Women in Ministry

[Tom Wetmore]

For those who seem confused about EGW's position regarding women in ministry and leadership, here is a sampling:

Women in Ministry - EGW

“The refining, softening influence of Christian women is needed in the great work of preaching the truth…” -- RH, Jan 2, 1879.

"she has a ministerial license and bears many burdens of their church at Napier. She speaks to the people, is intelligent and every way capable." -- Mss 22, 1893.

"It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and in life." Letter 33, 1879, p. 2.

“…introducing our publications into families,

conversing, and praying with and for them is a good work, AND ONE WHICH WILL EDUCATE MEN AND WOMEN TO DO PASTORAL LABOR." -- RH, April 4, 1882.

"The Lord has given Christ to the world for ministry. Merely to preach the Word is not ministry. The Lord desires His ministering servants to occupy a place worthy of the highest consideration. In the mind of God, the ministry of men and women existed before the world was created. He determined that His ministers should have a perfect exemplification of Himself and His purposes.” -- Diary entry March 12, 1891, Ms 23-1891.

"to create a fund from my tithe money, to pay these women who are accomplishing just as essential work as the ministers are doing, and this tithe I will reserve for work in the same line as that of the ministers, hunting for souls, fishing for souls." -- to Brethren Irwin, Evans, Smith and Jones, April 21, 1898, I191a-1898.

"Injustice has been done to women who labor just as devotedly as their husbands, and who are recognized by God as being as necessary to the work of ministry as their husbands. The method of paying men-laborers and not their wives, is a plan not after the Lord's order....This arrangement...is liable to discourage our sisters from qualifying themselves for the work they should engage in [i.e., ministry]....This question is not for men to settle. The Lord has settled it. You are to do your duty to the women who labor in the gospel.” -- Mss 43a-1898.

"God wants workers who can carry the truth to all classes, high and low, rich and poor. In this work women may act an important part. God grant that those who read these words may put forth earnest efforts to present an open door for consecrated women to enter the field." -- Mss 43a, 1897.

"You are to do your duty to the WOMEN WHO LABOR IN THE GOSPEL, WHOSE WORK TESTIFIES THAT THEY ARE ESSENTIAL TO CARRY THE TRUTH INTO FAMILIES. THEIR WORK IS JUST THE WORK THAT MUST BE DONE. In many respects a woman can impart knowledge to her sisters that a man cannot. The cause would suffer great loss without this kind of labor. AGAIN AND AGAIN THE LORD HAS SHOWN ME THAT WOMEN TEACHERS ARE JUST AS GREATLY NEEDED TO DO THE WORK TO WHICH HE HAS APPOINTED THEM AS ARE MEN." -- Mss 43a-1898.

"There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. THE WAY IS OPEN FOR CONSECRATED WOMEN." -- Mss. 43a, 1898, Evangelism 472.

"All who wish an opportunity for true ministry, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to THOSE WHO ARE FITTING THEMSELVES FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, TO BECOME PASTORS TO THE FLOCK OF GOD." -- RH, January 15, 1901.

"If men and women would act as the Lord's helping hand, doing deeds of love and kindness, uplifting the oppressed, rescuing those ready to perish, the glory of the Lord would be their rearguard....Of those who act as his helping hand the Lord says, 'Ye shall be named priests of the Lord; men shall call you the ministers of our God.'" -- Jan 17, 1901, B7-1901.

"Young men and young women who should be engaged in the ministry, in Bible work, and in the canvassing work, should not be bound down to mechanical employment." -- RH, October 15, 1903.

Tom

[Woody]

Thank you Tom.

I think that makes it crystal clear.

Quote:

This question is not for men to settle. The Lord has settled it. You are to do your duty to the women who labor in the gospel.” -- Mss 43a-1898.

Not only has the Lord settled the issue ... the church has recognized this and given it's stamp of approval. Yet, some want to go against the Church and the Lord. How could the Lord be any more clear. We must abide by the word of the Lord rather than our own feelings and desires that are molded by old traditions and cultural influences.

Hopefully we can move on. The church has recognized that women are to be leaders over men. The will of the church should be followed by those how call themselves Seventh day Adventists so that we can get on with the business of God's work.

[John317]

Do you accept Ellen White as a prophet and as an authority on all issues? I do.

You've come up with an impressive list of quotes on the subject of women's work in the church. I intend to do more research.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

Do you accept Ellen White as a prophet and as an authority on all issues?

