Christian leaders ask Muslims for forgiveness

[lazarus]

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=23280

Christian figures respond to letter from 138 Muslim scholars that called for 'common word' between Muslims, Christians.

LONDON - In response to a letter from 138 Muslim scholars entitled 'A Common Word Between Us and You' which highlighted the existence of a common ground between Christianity and Islam, members of the worldwide Christian community wrote their own letter, acknowledging that in the past (e.g. in the Crusades) and in the present (e.g. in excesses of the 'war on terror') many Christians have been guilty of sinning against Muslims.

The full text of the letter:

As members of the worldwide Christian community, we were deeply encouraged and challenged by the recent historic open letter signed by 138 leading Muslim scholars, clerics, and intellectuals from around the world. A Common Word Between Us and You identifies some core common ground between Christianity and Islam which lies at the heart of our respective faiths as well as at the heart of the most ancient Abrahamic faith, Judaism. Jesus Christ's call to love God and neighbor was rooted in the divine revelation to the people of Israel embodied in the Torah (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). We receive the open letter as a Muslim hand of conviviality and cooperation extended to Christians worldwide. In this response we extend our own Christian hand in return, so that together with all other human beings we may live in peace and justice as we seek to love God and our neighbors.

This is a good thing....right?

[Dr. Shane]

Where is the apology in there?

[lazarus]

I'm sorry, the apology is in the next paragraph, Here it is....... (click the link for the full letter.)

Muslims and Christians have not always shaken hands in friendship; their relations have sometimes been tense, even characterized by outright hostility. Since Jesus Christ says, 'First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor's eye' (Matthew 7:5), we want to begin by acknowledging that in the past (e.g. in the Crusades) and in the present (e.g. in excesses of the 'war on terror') many Christians have been guilty of sinning against our Muslim neighbors. Before we 'shake your hand' in responding to your letter, we ask forgiveness of the All-Merciful One and of the Muslim community around the world.

[Dr. Shane]

That seems good. However there is a big difference between the Crusades and the excesses of the War on Terror. The Crusades were called for by the pope. No way around it. The crusades were all about religion. The "excesses" in the War on Terror, such as prisoner abuses and war crimes, not only are not called for by a church, but they are even a violation of the civil governments supporting the War on Terror. The soldiers guilty of these offenses are being punished and I haven't heard any of them claiming they did those things in the name of Christ. So I don't see much relationship between the crusades and the excesses on the War on Terror.

[John317]

I agree with the statement by the Christians, except in its reference to the war on terrorists. However, wanting to bend over backwards to seek their forgiveness, I would be happy to also sign my name even to that part of the statement.

[CaseyButler]

This may come as a shock, but the "war on terror" is all about religion too.

The only difference being that the "pope" is now We The People and our elected "representatives", having morphed our religion into the religions of "capatilism", "democracy", and "patriotism".

We worship the beast 6 days a week and give God Sabbath, allowing the Prince through the gate once a week at least.

We have attempted to separate God from our obvious disobedience to His Laws that we must join in order to make a living in today's worldly society.

A worldly society which we have joined completely in its disobedience to God and the teachings of Christ in the Sermon on the Mount.

We have created an abomination known as the beast, using the name of Christ and our motto "In God We Trust" but in reality being worshippers of secularism, as we've attempted to separate "church" from "state", allowing "state" to do the dirty work of wealth acquisition, killing and oppression for us and our material wealth - and our "security" - while we claim to have clean hands.

But our hands aren't clean, we fund and support everything the government does instead of standing against it in love as Jesus did.

Our church must keep silent because to do anything else would threaten its tax-exempt status before the government. What would all the amassed wealth of our church be, the property and commerce we indulge in making money from God's Word, if we actually had to pay taxes on it all?

So we stay silent, amassing more and more wealth, more and more hypocricy against the day Jesus will come and it will all be worthless anyway.

The news is: God is everywhere, within the church, within the state, and all that we do is inseparable in His Eyes from who we are.

He sees and knows all that we are supporting and allowing to happen as "Christians", claiming that wonderful name to hide behind our hypocricies.

The excesses in the "war on terror" are indeed caused purely by our religion of "materalism" and "patriotism" and worship of the beast with whom anything goes rather than our worship of God.

I may not be much, but I am a witness to God's inspiration through Muhammad that is the Qur'an.

God's covenant made with Abraham under which Ishmael was promised that his seed would become a great nation is an everlasting covenant, though we deny it.

