Women in Ministry

[CGMedley]

We all know that the Adventist Church does not allow woman's ordination. But if a young female feels God's call to ministry how can she respond to it? Here's one woman's story.

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2007-1534&page=8

[Woody]

Quote:

Would God really call her, a divorced, single mother of three—not to mention a woman—to this type of service?

This was the same question that my wife had. She was just given two churches to pastor this summer. It can happen. What is important is that you are ordained by God ... The human ordaination is not a big issue. Just go and do as God calls. He will provide the way and the strength.

Yes ... some will leave and not accept a woman. They will trash you car and spew hatred. But God's will ... must prevail. And it will.

Don't let your gender stop what God wants.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

We all know that the Adventist Church does not allow woman's ordination.

1) It is permissable to orgain women as a deacon.

2) It is permissable to ordain women as local elders.

3) Several local SDA chruches have locally ordained women to ministry. However, such is not recognized by the denomination. As it is not recognized, these local congregations are not considered to have violated policy, and this practice continues to be allowed. NOTE: In medecine this would be called an off-label use.

4) EGW was given the credentials of an ordained minister, several times, and over several years. She was also listed for a number of years in the denominational YEARBOOK as an ordained minister.

The blanket statement that we do not ordain women is deceptive, and lacking in content.

[Woody]

Good points Gregory. The SDA church does in fact ordain women pastors. Some do ... Some don't. So, both are correct. But to say ...

Quote:

We all know that the Adventist Church does not allow woman's ordination.

Is just not technically correct. It does allow. Because ... it does not prevent.

Ellen White signed documents indicating that she was in fact an ordained minister of the church both the GC and local conferences.

During her time there were other women pastors. Many in fact.

I think the idea that a woman can't be a pastor is a rather new invention.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi CGMedley,

A woman may "feels" called but we should not let feelings guide us. Anyone may "feel" anything for that matter, but it doesn't mean it is something that is of God.

Is it more important to become a woman pastor and cause some who don't agree to stumble or should the woman just let go of the feeling?

Here's Paul's advice on all matters of Christianity Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

If I were a woman and knew that my actions would cause discord and a riff among my fellow believers, I would not go forward with my feelings. Unless I could find a scripture that supported this (I am talking about ordination to be a pastor) I would not do it. In fact there are many verses that support men but none for women.

This is not how I feel, but what I read,

Norman

Norman

[Denise]

Quote:

Ellen G. White Volume 3 The Lonely Years 1876-1891, By Arthur L. White (1984), page 377, paragraph 2

Chapter Title: (1887-1888) Back Home in America

The last meeting took action recommending those who should receive ministerial credentials. Ellen White's name was among those voted to receive papers of the ordained ministers, although her ordination was not by the laying on of hands by men. The conference session closed on November 27.

From what I have read on EGW on being ordained, I am not convinced or believe that she was ordained biblically by laying on of hands by men. She indicated in 1909 that she had never been ordained. Yes, she was indeed ordained by God to do the work for Him, and was given a special work to do. She never exercised the special functions of an ordained minister, such as performing marriages, baptizing, and organizing local churches.

[carolaa]

The hurtful thing is that the "officially" ordained pastors get the perks. They get more pay, more responsibility, more leadership opportunities. But don't bring that up, because pastors, and women pastors in particular, are considered unspiritual if they consider those things to be important. We're getting there, but it's insanely slow. While it's important to preserve unity among the church body, I can't help but think that putting too much emphasis on unity only keeps things at their lowest common denominator. There comes a point where we have to make a decision whether we are going to do what is fair and right, or whether we will pacify the ones opposed to doing what is fair and right. Either way, people WILL leave. And many of us are afraid of that. So I have to ask myself, who is it that gives us that spirit of fear? And who is it that prefers the church to be kept at its lowest common denominator?

[Woody]

Quote:

I am not convinced or believe that she was ordained biblically by laying on of hands by men.

It was obviously not important to her. And I don't think it is that important to most women pastors. They just go about doing their God appointed tasks ... just as men do their God appointed task.

She still indicated that she was an "ordained" minister.

Most women ministers would probably say the same thing.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

"In the city of Portland the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth."--RH, May 18, 1911.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

IT WILL BE RECALLED THAT ELLEN WHITE WAS GIVEN HER FIRST VISION IN DECEMBER 1844, IN PORTLAND, MAINE. SHORTLY THEREAFTER SHE WAS PROMPTED BY THE LORD TO TELL OTHERS WHAT SHE HAD SEEN.