This was not directed towards me ... but personally I do not make Ellen White an authority on all issues. I consider the Bible the ultimate authority. All others are tested by this. She is a commentator and if she agrees with scripture then I accept it. It she doesn't then it is rejected.

This is exactly what she told us to do.

Quote:

"If the Testimonies speak not according to the word of God, reject them." 5T 691

I place NO person in "authority". I place God in authority through His Word. I do not need Ellen White to interpret. Her only purpose is to point me to scripture.

Quote:

"Alonzo T. Jones, one of Ellen White’s reforming associates during the 1888 era. In his widely read week of prayer reading for 1894, titled “The Gifts: Their Presence and Object,” Jones pointed out that the Holy Spirit is the only interpreter of the Bible and that the Spirit’s “interpretation is infallible.” From that proposition he moved to the role of Ellen White’s testimonies, correctly using her statements that the purpose of her writings was not to provide new information, but to lead her readers to the Bible itself"

Quote:

"Significantly, Ellen White refused to let Butler and his colleagues use her writings to settle the theological/biblical issues dividing the denomination. She even went so far as to tell the delegates to the 1888 General Conference session on October 24 that it was providential that she had lost the one writing in which she had purportedly identified the law in Galatians. “God,” she asserted, “has a purpose in this. He wants us to go to the Bible and get the Scripture evidence.” In other words, she rejected the position of Butler and others that sought to use her writings as an inspired commentary on the Bible."

[olger]

Hi Beryl. Thanks for the reference to Galatians 3:28. I also appreciate the reference to Joel 2.

Galatians 3:28•

This whole letter deals with two dangers in Galatia: Building faith on the Law of Moses rather than the promise of Abraham. Second, interpreting liberty of the Spirit as license for the flesh.

• The immediate context of chapter 3 has no reference to the roles or relationships of men and women (nor are they mentioned anywhere else in the whole letter).

• The theme is the inheritance of the blessing promised to Abraham and his “seed.” It could not be inherited by a slave or a girl or a Gentile.

• Jesus fulfills the conditions and is the obvious son and “heir.” How then can anyone else share in this inheritance and blessing? The answer is simple.

• By total identification with Christ anyone can claim the inheritance !! Through faith in Jesus a person is baptized into Him, crucified with him (2:20) is clothed with Him, is in Him, and belongs to Him (verse 29).

• Literal translation is “There cannot be male and female for all of you are one male in Christ” (Compare with the “one new man” in Ephesians 2:15).

• So identification with Christ takes on His identity as that one free Jewish male descendant of Abraham—which qualifies us to inherit the promised blessing which comes to us through Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:11, 2:6, 19; 3:6)

• So all believers are sons in Christ. This could explain why the early church was addressed collectively as brothers never as brothers and sisters (an individual believer was sometimes referred to as “sister”).

• Because all are sons, all are heirs, which daughters could never be (3:29). So in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, only Jew; neither slave nor free, only free’ not male and female, only male.

• If this verse is taken out of it’s inheritance context and taken to abolish all sexual differences (neutered in Christ), it would contradict Paul’s teachings on homosexual relations (Romans 1-24-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9), on the duties of husbands and wives (Colossians 3:18-19; (Ephesians 5:22-23), on slaves’ attitude to their masters (Ephesians 6:5-9; Colossians 3:23—4:1) and in particular his qualifications of women’s ministry in the church (1 Corinthians 11:3-16; 14:33-38; 1 Timothy 2:11-14). To accuse Paul of such inconsistency is a grave charge, with implications for the inspiration of the whole Scripture as well as his personal Christian integrity. To enlarge one verse of Scripture into a social or ecclesiastical manifesto is unwarranted and misleading, particularly in view of Paul’s specific teaching on the subject.

Christian Feminists have hailed this statement in Galatians as the epitome of their inspiration—and hated him for almost everything else he said on the subject!

Christian regards,

oG

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Norman, have you ever heard a female say: He has a good package?

What do you think is meant by such a statement?

Gregory, when you hear about infidelity, where does the blame often lie, with men or women? Who is more prone to make sexual comments? How many times have you heard of a woman raping a man? Men are visual being and that is where Satan tempts us. This is not how a woman is tempted for the most part.

Ther are far more men who are prone to say something like what my friend said than are woman and everyone knows this.

