Women in Ministry

[Woody]

Norman. I consider you a friend. A fellow brother. But if you can't abide with conviction on this topic ... that is fine. I do not fault you. I just think that according to the structure of the church ... that you don't fit into what is established.

The authority of the church must be maintained for unity. Ellen White is clear on this. These are the rules of the organization.

The good side is that you should not feel it is bad to separate yourself from an organization. You are still my Christian brother. You remain a part of the Body of Christ even if you want to no longer subscribe to the SDA organization. And I don't know if that is your decision. It just sounds like it.

Please know that you remain loved and accepted IN Christ no matter what you belief. We can all disagree. Knowledge will not save us. We can move forward knowing that we are united through the blood of Christ which saves both of us.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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Norman ... "jurdisdiction means that the decision comes from a properly called , quorumed and authorized General Conference Session. This was done.

That maybe what you interpret it as, but that is not what she was saying. The GC cannot make changes that are not scriptural. That is not their proper jurisdiction.

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Norman ... "authorized" means that they voted her into office ... thereby authorizing her to have authority over men.

That does not mean ordained. And until it can be shown Biblically that this can be supported her appointment means nothing. I have nothing against her and amd sure she is a fine woman, but no one can take that which God has not given. The GC can't do it either. I need a thus saith the Lord and I will accept it, otherwise it's tares growing with the wheat.

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I have shown you the quotes and you do not accept them.

I'm sorry I must have missed them, where are they? I don't see them on this thread.

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I am sorry that you consider your self an offshoot. I am sorry that you do not abide by the decisions of the church ... thereby excluding yourself.

Yes, I was following your lead with the offshoot comment. I don't abide by any decicion that is not scriptural, it doesn't matter who proclaims it and if I exclude myself from error then praise God that I still have ears to hear the Spirit to make good decisions.

I know that if this were taken up in a vote amount all Seventh-day Adventist, the voice of God would be heard loud and clear, We do not want women as ordained pastors.

You are out of touch with the common man and woman or God.

[Woody]

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You are kidding right? read these, 1Ti 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure. Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

We are ALL ordained. But what I meant was that what we practice as "ordination" is not in the Bible. It was not meant for us to be gender specific as it is now. The word ordination is not found in the bible ... therefore it is not Biblical. RIGHT !!!

I think it wise to go to the context of our Biblical instructions. Being so literal on what is Biblical and what is not ... does not get us far. Like I said ... under your terms ... Pathfinders is not Biblical. SO, do we live in the dark ages and not move forward. I think God wants progress.

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I know that if this were taken up in a vote amount all Seventh-day Adventist, the voice of God would be heard loud and clear

Women in leadership has been taken up by the General Conference session. It was an official vote that passed to accept a woman as Vice President. I was present. I can personally vouch for it.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Redwood, because I stand for truth like a man. LOL, It does not mean that I am leaving or even ever thought of leaving. I have left in the past and stayed out for 10 years. I have no plans of ever doing that again. This is God true church and there is no other. And faulty and erring as it is He still loves it as I do. This will not cause me to leave however, the time will come that because of my Biblical beliefs I may be asked to leave. God's children know this will happen.

I can agree with you on one thing, we can disagree and still be pleasant.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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We are ALL ordained. But what I meant was that what we practice as "ordination" is not in the Bible.

We ordain by the laying on of hands and this is Biblical. In this sense, we are not all ordained. There is really only one form of ordination. Jesus ordained 12 and He told them things that others were not privy to. He had a lot of instruction for them that He did not reveal to the common Israelite, priest, lawyers or scribes.

We can claim to be ordained but that is just words. Ordination brings with it spritual authority that has power and gets results. Otherwise Christ would have never ordained the 12.

[Woody]

I think all who oppose church authority should carefully look at the following words of our prophet which are included in the Church Manual. Prayerful thought should be given to this.

