Women in Ministry

[Woody]

The Lord's instructions to go two by two is as good of advice for men as it is for women. I see no difference. I am not aware of it being gender specific.

[Denise]

This is really interesting, but mes got to get to bed.....it's getting late and sleepy time is falling on me.... Nighty nite everyone!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

One time a friend and I were watching a prominant Evangelical woman preach. I was channel surfing and came across this broadcast. The fist thing that came out of his mouth was "Nice ***" referring to her buttock. I understood what he meant. Although she didn't have sleezy clothing it was obvious that she should have been wearing something else. This is a male thing, not that he was perverted. It just detracted from the Gospel and I knew what he was saying when he said it.

This was from a Seventh-day Adventist, so imagine what the world thinks. They would not be referring to this as a detraction. This is just an example of how the Gospel will suffer as a result of the practice.

Eyesalve folks

[Woody]

Good Night Denise.

Happy Sabbath everyone.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Is it more important to become a woman pastor and cause some who don't agree to stumble or should the woman just let go of the feeling?

One might say: Is if more important to refuse to allow a woman to become a pastor, and cause some who don't agret to stumble or should the denomination just let go of the idea that woman should not be pastors.

Folks, on this issue, at the present time, someone is going to be offended no matter what position is taken.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

From what I have read on EGW on being ordained, I am not convinced or believe that she was ordained biblically by laying on of hands by men. She indicated in 1909 that she had never been ordained. Yes, she was indeed ordained by God to do the work for Him, and was given a special work to do. She never exercised the special functions of an ordained minister, such as performing marriages, baptizing, and organizing local churches.

Denise is correct that EGW was never ordained, in a public ceremony, by males laying hands on her.

A review of the denominational records tells us that the "bretheren" considered that the evidence was clear that God had ordained her. Therefore, the beleived it would be anticlimatic, and disrespectful to God to indicate that humans had to validate what God had already demonstrated. Her credentials were issues in view of the belief that God had ordained her, and demonstrated such.

[Gregory Matthews]

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The hurtful thing is that the "officially" ordained pastors get the perks. They get more pay, more responsibility, more leadership opportunities. But don't bring that up, because pastors, and women pastors in particular, are considered unspiritual if they consider those things to be important.

Commissioned female pastors recieve, in general, the same pay and perks that they would recieve as an Ordained pastor. They servie as military chaplains--yes the SDA Chruch has female military chaplians, and there are few differences.

As an exception to the above, female Commissioned pastors cannot organize chruches, and they cannot serve as Conference Presidents. However, it should be noted that we have a female General Conference Vice-president.

It should also be noted that in our past, a female did serve as a local Conference President. The rule that such can not be done came in at a later time.

[Gregory Matthews]

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Here's my thoughtful concern. A female ordained pastor goes to visit a single male member of the church, hmmm. Well in case you haven't noticed men are different than women when it comes to receiving care from someone. A male who is hurting and is being ministered to by a female in this setting will be drawn to her more so than what she says or what the Spirit is trying to impress him with.

The man will be attracted to her where as a woman can listen to the coucnil of a male and not be as easily attracted. This is so fundamental it should have crossed your mind. It's not that women are not good enough it's just not the best way to do things in this sin fallen world. Do you not see that?

If we start ordaining a lot of women ministers - I make a prediction this day that you will begin to hear of these pastors being sexually assaulted.

You are telling us that this does not happen when a male pastor ministers to a female?

If that is your position, you have no awareness of the issues that this denominaition has faced.

You might want to read the legal record of the Odenthal case, which in previous years was well discussed in this forum.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

One time a friend and I were watching a prominant Evangelical woman preach. I was channel surfing and came across this broadcast. The fist thing that came out of his mouth was "Nice ***" referring to her buttock.

Norman, have you ever heard a female say: He has a good package?

What do you think is meant by such a statement?

[olger]

Quote:

Denise is correct that EGW was never ordained, in a public ceremony, by males laying hands on her.

A review of the denominational records tells us that the "bretheren" considered that the evidence was clear that God had ordained her. Therefore, the beleived it would be anticlimatic, and disrespectful to God to indicate that humans had to validate what God had already demonstrated.

This is a valid point.

• Did you know that until you start treating your wife like Jesus treats the church, God cannot answer your prayers? (1 Peter 3:7,12).

