations can disfellowship members for almost anything. My wife's aunt was disfellowshipped for wearing jeans to church. However, that aside, the church manual does outline, or suggest, reasons for disfellowshipping.