Norman

[Denise]

Good evening Olger,

I just wanted to jump in and let you know I have read your two posts you posted today, and to let you know I really enjoy and appreciate, and agree on what you post. Have you read the book "Prove All Things" a response to Women in Ministry? It really explains the role of the woman and the man, the way you explained it in your post before this one. It's a great book, and I am learning so much from it. It explains it so well. God Bless You Olger!

[Woody]

It is a shame that these offshoots try to undermine what the Church has decided in General Conference Session. Most of them feel that the church is Babylon. They end up leaving the church thinking they are better.

What we all need to do is to unite under a common mission and not let little things like being inclusive of women ... be a stumbling block.

The Gospel is simple. Let just get out and share it. And not be concerned with divisive issues like WHO is doing it.

That is my prayer.

[olger]

Thank you Sister.

I also appreciate the uplifting Scriptural & SOP posts that you place on CA. I read those a lot.

I do have the book "Prove All Things". I have come to appreciate Sam Pipim's comittment to the Bible. I have met Sam. He was in the audience when I spoke in Nashville several years ago, and we talked afterwards. He is a very kind & wise brother. Dr. LaRondelle told me that Sam was his brightest and most gracious student.

God bless you, my sister. This church is benefitted by you.

oG

[Denise]

Your Welcome my brother, and thank you so much for your encouragement. God Bless!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Ah yes..it's the womens fault for his remarks..wonder where his mind was before looking! Nothing new here, its always been a womens fault.

Here's what I said, in case you read over it,

Quote:

This is a male thing, not that he was perverted.

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Male pastors have temptations when dealing with women, so would it not be better to have a women pastor deal with women?

No, the pastor's wife should be the one.

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One thing left out in all of this is that God is the leader and protector. He can look after both sexes, he did create both.

What happened to King David with Bathsheba? Where was God then? God does not step in to prevent something that we can.

You are not reading what I am saying and I have no idea what you are thinking but it appears to me that you don't understand what I am trying to to say. So I will make it simple. Men should be ordained as Jesus gave us the example. Women should not. It does not mean that women are not capable of doing much good and in some cases they can do more than the ordained pastor. I am not saying anything bad against women, I just look at what the Bible & SOP says and do not see any counsel for ordination of women as pastors.

Norman

Quote:

Which one is weaker in the sight of God, are we to continue to set up shaky reasons for not using women, or is it just fear and not trusting fully in God?

It really quite simple, Trust God and lean not to your own understanding. What does the scripture say? Show me precedence for ordination of women.

Norman

[Woody]

Quote:

No, the pastor's wife should be the one.

As a Pastors Spouse .... I can clearly say that this is not the job of a Pastor's spouse. But it does bring a good belly chuckle.

Most spouses have jobs outside the Denomination or are not able or willing to do as you say.

It is kinda a good laugh for us spouses. The first question I get when we go to a church is .... Do you play the piano?

Spouses may or may not have the skills or desire to do as you say. And most likely ... they are not called to do said job. Why would you want someone not called just to protect your belief that a woman can't proclaim the gospel.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

"You might want to read the legal record of the Odenthal case, which in previous years was well discussed in this forum." What happened in this case Greg?

The Odenthal case went back and forth between the District Court, the Aplelate Court, and finally the State Supreme Court.

The Conference had not purchased liability insurance from Risk Management (SDA), but had purachased it from a commercial insurance company, which defended the Confernce.

After the Statea Suprement Court rulled that the case could go to trial, the insurance company reached an out of court settlement with Mr. Odenthal. He was paid a very substantial sum of money, and the case was dismissed with predjuce--which meant that it could not be tried at a later time.

The result of this settlement was the following:

1) The Conferce was not determined by a court of law to have committed any wrong.

2) Prescedent was limited to the State in which the case was tried.

Following the end of the case, Mr. Odenthal married, and he has gotten on with his life.

Mr. Odenthal's ex-wife has not had a real happy time. The grass was not greener on the other side of the fence.

The SDA pastor's ex-wife began her new life from a shelter for women.

The involved SDA pastor, well . . .

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Gregory, when you hear about infidelity, where does the blame often lie, with men or women? Who is more prone to make sexual comments? How many times have you heard of a woman raping a man? Men are visual being and that is where Satan tempts us. This is not how a woman is tempted for the most part.

Ther are far more men who are prone to say something like what my friend said than are woman and everyone knows this.