The Godhead

What looks like a simple difference over the interpretation of Scripture easily slips into a subtle debate about it’s authority. And behind it all, the very nature of the Godhead is being questioned. To man and woman have been given the answer to a mystery. As in Ephesians 5, the sacrificial love of the husband, and the submission of the wife illustrate to a watching world what God is like. It is a mystery made known to all. Any disruption in these roles & relations result in a witness lost and a mystery stolen from those who would benefit by it.

Creation

• Genesis 1 represents a vertical line. Both man and woman are responsible to God. Vertical equality (spiritual) in God’s sight. They are the same in the economy of salvation.

• Genesis 2 is a horizontal line (a Co-ordination). Here is the basis of inequality of role and responsibility. Man directs the partnership, and woman defers to his leadership. Here, man is linked to God and woman to man (an association that follows throughout the Bible).

Role Distinctions

Are there Biblical role distinctions between man & women?

• Notice the times that God speaks to men and women separately. Genesis 3, Ephesians 5, 1 Peter 3.

• The Bible’s assertion that Adam was the first sinner recognizes his position as the federal head of the human race (Romans 5:12).

• After the Fall, God walks through the Garden and calls out to Adam. Why not both of them, or why not to Eve? Because Adam was the head, also implied in His warning to Adam to not eat of the tree (no record of God ever telling Eve exists. It is thus assumed that as Adam was the head of the family, he was responsible to tell her).

Teaching (didasko)

• The Scriptures forbid a woman to didasko a man (1 Timothy 2:12).

• The same scriptures call for women to didasko younger women (Titus 2).

• Paul calls on Timothy to commit the gospel truths to other men so that they might didasko others (2 Timothy 2:2).

• The church of Thyatira is signally rebuked for allowing a “woman Jezebel” to didasko and seduce God’s servants (Revelation 2:20).

• A Bishop must be the husband of one wife and able to didasko (1 Timothy 3:2).

• Peter and the apostles continually didasko’d in the temple and in every home (Acts 5:42).

Meek & Quiet spirit

The Scriptures place a high regard on quietness in the woman. Why is this? Could it be that God has invested the woman with a special power of external witness? Her long hair covering for instance reveals the silent power of her submission in symbol. God has ordained that the woman represents the church (Ephesians 5 / 1 Corinthians 11:1-16). A woman who demonstrates these Godly qualities is preaching a powerful sermon by her life. It is a supreme irony when a woman rejects this heavenly calling and demands a pulpit like men.

• “Meek & gentle” may not summarize contemporary ideals of womanhood, but that does not invalidate their Scriptural relevance.

• Peter, like Paul tells wives to submit to their husbands, but never tells husbands to submit to their wives. Both lay other responsibilities on the husband.

This text is lifted from a study that I wrote in 2003. I was asked to make a presentation to the church as Men's Ministry leader. There is a lot more to the study.

Best wishes,

oG

[olger]

"You might want to read the legal record of the Odenthal case, which in previous years was well discussed in this forum." What happened in this case Greg?

Thanks,

oG

[Tom Wetmore]

Can you please post this where this is at in the SOP?

Denise, there are numerous statements from EGW advocating and supporitng women in ministry and leadership that have been posted here and on other forums. They are there if one really is willing to look for them...

Tom

[Beryl]

Quote:

This text is lifted from a study that I wrote in 2003. I was asked to make a presentation to the church as Men's Ministry leader. There is a lot more to the study.

Perhaps you should add to your study the words of Galatians 3:28,29, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

What some the men of today seem to forget is that we are not living in the Patriarchal Age -- we are living in modern society, and, as God overlooked many things that happened in those days (multiple wives, male dominance, concubines in abundance, etc. etc.)because He chooses to work within the existing cultures, so today He chooses to work within a Western culture (where that applies), and an African culture (where that applies) -- and so on.

When Jesus was on earth we find Him treating men and women with the same kindness, with the same attention. As much as possible within the prevailing culture Jesus actually lifted the status of women. Paul carried on this work. Just take the time to read Romans 16 and note the number of women listed as his fellow-workers.

The prophet Joel, under inspiration, looking ahead to the last days (where we are now) said, "I will pour out my Spirit on ALL PEOPLE. Your sons AND DAUGHTERS will prophesy [preach? minister?], your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women I will pour out my Spirit in those days."