Daughters of God (1998), page 252, paragraph 6

[Woody]

Quote:

In fact there are many verses that support men but none for women.

This is not how I feel, but what I read,

I would suggest that you read a little more. Actually what it boils down to as with most issues ... it IS a matter of opinion. Both sides can point to scripture. But to say that ONLY your side has scripture is what really causes division.

Another example of divisive statements is the following ....

Quote:

A woman may "feels" called but we should not let feelings guide us. Anyone may "feel" anything for that matter, but it doesn't mean it is something that is of God.

A woman who is called says No different than what a man says when he is called to minister. The Lord has called me to minister. To say that a man is "called" but a woman "feels" is just chauvinistic. And it is demeaning of women. And it is arrogant. And in my opinion un-Biblical. That IS what I "feel" and I am a man.

If only there was a little more tolerance instead of "Do it our way or get out". Saying because there is division so the other side should give in ... is just nonsense. How about the men giving in. You see ... just because you think YOU have scripture on YOUR side ... does not mean that you should stomp on those who sincerely disagree.

Praise the Lord that our church is moving in the right direction. Currently there IS tolerance. Tolerance of the OLD guard who do not want to believe in the equality of women. But surely ... if you don't believe in equality ... then you can find a church with a man pastor or support the church in its decisions.

Let's all act more Christian towards those we disagree with. We all belong to the same family.

[Dr. Waite]

There is a direct command by EGW who said that she was the "LORD's Messenger" that woman should be ordained. She said that we were to train women with the full credentials of a physician and that physicians were to be gospel medical missionary evangelists and they were to be ordained. But, we like the children of Israel in the old testament are "stiff necked" and do not want to follow what the LORD's messenger tells us to do.

[Denise]

Quote:

There is a direct command by EGW who said that she was the "LORD's Messenger" that woman should be ordained. She said that we were to train women with the full credentials of a physician and that physicians were to be gospel medical missionary evangelists and they were to be ordained. But, we like the children of Israel in the old testament are "stiff necked" and do not want to follow what the LORD's messenger tells us to do.

Can you please post this where this is at in the SOP?

[Woody]

Apparently ... the words "felt called" are common. And not just to one sex.

Ellen White said ... " I asked Brother Magan if he felt called by God to take this position" RH 5-7-01

Ellen White said ... "Those who felt called to enter the ministry faced great sacrifices, for they were dependent upon the gifts placed in their hands as they moved from place to place heralding the message. Dedication and sacrifice were called for. 1BIO 383

Ellen White said ... " I felt called out" 2MR Jan. 1859

Ellen White said .... "I felt called upon to say that this fear was cherished by those who had not heard all the precious lessons given, and that therefore they were not warranted in coming to such a conclusion." 9MR No. 747

Ellen White said .... " I felt called upon to be a faithful steward of the grace of God. " 1888 ch. 4 p.53

Ellen White said .... "Dudley M. Canright, a native of Michigan, was well known to a large part of those on the campground. At the age of 21 he felt called to the ministry and went to Battle Creek to confer with James White." (Apparently men can "feel" called also.)

Surely though ... if having women "ordained" was such a terrible thing ... Ellen White would have not carried credentials saying she was. (Would not this cause a brother to "fall"). And instead she would have spoken out against it. But I sure don't hear any speaking out against it from Ellen White.

[olger]

Ministry or Leadership?

• What does the Bible say?

• Women are called to minister

• Women are not called to leadership.

• My deepest anxiety in all this is that women will take it personally, dismissing it as another chauvinist put- down. I recognize that there are festering wounds among us among us and possibly unjust suppression in some homes. I can only say, it is not in my heart to add to those hurts. To do so unnecessarily would sit heavily on my conscience. So why raise the issue? First I happen to believe in Bible truth. I base my convictions on the revealed mind of God rather than the concealed motives of man.

• Second, departure from truth carries serious danger in both belief and behavior. I confess that when I began this study in 1994, I did not realize how much was at stake.

• It is only when we find something difficult or disagreeable in the Bible that we discover our real understanding of the inspiration and authority of Scripture.

oG

[Denise]

Amen Olger! Well said!

[Woody]

Quote:

What does the Bible say?

• Women are called to minister

• Women are not called to leadership.

Apparently Ellen White and the Seventh day Adventist Church don't have the same conviction as you Olger. Not saying that you are wrong. Maybe she just did not see the light as you now see it. To think that Ellen White did not have leadership over men ... well I just don't know.