So, what everyone knows is accurate! And there was a tme that everyone knews that the world was flat--Well, I still know that it is flat. I put a level on the street in frot of my house today. It was level. If the earth had not been flat, the level would not have measured level.

Norman, my friend (and I count you as one), There is some truth in your comment. But, in the overall, it does not reflect the truth that exists today. The view you have presented of women seems to me to go back in time to a much earlier period. Well the Flat Earth Society still exists.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

It is a shame that these offshoots try to undermine what the Church has decided in General Conference Session.

Please show reference for this otherwise it's just hearsay or rumors. If you can't show refernce for it, then where are you getting this from. I have not found this in the latest SDA manual. Here's what I did find:

Quote:

On assignment to a local church as pastor, the ordained minister ranks above the local elder or elders; these serve as his assistants. By virtue of his ordination to the ministry he is qualified to function in all church rites and ceremonies. He should be the spiritual leader and adviser

MINISTERS AND WORKERS 147

of the church. He should instruct the church officers in their duties and plan with them for all lines of church work and activity.

Quote:

Licensed Ministers

To give young men an opportunity to demonstrate their call to the ministry, especially in the area of soul winning, prospective candidates are granted ministerial licenses by the conference/mission/field. The granting of such licenses confers the opportunity and the right to develop the ministerial gift. The licensed minister is authorized to preach, to engage in evangelism, to lead out in outreach (missionary) work, and to assist in any church activities.

I don't see any mention of she or young women here.

Quote:

What we all need to do is to unite under a common mission and not let little things like being inclusive of women ... be a stumbling block.

What we all need to do is follow the Bible and stop trying to improve on what God has said and ordained.

Quote:

The Gospel is simple. Let just get out and share it. And not be concerned with divisive issues like WHO is doing it.

Tell me what do you think of this story - And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. Act 19:14-16

Folks, read your Bibles and don't listen to anything anyone says. That is our only safety

[Woody]

Just look around. The church has authorized women in leadership over men. If you didn't know it ... there are many women serving as Pastors. My wife has two churches. The General Conference Session has settled it as has the Lord. They authorized a woman as Vice President ... what more proof do you need. If she is not in leadership over men ... then just who is in leadership?

Quote:

"Resolved, that the highest authority under God among Seventh day Adventists is found in the will of the body of that people, as expressed in the decisions of the General Conference when acting within its proper jurisdiction; and that such decisions should be submitted to by all without exception." RH. vol 50 No.14, p.106 ( Also in the church manual.)

"But when, in a General Conference, the judgment of the brethren assembled from all parts of the field is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be stubbornly maintained, but surrendered. Never should a laborer regard as a virtue the persistent maintenance of his position of independence, contrary to the decision of the general body." {9T 260.1}

" the majority of the church is a power which should control its individual member" 5T 107

Read your Bibles. We are to follow the Bible and not old traditions and cultural mandates.

[Beryl]

Quote:

And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. Act 19:14-16

What's that got to do with women in ministry? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! It is all about men getting things wrong! (again?)

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Prophets aren't ordained, because their authority doesn't derive from the church. Her ministry came directly from God. Unlike pastors and bishops, prophets are appointed by God. Since they're God's mouthpiece, God commissions them to speak for Him to the church and the world. Pastors and elders are appointed by the church to represent the church.

John when you tell us that a prophet is God's mouthpiece, you are getting into the area of verbal inspiration. I will suggest that Ellen White is clear in her rejection of such a view as applied to herself.

We were not discussing the ordination of prophets. My comment was that the denomination issued EGW the credentials of an ordained minister, more than once, and listed her in the YEARBOOK as an ordained minister for several years.

To be clear, EGW was never issued any credentials as a prophet. She was never listed in the YEARBOOK as a prophet, only as an ordained minister.

As I stated, earlier, EGW was never ordained, in a public ceremony by males who laid hands on her! She was only issued the credentials of an ordained minister.

This raised a fundamential question: What makes one to be an ordained minister in the setting of our denomination.

Is is a public ceremony where males lay hands on someone?

Is it issuing the credentials?

What if the public ceremony has taken place, but no credentials are issued?

I will suggest that the issuance of the credentials in the SDA context is what determines that a person is an ordained SDA minister. Ellen White was issued such.

I mentioned earlier that women are presently ordained in the SDA Chruch as deacons and local elders. In addition, some local congregations have held public ceremonies in which women were ordained to ministry. However, in none of these cases have women ever been issues the credentials of an ordained minister by this denomination. As I place importance on the credentials, I say that these women are not recognized, ordained SDA ministers.