Are we living in the last days? Yes, we have been for the last 164 years!!! It is high time that we recognised that God is no respecter of persons, He makes no distinction between male and female. It is time that we all stood side by side and got on with the work that God has given us all to do.

Beryl

[Woody]

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Denise is correct that EGW was never ordained, in a public ceremony, by males laying hands on her.

I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. Thank you Gregory. That really touched my funny bone. Good point.

[Woody]

Quote:

It is a supreme irony when a woman rejects this heavenly calling and demands a pulpit like men.

And when the Lord "calls" her to the pulpit as in the case of Ellen White and many others ... what should be our response? Should we walk out of the building?

Quote:

Peter, like Paul tells wives to submit to their husbands, but never tells husbands to submit to their wives.

Huh ... What does this have to do with the subject?

Quote:

I was asked to make a presentation to the church as Men's Ministry leader.

Did they give the Women's Ministry Leader equal time?

She could have read the decisions made by the church on this issue and the reasons the Bible and the church support it.

Folks ... the issue of "leadership" has been decided by the church. I do not see the church saying "Oh sorry ... we made a mistake ... we can't have women telling men what to do." No. The church just doesn't do that. What will happen in the future is that women's roles will just be expanded as they should. Those who refuse to accept the authority of the church on this issue may need to leave so the church can prosper. Ellen White states that this may be necessary and will only strengthen the church.

[Woody]

Quote:

Did you know that until you start treating your wife like Jesus treats the church, God cannot answer your prayers? (1 Peter 3:7,12).

Ellen White also says that if you eat meat you can't have your prayers answered. Yet, I eat meat and I have my prayers answered. Maybe we should learn that threats don't help the cause of God. We all fall short. None of us "deserve" to have our prayers answered. But it is because we are so undeserving that He does answer our prayers.

He will never leave us nor forsake us ... even if we eat meat or treat our spouses wrong.

[John317]

Quote:

Denise is correct that EGW was never ordained, in a public ceremony, by males laying hands on her.

I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. Thank you Gregory. That really touched my funny bone. Good point.

Prophets aren't ordained, because their authority doesn't derive from the church. Her ministry came directly from God. Unlike pastors and bishops, prophets are appointed by God. Since they're God's mouthpiece, God commissions them to speak for Him to the church and the world. Pastors and elders are appointed by the church to represent the church.

[Woody]

Quote:

Unlike pastors and bishops, prophets are appointed by God.

I would suggest to you that there any many Pastors who would disagree with this statement.

[John317]

Ellen White also says that if you eat meat you can't have your prayers answered. Yet, I eat meat and I have my prayers answered. Maybe we should learn that threats don't help the cause of God.

I'm quite sure that Ellen White didn't mean that God only hears the prayers of vegetarians. Do you know exactly what she said or have the reference for it?

She talks about the influence of meat-eating on our spirituality and on our mind and character. And our spirituality and the clarity of our mind do have something to do with the extent to which God is able to answer our prayers. If we are fully cooperating with God, of course God hears our prayers in way he doesn't hear our prayers when we are deliberately doing what we know to be wrong.

I don't think of her statements as "threats" any more than many of the Bible statements about consequences of wrong. God isn't telling us these things just because He wants to manipulate our behavior but because he knows what is best for us.

[John317]

Quote:

Unlike pastors and bishops, prophets are appointed by God.

I would suggest to you that there any many Pastors who would disagree with this statement.

Yes, there's no question a pastor or elder or anyone working in the church should feel sure they are "called" of God to their position or work, but this is not the same as being directly appointed or commissioned by God as a prophet is.

If a pastor or elder is voted out by the church or congregation, the pastor and elder loses his authority to speak for the church. On the other hand, even if a church refuses to listen to a prophet of God, the prophet's authority is not lessened by that fact. The church often didn't listen or pay attention to Ellen White, and still to a large degree the church doesn't listen to her, yet she is still a prophet and therefore speaks authoritatively for God to the church. In the same way, Israel often rejected the prophets sent by God but they still spoke authoritatively for God to the people, because their authority didn't come from anyone but God Himself.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

she is still a prophet and therefore speaks authoritatively for God to the church

This sounds very much like a Pope. Speaking for God. She herself said that what she says is nothing new. Her purpose was to point people to the Bible ... not to "speak for God".