Here is a list ... but by no means a complete one ....

WOMEN PASTORS "LICENSED TO PREACH" :

1878 ANNA FULTON MINNESOTA

ELLEN S. LANE MICHIGAN

JULIA OWEN KENTUCKY-TENNESSEE

1879 LIBBIE COLLINS MINNESOTA

HATTIE ENOCH KANSAS

LIBBIE FULTON MINNESOTA

LIZZIE POST MINNESOTA

1880 ANNA JOHNSON MINNESOTA

1881 IDA W. BALLENGER ILLINOIS

HELEN L. MORSE ILLINOIS

1884 RUIE HILL KANSAS

1886 IDA W. HIBBEN ILLINOIS

1887 MRS. S. E. PIERCE VERMONT

1893 FLORA PLUMMER IOWA

1894 MARGARET CARO NEW ZEALAND

1895 MRS. S. A. LINDSAY NEW YORK

1898 SAREPTA IRISH HENRY GEN. CONF.

LULU WIGHTMAN NEW YORK

1899 EDITH BARTLETT BRITISH CONF.

1900 HETTY HASKELL GEN. CONF.

MINA ROBINSON BRITISH CONF.

1901 CARRIE V. HANSEN UTAH

EMMA HAWKINS IOWA

MRS. E. R. WILLIAMS MICHIGAN

1902 MRS. S. N. HASKELL GREATER NY

MINNIE SYPE OKLAHOMA

1904 ALMA BJDIGG FINLAND MISSION

MRS. J. E. BOND ARIZONA

BERTHA E. JORGENSEN SOUTH DAKOTA

1910 PEARL FIELD NEBRASKA

MRS. URA SPRING NEBRASKA

OH ... And Mrs. E.G.White Michigan

Either way ... The Church has decided this issue. Women WILL be and ARE in leadership over men. We now even have a women Vice President in the General Conference in addition to pastors in leadership.

And to promote an idea of which is contrary to the decision of the Church body ... can even get you disfellowshipped. So, in the sake of unity ... as my friend Norman would put it ... those with the belief that is contrary to church teachings should bow out for the sake of unity in the church so as not to cause a brother to fall.

This is his idea ... not mine. I am not afraid of a respectful dialogue. But keep in mind that the church body as represented by the General Conference in session has decided the matter.

And as the Church Manual says ..."such decisions should be submitted to by all without exception" "Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence contrary to the decision of the general body."

"The majority of the church is a power which should control its individual members" 5T 107

The issue of leadership over men has well been decided by this church body.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Ellen G. White Estate

Daughters of God (1998), page 250-

Chapter Title: Appendix C - Exhibits Relating to the Ordination of Women

5. ELLEN WHITE MADE THREE STATEMENTS WHICH ARE SOMETIMES CONSTRUED AS EVIDENCE THAT SHE SUPPORTED THE CONCEPT OF WOMEN AS ORDAINED GOSPEL MINISTERS. IN 1898 SHE DECLARED THAT "there are women who should labor in the (251) gospel ministry" (Ev 472). THE CONTEXT OF THIS STATEMENT SEEMS TO INDICATE THAT SHE IS SPEAKING OF MINISTERS' WIVES. SHE WROTE: "Letters have come to me from several, asking my advice upon the question, Should ministers' wives adopt infant children? Would I advise them to do this kind of work. To some who were regarding this matter favorably, I answered, No; God would have you help your husband in his work. The Lord has not given you children of your own; His wisdom is not to be questioned. He knows what is best. Consecrate your powers to God as a Christian worker. You can help your husband in many ways. . . .

"There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. The way is open for consecrated women. But the enemy would be pleased to have the women whom God could use to help hundreds binding up their time and strength on one helpless little mortal that requires constant care and attention."--5MR 325, 326.

IN THE YEAR 1900 ELLEN WHITE PUBLISHED TESTIMONIES, VOLUME 6, WHICH INCLUDES A SECTION TITLED "THE CANVASSER A GOSPEL WORKER." HERE THE AUTHOR STATES:

"All who desire an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future, immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God."--6T 322.

FINALLY, IN SEPTEMBER 1903 ELLEN WHITE WROTE:

"The Lord calls upon those connected with our sanitariums, publishing houses, and schools to teach the youth to do evangelistic work. Our time and energy must not be so largely employed in establishing sanitariums, food stores, and restaurants that other lines of work will be neglected. Young men and young women who should be engaged in the ministry, in Bible work, and in the canvassing work should not be bound down to mechanical employment.