In an exuberant moment out of worry for his followers, Paul wrote Arabia off as "under the Law" in trying to explain the Promise to Isaac to the Galations.

But we follow the Roman Church's view of Paul's words, and have historically used that explanation to ignore the Middle East...

Until now, when we need oil for our toys.

Suddenly our religion of "Christianity", our Christian founded "democracy", our "anything goes" religion of unlimited consumerism, has become something we need to spread in order to bring "security" to the Middle Eastern peoples.

Is that what God wants the Middle East to have?

God did not ignore the Middle East, and "Christian" arrogance in ignoring the Qur'an as the inspired Word of God is going to require more than just asking "forgiveness" of Muslims.

In 600 AD "Christianity" was the Roman Church, Judaism was the children of the Pharisees, and neither could be bothered to bring the Gospel of Christ or the Love of God through the Torah and prophets to Arabic-speaking people who lived in "worthless" desert.

As God gave Moses the Torah, God gave Muhammad the Qur'an to teach the Law to a tribal people whose society had become chaos.

Because of the Qur'an, Islam is a mirror image of Israel right up to the time of the Pharisees when Jesus came.

Muhammad had to be a Moses, not the Jesus that the Roman Church had made into an unreachable God that only popes could talk to. Like Moses, he had to teach his people to defend themselves, to guard the Law, to live their righteousness, and to protect and feed the widows, the poor and the fatherless.

He included every precept of the Gospels and the Torah, including the Ten Commandments - the Sabbath which he kept himself - the Qur'an would not exist without the Gospel, for Muhammad's compassion for his people was a result of his knowledge of and relationship with Jesus Christ.

Initially the Qur'an changed Arabia as the Torah changed Israel. Education became paramount and righteousness and care for the poor produced a renaissance in the Middle East - as the Word of God of the Torah made Israel shine as a light to the world.

But as happened with Israel, today we see in Islam the extremism of the Pharisees, where the Mercy of God has become so subservient to human precepts of "justice" that the people are bound and shackled by human interpretations of the Divine Law.

Right up to executing the adultresses, and even prosecuting the English teacher who names a teddy-bear Muhammad because that is the most special name her students know. So they chose it.

How long will it take us to see it, us "Christians"? Your "war on terror" is an never-ending war of blood that covers our "Christian" hands because we refuse to hear either Jesus, who we know, or Muhammad, who knew Jesus better than we do.

Oh... we know how to use Jesus to save ourselves, we just don't know anymore how to save others as He did.

By walking the walk of God, not just talking the talk.

I stand as a witness to God's love of Arabic-speaking peoples everywhere, of His extraordinary inspiration to the Prophet Muhammad using the Spiritual Words of Jesus and David and the Prophets, the two-edged sword.

Our church, trained and entrusted by Mrs. White in the importance of God's Law and the Love of God as expressed through the Life of Christ, should be a witness too.

May God forgive us for not being so thus far.

[John317]

...I may not be much, but I am a witness to God's inspiration through Muhammad that is the Qur'an.

If the same God who inspired the Hebrew Scriptures and the Greek Christian Scriptures also inspired the Qur'an, why do they conflict in very important ways? For instance, the Qur'an says Allah never had a son and that anyone who says Allah had a son is a liar. It says also that Jesus was only a prophet and not even the greatest of the prophets. There are many other teachings of the Qur'an that contradict the Bible.

"To the law and to the Testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." "Even if we, or an angel [or spirit] from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." "Thy word is Truth." etc.

Quote:

God's covenant made with Abraham under which Ishmael was promised that his seed would become a great nation is an everlasting covenant, though we deny it.

God specifically denies that Ishmael or his descendants are a part of the covenant that God makes with Isaac (Gen. 17: 19-21). God did promise that Ishmael's descendants would be a great nation, but there is nothing in it to show that this is part of an everlasting covenant. There is only one everlasting covenant in the Bible, and that covenant is the New Covenant, the promise of salvation through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. The Bible is clear that for anyone to be in right relationship to God, they must accept God's only provision, faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Quote:

In and exuberant moment out of worry for his followers, Paul wrote Arabia off as "under the Law" in trying to explain the Promise to Isaac to the Galations.

Please elaborate and explain.

Do you believe 2 Tim. 3: 15-17 and 2 Peter 1: 19-21; 3: 15-16? How do you understand those verses?

Quote:

But we follow the Roman Church's view of Paul's words, and have historically used that explanation to ignore the Middle East...