Ellen White was so recognized. She had the credentials. She was listed in the YEARBOOK as such. In additon, during her time people who did not think that females should be ordained considerd that the denomination had violated Biblical principles in that it had made her an ordained SDA minister. Many years ago, I read denominational publications on EGWs status. It is clear from the discussion by those who considered the credentials to be wrong that EGW was considered by the people to be an ordained SDA minister.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Norman, my friend (and I count you as one), There is some truth in your comment. But, in the overall, it does not reflect the truth that exists today. The view you have presented of women seems to me to go back in time to a much earlier period. Well the Flat Earth Society still exists.

Gregory, there are some things that will never change. The makeup of women and men is one. No amount of time will change the fact that women like to shop and men don't

Biblical fact #1 Men will always be the head of a women. That's never going to change. Is that a bad thing? No it's not if rightly understood. Fact #2 women will always be the glory of a man. God will not change that. Fact #3 Ordination of women is not found in the Bible. Fact#4 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. This has never changed either and will not till Christ returns. This is pretty old stuff Gregory but it is as true today as it was when it was written.

The ordination of women is not Biblical, period. We like to think we can change things for the better but some things will never change. I will say this and it may offend but it is truth. Eve was deceived but Adam was not. This is the lot that has been passed down to women and therefore they should not be ordained pastors where they can be deceived by evil men and bring shame to the Gospel and the church of God.

Behold, this have I found, saith the preacher, counting one by one, to find out the account: Which yet my soul seeketh, but I find not: one man among a thousand have I found; but a woman among all those have I not found. Ecc 7:27, 28

interesting huh?

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

What's that got to do with women in ministry? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! It is all about men getting things wrong! (again?)

Here's why I posted that. REdwood was saying that we should preach the Gospel and it doesn't matter who does it. These seven sons of Sceva were trying to bring God's message to a possessed man and they were told, I know Jesus and Paul but who are you. Then the one beat the pants off all 7 of them. This tells us that it is important who preaches the Gospel.

Just like the time God set out to kill Moses.

Norman

[Woody]

Thank you Gregory for clearly defining what we are talking about. If somehow it was wrong for a women to be an "ordained minister" .. WHY ... tell me WHY would a wise woman accept and sign such a document over and over again. She clearly considered herself an ordained minister. If it was such a terrible thing to be an ordained minister as a women ... she would either have not done it or would have spoken out about the "important" issue.

[Woody]

Quote:

Biblical fact #1 Men will always be the head of a women. That's never going to change. Is that a bad thing? No it's not if rightly understood.

The church by the authority invested in it has said that a woman can be in authority over a man. We are not talking about marriage here ... we are talking about the ministry.

Quote:

Fact #2 women will always be the glory of a man. God will not change that.

As man will be the glory of woman. The Bible is clear about equality folks . Just read your Bibles. There is neither Jew or Greek. All are equal.

Quote:

Fact #3 Ordination of women is not found in the Bible.

Neither is ordination found in the Bible for men as we now know it. And neither is Pathfinders.

Quote:

Fact#4 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. This has never changed either and will not till Christ returns.

The church by the authority invested in it has decided that a woman is to be in leadership positions over men and vis versa.

I would hope that those who oppose the authority of the church would decide that they would accept it and join in the spreading of the gospel for the sake of unity ... or leave. This was the instruction of EGW. Promoting discontent does not further the cause of God. I am not directing this at anyone in particular. I just hope that we as a church can unite .

I have had to accept many decision of that church that I am opposed to. This one I agree with. And I would hope that while it is OK to voice opinions ... it is also important to accept and move forward.

1 Peter 2:9-10 "But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. "

I hope that each of us realizes that we are now a royal priesthood. We are all called to go forth ... males and females alike. We now ALL have mercy and need to show it to each other ... male and females.

Lets unite for this purpose.

That is my prayer for this church.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

"Resolved, that the highest authority under God among Seventh day Adventists is found in the will of the body of that people, as expressed in the decisions of the General Conference when acting within its proper jurisdiction; and that such decisions should be submitted to by all without exception." RH. vol 50 No.14, p.106

If they go against Scripture they are out of their jurisdiction. Their jurisdiction comes from the Bible and there is no presidence for this, period.