"The youth should be encouraged to attend our training schools for Christian workers, which should become more and more like the schools of the prophets. These institutions have been established by the Lord, and if they are conducted in harmony with His purpose, the youth sent to them will quickly be prepared to engage in various lines of missionary work. Some will be trained to enter the field as missionary nurses, some as canvassers, and some as gospel ministers."--8T 229, 230.

6. ELLEN WHITE MADE TWO STATEMENTS ABOUT HER OWN CALL TO SERVE THE LORD AS HIS MESSENGER. SHE DECLARED:

"At the age of 78 I am still toiling. We are all in the hands of the Lord. I trust in Him; for I know that He will never leave nor forsake those who put their trust in Him. I have committed myself to His keeping.

"And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry."--RH, July 26, 1906.

"In the city of Portland the Lord ordained me as His messenger, and here my first labors were given to the cause of present truth."--RH, May 18, 1911.

IT WILL BE RECALLED THAT ELLEN WHITE WAS GIVEN HER FIRST VISION IN DECEMBER 1844, IN PORTLAND, MAINE. SHORTLY THEREAFTER SHE WAS PROMPTED BY THE LORD TO TELL OTHERS WHAT SHE HAD SEEN.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Ellen G. White Estate

Daughters of God (1998), page 253

8. IT IS LIKELY THAT ELLEN WHITE DID NOT SUGGEST AT ANY TIME THAT THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH SHOULD COMMENCE THE PRACTICE OF ORDAINING WOMEN TO THE GOSPEL MINISTRY. HER SECRETARY, C. C. CRISLER, SAYS THAT SHE WAS VERY CAUTIOUS ON THIS POINT. HERE IS THE CORRESPONDENCE RELATING TO THIS QUESTION:

"MARCH 12, 1916

"MR. CLARENCE CRISLER, SANITARIUM [CALIFORNIA]

"DEAR BROTHER: WILL YOU PLEASE INFORM ME IN REGARD TO THE SETTING APART OF WOMEN WHO CAN GIVE SOME TIME TO MISSIONARY WORK, BY LAYING ON HANDS IN PRAYER, FOUND IN REVIEW AND HERALD, BACK IN THE EARLY PART OF THE NINETIES, PROBABLY BACK IN ABOUT 1892 OR 1893, FROM THE PEN OF SISTER WHITE.

"THE REASON I ASK FOR THIS, I WAS IN A RECENT MEETING WHERE ELDER ANDROSS SET ASIDE WOMEN BY THE LAYING ON OF HANDS, AND WHEN I ASKED HIM FOR THE AUTHORITY FOR SO DOING, HE REFERRED ME TO YOU, AND AS I HAVE BEEN A BIBLE WORKER FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS AND HAVE RECENTLY BEEN GRANTED A MINISTERIAL LICENSE, I WANT THIS INFORMATION.

"PLEASE ANSWER AT ONCE, AS I WANT TO HEAR FROM YOU BEFORE I GO TO THE SOUTHWESTERN UNION CONFERENCE, WHICH CONVENES APRIL 7. PLEASE SEND ME TWO OR THREE COPIES OF HER STATEMENT, AS THE PRESIDENT OF OUR CONFERENCE WANTS ONE."-- MRS. L. E. COX, 134 AGARITA AVENUE, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS.

"MARCH 22, 1916

"MRS. L. E. COX, SAN ANTONIO, TEXAS

"DEAR SISTER: I HAVE YOUR LETTER OF THE TWELFTH, MAKING INQUIRY REGARDING THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN WHO GIVE SOME TIME TO MISSIONARY WORK--PARTICULARLY TO SOME STATEMENT WHICH YOU BELIEVE TO BE FOUND IN A REVIEW EARLY IN THE NINETIES, FROM THE PEN OF MRS. ELLEN G. WHITE.