How do you understand Paul's words? Contrast that with how "we" understand them?

Quote:

... God did not ignore the Middle East, and "Christian" arrogance in ignoring the Qur'an as the inspired Word of God is going to require more than just asking "forgiveness" of Muslims.

Could you explain why you believe the Qur'an is the inspired word of God? What specifically does the Qur'an say that convinces you that is it the inspired word of God? Please, if you would, address the problem of obvious contradictions between the Qu'ran and the Bible. For instance, the fact that the Bible clearly teaches that God has a Son named Jesus Christ, and the Qu'ran flatly denies this. I am sure you realize the existence of many other true contradictions.

Also, having read the Qu'ran 3 times and studied Islam, I know that the God of the Bible is quite a different persona from the deity portrayed in the Qu'ran and in the other books of Islam.

For instance, Yahweh personally and lovingly creates man out of earth, whereas the Qu'ran says that Allah made man out of "a despised fluid."

According to the Qu'ran, Friday is the holy day, whereas in the Bible the only day God blessed and sanctified is the weekly Sabbath day, the seventh day of the week.

Quote:

In 600 AD "Christianity" was the Roman Church, Judaism was the children of the Pharisees, and neither could be bothered to bring the Gospel of Christ or the Love of God through the Torah and prophets to Arabic-speaking people who lived in "worthless" desert.

I agree with you here. The church at that time was corrupt, and if the church [i.e., Catholic church, for he did not know about "the church in the wilderness"] had not been corrupt, Mohammed would almost certainly have become a Christian. He rejected it because he was appalled by its corruption and what he recognized as false teachings. I believe all this is what Rev. 9 is largely referring to. The Muslims and Islam has been used by God to punish Christianity for its corruption and unfaithfulness just as God used the Babylonians to punish Israel for the same reason.

Quote:

As God gave Moses the Torah, God gave Muhammad the Qur'an to teach the Law to a tribal people whose society had become chaos.

Have you ever heard of The Satanic Verses? Have you heard why that book was named by that particular title? Muhammad was visited by a spirit, which at first he believed was an evil spirit. He rejected it at first, but then when it returned he accepted it. I believe without a doubt that Muhammad's initial conviction about its identity was correct and his second was a tragic mistake.

If that spirit was a spirit from God, why do Christians need to share Christ with the Muslims? Why didn't the spirit give them the whole truth instead of denying the truth as it is in the New Testament? It is very hard, if not impossible, for me to believe that a spirit from God would contradict what the Holy Spirit inspired prophets and apostles to write.

How do you view this and do you have a good explanation? If you do, I'd like very much to understand it.

Quote:

...He [Muhammad] included every precept of the Gospels and the Torah, including the Ten Commandments - the Sabbath which he kept himself - the Qur'an would not exist without the Gospel, for Muhammad's compassion for his people was a result of his knowledge of and relationship with Jesus Christ.

Yes, I realize that he studied both the Old and the New Testaments. I believe he would have become a Christian had it not been terribly corrupt at that time.

I can't agree with you that the Qur'an agrees with the Gospels and the Torah.

Do you believe that God inspired the Muslims to keep Friday as their holy day?

Quote:

Initially the Qur'an changed Arabia as the Torah changed Israel. Education became paramount and righteousness and care for the poor produced a renaissance in the Middle East - as the Word of God of the Torah made Israel shine as a light to the world.

But as happened with Israel, today we see in Islam the extremism of the Pharisees, where the Mercy of God has become so subservient to human precepts of "justice" that the people are bound and shackled by human interpretations of the Divine Law.

Right up to executing the adultresses, and even prosecuting the English teacher who names a teddy-bear Muhammad because that is the most special name her students know. So they chose it.

I agree.

Quote:

How long will it take us to see it, us "Christians"? Your "war on terror" is an never-ending war of blood that covers our "Christian" hands because we refuse to hear either Jesus, who we know, or Muhammad, who knew Jesus better than we do.

What do you believe the West should do when being attacked by Muslims? What should we have done as a result of what happened on 9/11? What do you think of the current Iranian's leader's position that Israel should be destroyed? In your opinion, should the US and the West allow him to build nuclear weapons? What should our policy be?

Quote:

Oh... we know how to use Jesus to save ourselves, we just don't know anymore how to save others as He did.

By walking the walk of God, not just talking the talk.