The church does not take this stand. The Bible and the Bible alone is our creed.

Some feel that Ellen White is a divine interpreter of scripture. That is their privilege. But she did not believe this and in fact rejected it.

"Significantly, Ellen White refused to let Butler and his colleagues use her writings to settle the theological/biblical issues dividing the denomination. She even went so far as to tell the delegates to the 1888 General Conference session on October 24 that it was providential that she had lost the one writing in which she had purportedly identified the law in Galatians. “God,” she asserted, “has a purpose in this. He wants us to go to the Bible and get the Scripture evidence.” In other words, she REJECTED the position of Butler and others that sought to use her writings as an INSPIRED commentary on the Bible."

George Knight ... "Visions and the Word"

[John317]

Quote:

she is still a prophet and therefore speaks authoritatively for God to the church

This sounds very much like a Pope. Speaking for God. She herself said that what she says is nothing new. Her purpose was to point people to the Bible ... not to "speak for God".

The church does not take this stand. The Bible and the Bible alone is our creed.

Some feel that Ellen White is a divine interpreter of scripture. That is their privilege. But she did not believe this and in fact rejected it.

"Significantly, Ellen White refused to let Butler and his colleagues use her writings to settle the theological/biblical issues dividing the denomination. She even went so far as to tell the delegates to the 1888 General Conference session on October 24 that it was providential that she had lost the one writing in which she had purportedly identified the law in Galatians. “God,” she asserted, “has a purpose in this. He wants us to go to the Bible and get the Scripture evidence.” In other words, she REJECTED the position of Butler and others that sought to use her writings as an INSPIRED commentary on the Bible."

George Knight ... "Visions and the Word"

I don't disagree with much that you say here. I'm referring to Ellen White speaking authoritatively for God as a prophet, not as an expositor of Scripture. For instance, when God gave her visions regarding what the church, or individuals in the church, should do.

It's true the Bible gives us all the fundamentals, but most people don't study the Bible the way they should, so God sent Ellen White to express these things in our own language and to clarify some important issues in order to help the church fulfill God's will for us and so that we would be without excuse. Without Ellen White, I am sure the SDA church by now would have fallen into some of the pits that many other churches have fallen into. I thank God for her and her ministry.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

I'm quite sure that Ellen White didn't mean that God only hears the prayers of vegetarians. Do you know exactly what she said or have the reference for it?

"You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat and then your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?" 2T p.362

Surely our children need blessing despite supposed errors that parents might or might not make.(such as placing butter or meat on the table) If this statement is true ... most children in the SDA church are affected because most eat butter or meat.

One possible explanation is that Ellen felt that we had a responsiblity to answer our own prayers ....

"After we have offered our petitions, we are to answer them ourselves as far as possible, and not wait for God to do for us what we can do for ourselves." My Life Today p. 19

But then Ellen White placed the issue of "salvation" on what we eat or don't eat ....

"The light God has given on health reform is for our salvation" C.D. 461

The Bible seems to differ with some of her views ...

Clean Meats - Jesus ate Lamb at the Passover supper. (Luke 22:15)

Fish - Jesus fed thousands of people with fish. (Matt. 14:19)

Eggs - Jesus called eggs a "good gift" for children. (Luke 11:12,13)

Butter - Jesus ate butter. (Isa. 7:15)

However ... it was not her intentions that we use her as a divine commentator ...

“I have not had meat in my house for years. But do not give up the use of meat because Sister White does not eat it. I would not give a farthing for your health reform if that is what it is based upon. I want you to stand in your individual dignity and in your individual consecration before God, the whole being dedicated to Him. . . . I want you to think of these things. Do not make any human being your criterion.” MR, vol. 13, pp. 202-203.

And her "views" about promises went far beyond just food.

" But only as we live in obedience to His word can we claim the fulfillment of His promises. ... If we render to Him only a partial, halfhearted obedience, His promises will not be fulfilled to us. " MH 227

That one counts me out. I am a sinner.

I also eat bread .... " I have known that the bread upon the table, and the food generally, would hurt me; but I would be obliged to eat a little to sustain life. It is a sin in the sight of Heaven to have such food." 2T 373

When I look at what she says below ... I realize just how sinful I am ....

"Let us be hopeful and courageous. Despondency in God's service is sinful and unreasonable."