"AS THIS QUERY WILL REQUIRE SOME STUDY ON MY PART, AND SEARCHING, AND AS I MUST GO TO MOUNTAIN VIEW IN THE MORNING FOR A FEW DAYS, I AM UNDER THE NECESSITY OF ASKING THAT YOU EXCUSE ME FROM ANSWERING FOR A FEW DAYS. UPON MY RETURN, EARLY NEXT WEEK, I WILL ENDEAVOR TO SEND YOU A REPLY, ACCOMPANYING SAME, IF POSSIBLE, WITH THE EXTRACTS CALLED FOR. HOWEVER, I MIGHT SAY THAT I HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD THESE EXTRACTS AS TEACHING POSITIVELY THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN AS MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL. I HAVE SUPPOSED, RATHER, THAT THEY REFER PRIMARILY TO THE ORDINATION OF GOD-FEARING WOMEN AS DEACONESSES IN LOCAL CHURCHES. BUT OF THIS I WILL SPEAK MORE FULLY WHEN I WRITE AGAIN.

"I HOPE TO WRITE YOU ABOUT THE TWENTY-EIGHTH, AND WILL ADDRESS YOU AS ABOVE. IF YOU ARE LEAVING SAN ANTONIO FOR OTHER PARTS, IT WOULD BE WELL FOR YOU TO LEAVE A FORWARDING ORDER, SO MAIL ADDRESSED AS ABOVE WILL REACH YOU IN DUE TIME AT THE UNION CONFERENCE."--CLARENCE CRISLER.

"JUNE 16, 1916

"MRS. L. E. COX

"DEAR SISTER: IN MY ANSWER UNDER DATE OF MARCH 22, I WAS UNABLE TO FORWARD YOU COPY OF THE REVIEW ARTICLE CALLED FOR, BUT VENTURED TO SAY, 'I HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD THESE EXTRACTS AS TEACHING POSITIVELY THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN AS MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL. I HAVE SUPPOSED, RATHER, THAT THEY REFER PRIMARILY TO THE ORDINATION OF GOD-FEARING WOMEN AS DEACONESSES IN LOCAL CHURCHES.'

"SINCE WRITING THE ABOVE, I HAVE FOUND THE ARTICLE IN QUESTION AND

255

HAVE HAD SAME COPIED. ENCLOSED FIND A COPY OF THIS ARTICLE. [RH, JULY 9, 1895.] I AM ALSO FORWARDING A COPY TO YOUR LOCAL CONFERENCE PRESIDENT, ELDER E. L. NEFF, AND TO THE PRESIDENT OF YOUR UNION, ELDER J. W. CHRISTIAN, THAT THEY MAY KNOW WHAT I AM SENDING TO YOU.

"WHILE I DO NOT MAKE IT A PART OF MY WORK TO PRESUME TO INTERPRET THAT WHICH HAS BEEN WRITTEN, YET I MAY BE PARDONED FOR EXPRESSING AS MY CONVICTION THE THOUGHT THAT THIS ARTICLE PUBLISHED IN THE REVIEW DOES NOT REFER TO THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN AS MINISTERS OF THE GOSPEL, BUT RATHER TOUCHES UPON THE QUESTION OF SETTING APART, FOR SPECIAL DUTIES IN LOCAL CHURCHES, GOD-FEARING WOMEN IN SUCH CHURCHES WHERE CIRCUMSTANCES CALL FOR SUCH ACTION.

"AND MAY I ADD THAT SISTER WHITE, PERSONALLY, WAS VERY CAREFUL ABOUT EXPRESSING HERSELF IN ANY WISE AS TO THE ADVISABILITY OF ORDAINING WOMEN AS GOSPEL MINISTERS. SHE HAS OFTEN SPOKEN OF THE PERILS THAT SUCH GENERAL PRACTICE WOULD EXPOSE THE CHURCH TO BY A GAINSAYING WORLD; BUT AS YET I HAVE NEVER SEEN FROM HER PEN ANY STATEMENT THAT WOULD SEEM TO ENCOURAGE THE FORMAL AND OFFICIAL ORDINATION OF WOMEN TO THE GOSPEL MINISTRY, TO PUBLIC LABOR SUCH AS IS ORDINARILY EXPECTED OF AN ORDAINED MINISTER.

"THIS IS NOT SUGGESTING, MUCH LESS SAYING, THAT NO WOMEN ARE FITTED FOR SUCH PUBLIC LABOR, AND THAT NONE SHOULD EVER BE ORDAINED; IT IS SIMPLY SAYING THAT SO FAR AS MY KNOWLEDGE EXTENDS, SISTER WHITE NEVER ENCOURAGED CHURCH OFFICIALS TO DEPART FROM THE GENERAL CUSTOMS OF THE CHURCH IN THOSE MATTERS."--C. C. CRISLER.