I stand as a witness to God's love of Arabic-speaking peoples everywhere, of His extraordinary inspiration to the Prophet Muhammad using the Spiritual Words of Jesus and David and the Prophets, the two-edged sword.

Please explain this last paragraph.

Quote:

Our church, trained and entrusted by Mrs. White in the importance of God's Law and the Love of God as expressed through the Life of Christ, should be a witness too.

May God forgive us for not being so thus far.

Are you aware of the many SDA workers teaching and preaching in places such as Pakistan? I have heard that every week, there are many Muslims becoming SDA. SDAs are not opposed to Muslims per se.

I think one of the major obstructions to witnessing to Muslims is that in many of their nations, you can be killed for teaching people about Christ. It would help a great deal if they would stop doing this and allow Christians to work in their countries. For instance, Iran and Saudi Arabia.

Thanks for the good discussion. I look forward to your responses.

My wife and I have been really close friends for 17 years with an Afghanistan family who lived next door to us in Loma Linda. He escaped from Afghanistan during the Russian occupation and eventually brought his wife (who is also his cousin) and 3 young boys here. (Actually the last one, Da'iid, was born here.) I gave them a New Testament in Farsi, but she gave it back unread. We seldom talk about religion, and I would never say a negative word to them about Islam; but we often go to their place for wonderful visits and delicious meals. The Adventist hospital here has been giving her free chemo treatments for her breast cancer. Their oldest boy was given free education at La Sierra paid for by SDA doctors, etc, but he's unable to find work because, having been born in Afghanistan, he's not a legal resident. (There is a hearing pending in a few months which will determine their legal status and whether they must return to Afghanistan.) When he was young, the boy, who is now grown, would tell me he wanted to be a cleric. He no longer says this. Please pray for this family and especially for the older boy, who has studied the Bible. As you probably know, it would be very dangerous for him to return to Afghanistan, since he is really an American in his customs and thinking. Their name is Sallhei.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

This is a true story. Anyone with an interest in Muslims should watch this. It is Arabic with english subtitles.

http://godnews.podomatic.com/player/2007-06-17T17_09_56-07_00?src=http%3A%2F%2Fgodnews.podOmatic.com%2Fenclosure%2F2007-06-17T17_09_56-07_00.mp4&flv=1

To order the DVD go to morethandreams.org. (I know nothing about this website nor am I affiliated with it, I post this for your interest)

Norman

[CaseyButler]

Your first point is enough to illustrate the straightforward way the Qur'an is written, as given by God:

The Qur'an says God never had sex with a human in order to beget a son, that having sex with His creations is beneath Him.

No different from what the Bible says.

Jesus Himself said in response to the Pharisee's accusation that He called Himself the Son of God:

"Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

"If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

"Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?" [KJV-Bible - John 10:34-36]

Paul's description of God in Acts chapter 17 describes God thusly:

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

"Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

"That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." [KJV-Bible - Acts 17:24-28]

It is made clear time and time again in the Bible that Jesus being the "Son of God" is a metaphorical, not a literal, distinction.

We are already God's "offspring", Paul says Jesus is the first fruits of all of us, all of us, who, when the time comes, then become the true Spiritual Sons and Daughters of God, as Jesus is now.

All people are made of one blood to seek Him.

There is no contradiction between the Bible and the Qur'an. Jesus set Muhammad free to be a Moses just as He has set you free to be a "Christian" and use His name while disobeying God's Commandments.

Few Arabs in Muhammad's time could understand the abstract teachings of Rome that made Jesus literally the Son of God, teachings that will always contradict the Bible's description of God and Jesus both.

You and I can understand the concept of the "Son of God" without imagining God coming down and impregnating Mary Himself.

But neither the tribal Arab, nor the tribal Jew of Moses' time, could have made that leap of faith understanding "Son" in metaphorical terms meant to unite mankind.

The Love of Jesus and God that comes through from Muhammad are unmistakable if we just hear them.

The Words of the Good Samaritan to the Innkeeper were: "A measure of wheat for a penny, and two measures of barley for a penny, and hurt not the oil and the wine..."

We, as "Christians" hold the keys to the Kingdom as Jesus left them with us. We are hurting the oil and the wine that God through Muhammad poured into the wounds of the injured man, while the priest and the Levite ignored him.

The love of Christianity has waxed so cold, become so inter-twined with the workings of the world of politics and national power, and the hatred being taught today about Islam is so subtle and so persuasive, as was the hatred taught about the Jews in the past, how they "rejected" Jesus etc...