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"The world's Redeemer has invested great power with His church. He states the rules to be applied in cases of trial with its members. After He has given explicit directions as to the course to be pursued, He says: "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Thus even the heavenly authority ratifies the discipline of the church in regard to its members when the Bible rule has been followed." {3T 428.1}

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"The word of God does not give LICENSE for one man to set up HIS judgment in OPPOSITION to the judgment of the CHURCH, neither is he allowed to URGE his opinions AGAINST the opinions of the church. If there were no church discipline and government, the church would go to fragments; it could not hold together as a body. There have ever been individuals of independent minds who have CLAIMED that they were RIGHT, that God had especially taught, IMPRESSED, and led THEM. Each has a THEORY of his own, views peculiar to himself, and each CLAIMS that his views are in accordance with the word of God. Each one has a different THEORY and faith, yet each claims SPECIAL light from God. These draw away from the body, and each one is a separate church of HIMSELF. All these cannot be right, yet they all CLAIM to be led of the Lord. The word of Inspiration is not Yea and Nay, but Yea and Amen in Christ Jesus." 3T 428

AMEN

AND I do hope that these words will inspire all to join the church and unite in our common goals. The goal is what is important ... not the methodology.

[Woody]

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We can claim to be ordained but that is just words. Ordination brings with it spritual authority that has power and gets results.

I don't believe they are just words. I believe that there is power in being called by God to do a job. We do not just have to be chosen by men with a laying on of hands.

It is interesting that you do not trust the judgment of the General Conference in session but you trust a local conference office to "ordain" by the laying on of hands.

Ellen White did not see this as necessary .... and many pastors who are called of God to serve and who are given great power by God to do that task ... they do not see it as imparative. They just continue to go about there appointed work without the ordination of men.

I would ask you then ... is it your personal belief that the Vice president of the General Conference does not have authority or even power because she was not ordained? I think that Ellen White being called an ordained mininster would set the precident that being "called" by God is just as important as being "called" by men.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Testimonies for the Church Volume Three (1872-1875), page 328, paragraph 1

Chapter Title: To a Young Minister and His Wife

There are ever to be found those who will sympathize with those who are wrong. Satan had sympathizers in heaven, and took large numbers of the angels with him. God and Christ and heavenly angels were on one side, and Satan on the other. Notwithstanding the infinite power and majesty of God and Christ, angels became disaffected. The insinuations of Satan took effect, and they really came to believe that the Father and the Son were their enemies and that Satan was their benefactor. Satan has the same power and the same control over minds now, only it has increased a hundredfold by exercise and experience. Men and women today are deceived, blinded by his insinuations and devices, and know it not. By giving place to doubts and unbelief in regard to the work of God, and by cherishing feelings of distrust and cruel jealousies, they are preparing themselves for complete deception. They rise up with bitter feelings against the ones who dare to speak of their errors and reprove their sins.

Those who have in the fear of God ventured out to faithfully meet error and sin, calling sin by its right name, have discharged a disagreeable duty with much suffering of feelings to themselves; but they get the sympathy of but few and suffer the neglect of many. The sympathizers are on the wrong side, and they carry out the purposes of Satan to defeat the design of God.

[Woody]

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I can agree with you on one thing, we can disagree and still be pleasant.

Praise God for that. What you say is the best news yet. If we can't do that ... what is Christianity about?

I would just hope that you can do as you say and transfer what we have done to the church in general and agree to disgree but with unity. I pray that that can be done.

None of us see the church as perfect for it is not. God has to work with human sinners. And that we are. We will make mistakes and I include the church in that. But we can move towards the goal united in purpose.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

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I don't believe they are just words. I believe that there is power in being called by God to do a job. We do not just have to be chosen by men with a laying on of hands.

Human reasoning

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It is interesting that you do not trust the judgment of the General Conference in session but you trust a local conference office to "ordain" by the laying on of hands.

It's interesting and logical. When ever they follow the Bible, they're right and when they don't they are wrong. They are not infallible, you must be a thinking and responsible member of this church, not just swallow all that is done. If it is of God it will last and bear fruit if not it will cause division and fail.

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Ellen White did not see this as necessary .... and many pastors who are called of God to serve and who are given great power by God to do that task ... they do not see it as imparative. They just continue to go about there appointed work without the ordination of men.

Of course. But there is a purpose for ordination. I am an ordained Elder and have seen the difference in my life when I am ministering to people. Before and after, there is a difference.

[Woody]

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Thanks for the statement...it can apply to many of the discussions on this forum and in our churches today. I really long for the day when our only focus will be about Christ, what He 'has' done for us and will do for others. When that happens, the end will be very much closer.

Now...back to topic!

No. That IS the topic. That is the way it should be. Thank you for this post. It sums everything we have talked about in a nut shell. Praise God. If we can only get back to the Bible and the basic truth. God would bless us. Keep it SIMPLE. CHRIST.

[Woody]

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Of course. But there is a purpose for ordination. I am an ordained Elder and have seen the difference in my life when I am ministering to people. Before and after, there is a difference.