Conclusion

THE QUESTION OF WOMEN'S ORDINATION WAS NOT HIGH ON ELLEN WHITE'S AGENDA DURING HER LIFETIME. HER BEST ENERGIES WERE DIRECTED TOWARD ACHIEVING A GREATER UNITY AND A DEEPER SPIRITUALITY IN THE CHURCH.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

In those statements that I have posted there is nothing that states women should be ordained pastors.

Norman

[Woody]

Quote:

THE QUESTION OF WOMEN'S ORDINATION WAS NOT HIGH ON ELLEN WHITE'S AGENDA DURING HER LIFETIME. HER BEST ENERGIES WERE DIRECTED TOWARD ACHIEVING A GREATER UNITY AND A DEEPER SPIRITUALITY IN THE CHURCH.

Hmmmm. Must not have been the great "evil" that it is made out to be by some since she did not have it "high on her agenda" She was too busy talking about the evils of football , cricket checkers, wigs and picnics.

[Denise]

[Woody]

Quote:

It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God. Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 322. (1900)

Somehow ... she didn't manage to say that Ordination by humans was what prepared men and women to become pastors.

You can have your way that some churches will ordain only men. But since it was not a priority for EGW to comment on ... I don't know why she would neglect such an "evil". Wasn't she the messenger for this time?

Either way ... the world body of Seventh day Adventists have decided the issue ... Women WILL be and ARE in leadership over men. That HAS been decided without question.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

I would take by your comments, unless it is male, than God does not use women in the same way as men are, and if a women says she has been called by God, than she is essentially wrong.

Sorry, but I refuse to limit God! No will I attempt to speak for him in any way. We do many things and speak of many things that are not in the Bible.

And we wonder why it is that we wander this earth so long...how long will our '40 years' last?

There are some things that you are overlooking. But first the reason we are wandering this earth so long is due to you. No one else. What I mean is that if you adopt that mentality you will hasten the day of the Lord. We all need to adopt that mentality.

Rather than be offended it is always good to try and understand why a person such as me would say such things. I am not a fool nor do I think less of women but I have come to these conclusions by reason, study and the Holy Spirit.

Here's my thoughtful concern. A female ordained pastor goes to visit a single male member of the church, hmmm. Well in case you haven't noticed men are different than women when it comes to receiving care from someone. A male who is hurting and is being ministered to by a female in this setting will be drawn to her more so than what she says or what the Spirit is trying to impress him with.

The man will be attracted to her where as a woman can listen to the coucnil of a male and not be as easily attracted. This is so fundamental it should have crossed your mind. It's not that women are not good enough it's just not the best way to do things in this sin fallen world. Do you not see that?

If we start ordaining a lot of women ministers - I make a prediction this day that you will begin to hear of these pastors being sexually assaulted.

Bring another person you say or meet in a safe place. I say, why not remove the danger totally if you are so concerned.

Look at it this way, if you are able to bear with me. Read through Proverbs 31 and you get a good role of a godly woman. Her role is to be a helper to her husband. There's no denying that. If you bring it forward to the NT you hear Paul saying the same thing. 1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. The woman is to be the glory of the man as man is to be the glory of the Lord. A godly man is to speand his life glorifying the Lord and the woman/helper is to be glorifying her husband. He in turn is to love her as Christ loves the church.

I say that just to point out that I don't believe it is a good idea to have women as pastors. It will lead to problems that we have not thought of.

Norman

[Woody]

Quote:

What does the Bible say?

• Women are called to minister

• Women are not called to leadership.

The problem with this belief that the church has rejected ... is that you would have to do away with many of the gifts of the Spirit and make them gender specific. They are not.

Leadership in our church is openly given to women in all capacities of the gifts of the Spirit. This includes teaching. We even have women in leadership of all offices of the church including cradle roll and primary where there are the male species that are being told what to do. Each department of the church body is able to have women in leadership. And this is done throughout the churches. And the Church Body in GC session has approved it.

Again Olger ... I am happy for your study on the topic. Perhaps the church is wrong. That IS possible. But many scholars have studied the topic. What does the Bible say? I would hope that the church body is not 1.) Blind or 2.) Purposefully going against scripture.

It does come down to opinion and feelings and impressions of the Holy Spirit and interpretations. Whichever ones of these you believe you have .... I respect that and would not want to take that away from you. Keep up the studies. If the church does not change it's belief to yours ... I do hope that you will stay with us and not feel the issue is so "high on your agenda" that you would feel you have to leave. For the sake of unity ... we may have to accept some "mistakes" by the church.