My witness for God is not going to change any minds that are already made up, but its possible some people will hear.

I'm not a liar, I'm telling the Truth.

Casey

[John317]

Your first point is enough to illustrate the straightforward way the Qur'an is written, as given by God:

The Qur'an says God never had sex with a human in order to beget a son, that having sex with His creations is beneath Him.

No different from what the Bible says.

Could you give me the reference in the Qur'an? Also, does the Qur'an ever refer to Jesus as the Son of God?

"John3:17"

[Dr. Shane]

I don't believe for a momemnt the War on Terror is about religion. I am more inclined to believe it is about political opportunism but even have my doubts about that. But it is most certainly not about religon. Neither George Bush or the US Congress has ever called on "Christians" to go off and kill "Muslims". In fact, Bush has bent over backwards to try and make sure our motives are not misunderstood among Muslims. However even that is a side issue since this letter addressed the "excesses" of the War on Terror. By "excesses" one thinks of the prisoner scandals, war crimes and accidental killings of civilians.

[CaseyButler]

First, please show me in the Bible where it says God had sex with a human to produce Jesus.

Or tell me how God could have a "Son" without having sex, since you seem to take "Son" as literal in Jesus' case.

Next, show me in the Bible where Moses calls Jesus the Son of God, then tell me how that idea, that concept, could have been understood by the Children of Israel.

Now please tell me how you yourself interpet Jesus as being the literal "Son of God".

What does "Son of God" mean to you.. how did you arrive at that conclusion, chapter and verse from the Old Testament please, which is the Torah that Jews were supposed to hold fast to... and that they did hold fast to because they had no choice?

For those interested, at http://www.eyesalve.org there is a searchable Qur'an with concordance that you can use to find out for yourself what the Qur'an says.

I can witness the Truth of the Qur'an by testifying for it. And you can call me a liar, but I'm not responsible for explaining what God has for you to hear, that's what God has promised you through Jesus to do.

And He won't let you down.

[melvin mccarty]

Thank you Casey for bringing these facts to this discussion. I'd like to add that while those semi-civilized children of Israel were doing their thing in Palestine there were many civilizations in other parts of the world. Do we have any right to assume that the Chinese were totally ignored by their father god during those many centuries after the flood? All over the world there were people living and I believe God spoke to them in various ways. I think the philosophy espoused by certain noisy people here is quite ignorant. Jesus said he came not to condemn the world but some here feel quite free to do that very thing. Lord help us to remove the beam from our eyes.

mel

[John317]

...It is made clear time and time again in the Bible that Jesus being the "Son of God" is a metaphorical, not a literal, distinction.

I understand what you mean. However, can you offer any evidence the Qur'an teaches that Jesus Christ had existed before in heaven with God and that He died for the sins of humanity? If it doesn't, why do you think it doesn't teach this?

Does the Qur'an teach that it was Jesus Christ who made the world and sustains the universe (John 1: 1-4; Col. 1: 16, 17)? In other words, doesn't it teach that Jesus Christ was only a human, who did not exist before his birth on this earth? And finally, doesn't it teach that Muhammad was a greater prophet than Jesus? If not, where do Muslim's get their idea that Muhammad was greater?

How do you understand and apply these passages of Scripture to the Qur'an and to Muslim beliefs?

"By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God..." (1 John 4: 2).

Notice that this verse says that if someone teaches that Jesus Christ did not exist before and "come in the flesh" (i.e., as a real human being), that person or spirit is not of God. (Cf. 1 John 1: 1,2; 4:3; and 2 John 7.)

"No one has seen God [the Father] at any time. The one and only [or begotten] Son [or God], who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared [explained] Him" (John 1: 18).

"Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also" (1 John 23).

Quote:

We are already God's "offspring", Paul says Jesus is the first fruits of all of us, all of us, who, when the time comes, then become the true Spiritual Sons and Daughters of God, as Jesus is now.

About the word "offspring" (KJV) at Acts 17: 28 & 29, it is a translation of the Greek word, "genos," and means "breed" or "progeny." It is no more than saying that we are part of the human family. It does not refer to a personal loving relationship as the words, son, or children, do. We are "genos" simply by virtue of our natural birth. In the flesh we are in the image of our father, Adam. We become sons or children of God by the birth from above, by which we acquire the spiritual characteristics of God. We cannot acquire these by human effort or by being born with them. They are the result only of the Holy Spirit's work in those who accept Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. That is why John 3:3, 5 says a person must be born from above [of the Spirit, v. 6] or he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

Yes, you're right that when Jesus comes we will be sons and daughters of God, but not any more so than we can be now, through faith in Jesus Christ. Through Christ, those that have faith in Him are even now the true spiritual sons of God (1 John 3: 1, 2; John 1: 11-13). I don't know of any Bible text that says that all humans are sons of God merely by virtue of being descended from Adam. Humans become God's spiritual children only through the new birth by the Holy Spirit. John 1: 12 says, "But as many as received Him [Jesus as the Savior] to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His [Christ's] name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1: 12,13).