( PH151 3.5)

"It is a sin to speak impatiently and fretfully or to feel angry--even though we do not speak."

(HP 246.4)

"talking for the sake of talking, when silence would be better, is a sin."

(Ms 74, 1897. {VSS 30.3})

"It is a sin to forget, a sin to be negligent. If you form a habit of negligence, you may neglect your own soul's salvation and at last find that you are unready for the kingdom of God."

COL 359

"God will frown upon those who disregard his commandments and he cannot bless the church that retains Sabbath-breakers in its fellowship." Ellen G. White, Signs of the Times, 1890-06-02.

"The small bonnets, exposing the face and head, show a lack of modesty...The inhabitants are growing more and more corrupt..." (Testimonies, vol. 1, pp. 188,189)

"I saw that the wicked could not be benefited by our prayers"... THE CAMDON VISION June 29, 1851

Maybe my prayer will not be answered ... but then what she says below gives me hope ...

"That which God required of Adam before his fall was perfect obedience to His law. God requires now what He required of Adam, perfect obedience, righteousness without a flaw, without shortcoming in His sight." 2SM 381

For I am not alone. Many are in the same camp as me ....

In need of a Saviour / Redeemer / Friend

[John317]

One possible explanation is that Ellen felt that we had a responsiblity to answer our own prayers ....

"After we have offered our petitions, we are to answer them ourselves as far as possible, and not wait for God to do for us what we can do for ourselves." My Life Today p. 19

If you read this statement in its context, it makes perfectly good sense and is certainly in agreement with what the Bible itself teaches.

Let's show the full context of her statement:

"There are two kinds of prayer-- the prayer of form, and the prayer of faith... The most eloquent prayers are but vain repetitions if they do not express the true sentiments of the heart. But the prayer that comes from an earnest heart, when the simple wants of the soul are expressed just as we would ask an earthly friend for a favor, expecting that it would be granted-- this is the prayer of faith.... After we have offered our petitions, we are to answer them ourselves as far as possible, and not wait for God to do for us what we can do for ourselves. The help of God is held in reserve for all who demand it. Divine help is to be combined with human effort, aspiration, and energy. But we cannot reach the battlements of heaven without climbing for ourselves. WE cannot be born up by the prayers of others when we ourselves neglect to pray; for God has made no such provision for us.... The unlovely traits of our characters are not removed, and replaced by traits that re pure and lovely, without some effort on our part... In our efforts to follow the copy set us by our Lord, we shall make crooked lines..... Yet let us not cease out efforts... Temporary failure should make us lean more heavily on Christ."

To take a few simple examples: what good would it do for me as an alcoholic if I pray that God will help me overcome my alcoholism while intentionally making the deliberate choice to walk into a bar to buy a drink? Or if I pray for God to help keep me from homosexual sins while choosing to stay in a place where I know I will be tempted with them? Again, if I am worried about my daughter's sore throat, and I pray for her, doesn't it make sense that I would do everything I know to do in terms of simple home remedies to get rid of her sore throat?

I think Ellen White's point is well taken, because there are many times when people will pray for one thing but their actions can only bring about the opposite results. For instance, we may pray for health but we often do what we know is bad for our health or those things God has already revealed through either Scripture or His prophet are not good for us.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

To take a few simple examples: what good would it do for me as an alcoholic if I pray that God will help me overcome my alcoholism while intentionally making the deliberate choice to walk into a bar to buy a drink?

What good would it do? Probably nothing according to EGW. She says that unless you are without sin ... your prayers will not be answered. See previous post.

However ... the God I know ... Will answer. The alcoholic is praying for deliverance from an ADDICTION. Of course he will make a deliberate choice to drink. That is called ADDICTION. And he will continue to sin until God gives him the victory.

God will not caste out those who come to him in need.

Quote:

I think Ellen White's point is well taken, because there are many times when people will pray for one thing but their actions can only bring about the opposite results.

Yes. We all do that. But most certainly an alcoholic does that. I am no different. I am addicted to sin. Some sins ... I do actions that will not bring about a good result. But I do not wish to sin. That which I hate ... I do. That which I love I don't do. I am making progress with age and repitition. But, I bring nothing to the table that would make me worthy. For I am unworthy. Praise God though. Even though I am a sinner ... He DOES answer my prayers.