Quote:

They authorized a woman as Vice President ... what more proof do you need. If she is not in leadership over men ... then just who is in leadership?

Error does not make truth. Remeber this? "Though hand join in hand the wicked shall not be unpunished" Ps 11:21

Quote:

They authorized a woman as Vice President

what does authorized mean? Ordained? Licensed? Granted permission? Give us some facts and quotes here. How am I. (offshoot man) supposed to ever be conviceted of my error if I have no, "Thus Saith the Lord"

This sounds strange from a person who says he doesn't need EGW and considers her a commentator but counts "that the highest authority under God among Seventh day Adventists is found in the will of the body of that people" She said that, where is that found in the Bible? Yet you believe it? I do but why do you considering all you have said about her?

Stick to your Bibles folks, there can nothing good comes from listening to the doctrines of men that are unsupported in the Bible.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Quote:Biblical fact #1 Men will always be the head of a women. That's never going to change. Is that a bad thing? No it's not if rightly understood.

The church by the authority invested in it has said that a woman can be in authority over a man. We are not talking about marriage here ... we are talking about the ministry.

Quote:Fact #2 women will always be the glory of a man. God will not change that.

As man will be the glory of woman. The Bible is clear about equality folks . Just read your Bibles. There is neither Jew or Greek. All are equal.

Quote:Fact #3 Ordination of women is not found in the Bible.

Neither is ordination found in the Bible for men. And neither is Pathfinders.

Quote:Fact#4 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. This has never changed either and will not till Christ returns.

The church by the authority invested in it has decided that a woman is to be in leadership positions over men and vis versa.

I would hope that those who oppose the authority of the church would decide that they would accept it and join in the spreading of the gospel for the sake of unity ... or leave. This was the instruction of EGW. Promoting discontent does not further the cause of God. I am not direction this at anyone in particular. I just hope that we as a church can unite .

I have had to accept many decision of that church that I am opposed to. This one I agree with. And I would hope that while it is OK to voice opinions ... it is also important to accept and move forward.

That is my prayer for this church.

Quote:

The church by the authority invested in it has said that a woman can be in authority over a man.

A certain church has also ordained Sunday as the Sabbath, show me the scripture for that. You can't (and yet there is very little in the NT concerning Sabbath observance) Does that make Sunday the Sabbath?

Quote:

As man will be the glory of woman. The Bible is clear about equality folks . Just read your Bibles. There is neither Jew or Greek. All are equal.

Man will not be the glory of women, ever. You misinterpret what Paul is saying. There is no Greek or jew, man or woman, free or bond when it comes to salvation. this is a common misunderstanding among people who don't read and study carefully. The Jews are no longer the people of God sanctified by God to reveal the Messiah to the world. This was Pauls point.

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Neither is ordination found in the Bible for men

You are kidding right? read these, 1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

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Promoting discontent does not further the cause of God.

This is one reason why it has never been done in the past. There will be conflicts whether you like it or not and some of it is caused by this foolish move. This will not forward the Gospel but will cause division just about everywhere it is introduced. There are greater things to be concerned with and to be involved with than the murmuring cry of a few women who will not be what God has called them to be.

[Woody]

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General Conference when acting within its proper jurisdiction

Norman ... "jurdisdiction means that the decision comes from a properly called , quorumed and authorized General Conference Session. This was done.

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what does authorized mean? Ordained? Licensed? Granted permission? Give us some facts and quotes here.

Norman ... "authorized" means that they voted her into office ... thereby authorizing her to have authority over men.

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How am I. (offshoot man) supposed to ever be conviceted of my error if I have no, "Thus Saith the Lord"

I have shown you the quotes and you do not accept them. I am sorry that you consider your self an offshoot. I am sorry that you do not abide by the decisions of the church ... thereby excluding yourself. Ellen White has strong words about people who independently set up judgment in opposition to the Church in Session. I am sorry that you have chosen to do this.

Quote:

This sounds strange from a person who says he doesn't need EGW and considers her a commentator but counts "that the highest authority under God among Seventh day Adventists is found in the will of the body of that people"

These are not MY words. They are the words of Ellen White and the Church that I believe in and belong to. I do not always agree with each decision. But I do submit to the authority as dictated by the Church. I submit for the sake of unity.

I believe that God is with this church. I do not set up myself and my judgment as an independent arbitrator of truth. God is leading this church and I want to be a part of the movement.

God's church will move forward. It will not fail.