By faith in Christ, we are certainly God's children, but we will never be children of God in exactly the same way Christ is, because Christ is God.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Do we have any right to assume that the Chinese were totally ignored by their father god during those many centuries after the flood?

I don't think it is an issues of "rights" like civil rights or human rights. I think it is an issue of the moral obligation to find truth. Discussing Chinese and other pagan religions will really take this thread off topic. Muslims, Jews and Christian all trace their roots back to Abraham. The thread deals with a letter sent by Christians to Muslims and consequently has turned to discussing some difference between those two faiths.

[John317]

...First, please show me in the Bible where it says God had sex with a human to produce Jesus.

Or tell me how God could have a "Son" without having sex, since you seem to take "Son" as literal in Jesus' case.

Christians, of course, don't believe that God had sex with a human to produce Jesus. Christians believe just what the Bible teaches, and that is that Jesus' mother Mary became pregnant by the Holy Spirit. The angel of God told Joseph, "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." So, God placed Jesus Christ in Mary's womb but not by means of sexual intercourse.

Jesus Christ was the Son of God long before his birth into the human family on this earth. In his humanity, Jesus was the Son of Adam and the Son of Abraham and Son of David (Matt. 1: 1,2). He was the one and only Son of God by virtue of the fact that He was with God in an intimate relationship from eternity. His being a Son of God does not refer to a beginning such as we see in father-son relationship. It speaks rather of the closeness and similarity that exists between father and son.

Does the Qur'an teach anything similar to that view of Jesus Christ?

Regards,

"John 3:17"

[John317]

...The Qur'an says God never had sex with a human in order to beget a son, that having sex with His creations is beneath Him.

No different from what the Bible says.

Do you have a reference?

I'd like to look it up. I don't recall any mention of sex in the Qur'an in this context or anything at all about Allah never having had it. I only remember very distinctly, having read it many times, that Allah says he "never had a son" and "if anyone ever says Allah had a son, he is a liar." I believe those are exact words, at least in the translations I've read.

There are at least 3 translation of the Qur'an online. Perhaps you could copy and paste the lines you refer to that say Allah never had sex to produce a son.

Regards,

"John 3:17"

[CaseyButler]

Why didn't you answer me?

The Bible teaches practically none of what you've just listed. Rather the Roman church invented most of it out of the metaphor used by Paul, Peter and the rest of the apostles, which is based on prophetic metaphor...

Which is all based on the "Key of David", the Psalms.

By taking metaphor, parables, and similes literally we are falling into the snare God has laid through Jesus, who never claimed to be God, but only claimed to have lived His Ministry as God would have, were it possible.

Who "thought it not robbery" to make Himself equal to God.

Is Paul God too? Because Paul used the salutation "Peace from God the Father..."

Who gave Paul the authority to claim he was God?

I suggest you read for yourself. The "foolishness of preaching" as Paul called it has snared every religion on earth into acting as God in God's place, including Islam.

But the truth is in the scriptures, including the Qur'an.

For your information, metaphorically speaking, and in the same way you believe, every Muslim on earth believes Jesus came in the flesh, and they believe that the Word of God created the earth and was with God at the beginning and before it.

'Say: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to God (in Islam [submission])."' [ALI-Qur'an - Chapter 2:136]

No difference, yet you believe Jesus is God and Muslims believe Muhammad is the greatest of the prophets... possibly BECAUSE you believe Jesus is God?

It is written throughout the Qur'an: Every Muslim, whether they do it or not, is obligated to believe God's revelations of the Torah, the prophets, and the Gospels as the revelations that preceeded the Qur'an.

And you are obligated to serve the poor and feed the hungry and spread the love of God and Jesus Christ. You are obligated to keep His commandments if you love Him. You are obligated to give when asked, to sell all that you have and give alms, awaiting Jesus' return...

So go ahead, avatar John317 who won't even use your own name, cast the first stone...

Answer my questions please, how can Jesus be God's literally interpreted Son without God having sex with Mary?

And you condemn Muslims and Muhammad to hellfire for not accepting such a obvious fraud when taken literally, as we have?

Jesus is God's Spiritual Son, the Son of Man, the Son of all of man's accumulated Wisdom of God from God, the Word of God.

But men prefer darkness to light, for in the light they see the truth of themselves and the truth of God's love for the entire planet which they don't want to share.

God loves those whom you are condemning. Read the Qur'an to find out how much Jesus loves them too.

It's hard, I know. It was hard for me, but God made it easy shortly. It's just hard to vocalize.

Muhammad is a disciple of God, the equal of Jesus Christ who made all who believe in Him His equal.

You will see. God is the Lord of the Worlds, and every corner of this world, and He has not left the earth untended.

He will not be defined or limited by human beings, fortunately for all of us. The Gospel, the Good News that God is Love, has been spread worldwide despite those who claim to follow Jesus, a Mercy from the All-Knowing, the Self-Subsisting, the All-Powerful "I AM THAT I AM".

It's good news... It's very good news. :-)

[Parade Orange]

Jesus is GOD!

THats what makes the Gospel so compelling ..

that the GOD of the universe and Creator stepped off HIS Throne of Glory to become man!!!!! for u and me

praise GOD for that!

The Jewish people did not know they were crucifying the very GOD that worked those miracles for the hebrews in Egypt with MOSES.

JESUS led them to desert to KNOW HIM!

Jesus stooped low to mold Adam in the Garden. :Jesusfish: :grouphug4:

[Parade Orange]

I wish more christians understand that HOLY TRUTH.

[John317]

... Jesus, who never claimed to be God, but only claimed to have lived His Ministry as God would have, were it possible.

Do you believe the New Testament? I believe that the whole New Testament is God's inspired Word and that it teaches us the truth about who Jesus was and is.

Do you accept what the New Testament as well as the Old Testament say about God and about Jesus Christ?

How about 2 Peter 1: 1, which calls Jesus Christ "our God and Savior"?

Titus 2: 13 also calls Jesus Christ "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."

Five more:

1) Hebrews 1: 10, referring to Jesus Christ, calls Him "Lord" (Gk Kurios; Hebrew, Adonai) and says He laid the foundations of the earth in the beginning and that the heavens are the work of Christ's hands. (Applies Ps. 102: 25-27 to Christ Jesus.)

2) Col. 1: 16, 17, referring to Jesus Christ, says, "For by Him [the Son, Jesus Christ] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on the earth... All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist [are sustained, held together]."

3) John 20: 28: "And Thomas ANSWERED and said TO HIM [Christ], 'My Lord and my God!"

4) Isaiah 9: 6 predicted that the Child to be born would bear the name of "Mighty God." This name in the original is identical to One that is applied to Yahweh in Isaiah 10: 21. Compare carefully with Matt. 1: 21: "... and they shall call his name 'Immanuel,' which is translated, 'God [is] with us.'"

5) Col. 2: 9: "For in Him [Christ] dwells all the fulness of the Godhead [theotetos] bodily."

There are many more verses just as clear as these showing the full deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[CaseyButler]

Here are a few references...

Perhaps your memory of the Qur'an could use refreshing.

1. They say: "God has begotten a son.": Glory be to Him. Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: Everything renders worship to Him.

Chapter 2:116

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2. They say: "God has begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have you for this! Say you about God what you know not?

Chapter 10:68

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3. Say: "Praise be to God, who begets no son, and has no partner in His dominion: Nor needs He any to protect Him from humiliation: Yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!"

Chapter 17:111

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4. Further, that He may warn those also who say, "God has begotten a son.":

Chapter 18:4

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5. They say: "God Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Chapter 19:88-89

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6. It is not befitting to the majesty of God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be.", and it is.

Chapter 19:35

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7. For it is not consonant with the majesty of God Most Gracious that He should beget a son.

Chapter 19:92

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8. And they say: "God Most Gracious has begotten offspring." Glory to Him! They are but servants raised to honor.

Chapter 21:26

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9. No son did God beget, nor is there any god along with Him: If there were many gods, behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to God. He is free from the sort of things they attribute to Him!

Chapter 23:91

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10. He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: No son has He begotten, nor has He a partner in His dominion: It is He who created all things, and ordered them in due proportions.

Chapter 25:2

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11. "God has begotten children"? But they are liars!

Chapter 37:152

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12. He begets not, nor is He begotten;

Chapter 112:3

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To believe that Jesus is God literally, you must also acknowledge that Mary is the Mother of God, and indeed an Immaculate Conception, and all of the other pitfalls Rome fell into by literally interpreting what was metaphorically spoken...

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_Mary

What do you think, how much divinity should we have been associating with Mary all these years since the church decided to cast its lot with the Trinitarians?

You can believe whatever you want to believe, as long as you believe Jesus was sent by God.

Jesus told us the criterion of the judgment, and it had nothing to do with the Pharisaical doctrines we invent to get around keeping God's Law.

Jesus said, and Muhammad concurs:

"For (the Kingdom of Heaven is) as a man travelling into a far country, (who) called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

"And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

"Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made (them) other five talents.

"And likewise he that (had received) two, he also gained other two.

"But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

"After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

"And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

"His lord said unto him, Well done, (thou) good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

"He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

"Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

"And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, (there) thou hast (that is) thine.

"His lord answered and said unto him, (Thou) wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

"Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and (then) at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

"Take therefore the talent from him, and give (it) unto him which hath ten talents.

"For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth (his) sheep from the goats:

"And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

"For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

"Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed (thee)? or thirsty, and gave (thee) drink?

"When saw we thee a stranger, and took (thee) in? or naked, and clothed (thee)?

"Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done (it) unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done (it) unto me.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

"For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

"I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

"Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did (it) not to one of the least of these, ye did (it) not to me.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." [KJV-Bible - Matthew 25:14-46]

[John317]

I wish more christians understand that HOLY TRUTH.

What an awesome thought, Parade! Christ the One who bent over and molded Adam and then went to the cross for him and for all of his descendants.

[John317]

Here are a few references...

Perhaps your memory of the Qur'an could use refreshing.

1. They say: "God has begotten a son.": Glory be to Him. Nay, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: Everything renders worship to Him.

Chapter 2:116

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. They say: "God has begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have you for this! Say you about God what you know not?

Chapter 10:68

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. Say: "Praise be to God, who begets no son, and has no partner in His dominion: Nor needs He any to protect Him from humiliation: Yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!"

Chapter 17:111

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Further, that He may warn those also who say, "God has begotten a son.":

Chapter 18:4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

5. They say: "God Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed you have put forth a thing most monstrous!

Chapter 19:88-89

But these verses teach directly contrary to the the Bible. The The New Testament teaches plainly over and over again that Jesus is the only begotten [one and only] Son of God. Only one is needed: John 3: 16.

Does the Qur'an teach anything at all that indicates Jesus Christ existed with God the Father before coming to this earth?

I am sure you are aware that the Bible teaches that Jesus existed prior to coming here as a human. (See, for instance, John 17: 5, 24; 1: 1-3, 18.)

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[CaseyButler]

You can't believe the New Testament unless you are One with God.

If you're not One with God as Jesus made you in His prayer in John, if you were not there when Adam was molded and Jesus died on the cross, then you don't believe the New Testament and you don't believe the Words of Jesus Christ.

If you are One with God you were there too.

Metaphor. Words of the Spirit, Words that made most of His disciples quit, we're told in John.

Jesus set us free to learn about God directly from God, so that we would never be locked in doctrines of men as the Pharisees were. The Pharisees who had stopped seeking God, believing they knew all about Him and His plan for mankind, who stopped listening to the prophets and who expected the Messiah to be a great political and military leader who would conquer the world for Judaism using literal violence.

They believed an a Messiah who in God's eyes was beast. Most of Christianity believes in that same Messiah, and it's our church, if any church can, who is capable of coming out of captivity and exposing the folly of believing we are better or more loved by God than other people, just because of what we say rather than what we do.

Ezekiel chapter 12 describes Christianity voluntarily going into captivity of men's doctrines in order that God might finally trap the "prince" in Babylon.

Jesus taught us how to live with one another in peace, teachings we refuse to follow to this day. We will have war forever now until we want peace.

Jesus said:

"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until (the time) come when ye shall say, Blessed (is) he that cometh in the name of the Lord." [KJV-Bible - Luke 13:35]

We must want peace with our brothers and sisters, we must be willing to take up our crosses as Jesus did.

We must not be pretending that knowledge will save us at the expense of people whom we have kept ignorant so we could be wealthy.

Jesus will come when we are ready to love and serve all of God's Creations as God does. As Jesus did.