I appreciate your anocdotal experience. Mine was not the same experience. But that is fine. I felt the difference when I was "called". Now that was mighty. But the fact that I was given the stamp of approval by men when I was ordained ... did not mean a geat deal. I was already approved by God so why should I ?

[Stan]

FYI

[Gregory Matthews]

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Gregory, there are some things that will never change. The makeup of women and men is one. No amount of time will change the fact that women like to shop and men don't.

Norman, what is it that constutes the makeup of mena nd women.

Well, part of it comes from the culture, some from what happens during the developmental process while in the woumb, and some from early childhood.

Further genderism (Did I coin a new word?) occures on a graduated scale. It does not occur in an either or fixed stage.

You tell us that women like to shop, and men do not. Sorry that is not an absolute truth. Some men like to shop, and some women do not. Beyond that, people (men and women) have various degrees of liking to shop, or not licking to shop.

When I was growing up, one of the families that were close friends of my parents was a family system where the so-called tradiltional roles had been reversed. The Father assumed the so-called tradiltional roles of the wife, and the the wife assumed those of the Father. It was a successful marriage.

Further, culture has a large influence on the roles of men an women. That is very clear from sociological studies of family groups in other countries.

Norman, as cultures change, and they do change over time, as well as over place, the make-up of men and women change.

You tell us that it is not Biblical to ordain women. O.K. I understand our position. Now we as a denomination are faced with a major problem. Ellen White was given the credentials of an Ordained Minister. She accepted and carried those credentials for a number of years. If she has thought that to be against the Bible, whould she not have proclaimed by voice and pen that such was wrong? She clearly proclaimed the error of other stuff that the "bretheren" did.

If that had been wrong, do you not think that God would have instructed her to reject those credentials?

EGW clearly proclaimed sin as sin. Why did she not do such in relation to her credentials?

Would you tell us that the denominaiton should publicly repent of what it did in regard to EGW?

[Woody]

COOL STAN

Thanks. But that is only one of many. I will assume that this one is from the GC. But she also received a number from different conferences. Not sure why. But they are all a matter of public record.

I love history and old documents. I guess that is why I sell old Ellen White First Edition books on Ebay. Just sold a Steps To Christ for $130 . It is kinda fun. Hey if any of you have old EGW books ... let me know. I could sell them for you on Ebay. I have a pretty good following for what I sell. I've built up a following because of my good honest descriptions.

Oh well ... enough of my bragging about my Ellen White books. Just thought it might be something you didn't know about me. But then maybe I have shared it before. I don't know. Guess I am just getting OLD. (Having just turned 50 this year)

[John317]

... Ellen White was given the credentials of an Ordained Minister. She accepted and carried those credentials for a number of years. If she has thought that to be against the Bible, whould she not have proclaimed by voice and pen that such was wrong? She clearly proclaimed the error of other stuff that the "bretheren" did.

If that had been wrong, do you not think that God would have instructed her to reject those credentials?

EGW clearly proclaimed sin as sin. Why did she not do such in relation to her credentials?

Would you tell us that the denominaiton should publicly repent of what it did in regard to EGW?

Do you know if, during Ellen White's time, credentials of an ordained minister were ever issued to any other woman by the SDA church?

[Woody]

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Ellen White was given the credentials of an Ordained Minister. She accepted and carried those credentials for a number of years. If she has thought that to be against the Bible, whould she not have proclaimed by voice and pen that such was wrong? She clearly proclaimed the error of other stuff that the "bretheren" did.

If that had been wrong, do you not think that God would have instructed her to reject those credentials?

EGW clearly proclaimed sin as sin. Why did she not do such in relation to her credentials?

Some good points Gregory.

But I just wanted to make sure that the impression is not out there that this was a passive arrangement with her credentials. It is a matter of record that she signed her name many times on official documents ( And they can be accessed at Andrews ) indicating that she was and accepted the credentials of an ordained minister.

If this was such as big deal. A big sin against the scriptures ... then like you say ... why did she not speak up and clarify things. OR just not accept the "misleading" statement that could lead others "to sin" !!

No. She made a quiet statement of approval.

Just as in the time of Jesus ... some issues were not the right time to officially bring up due to cultural and political reasons.

The same can be true of slavery and civil rights in the early SDA years. Sometimes it is wise to be silent. Truth is progressive. And there is a time and a season for all things under heaven.

But, if you look at the Bible as a whole ... I think the message is clear about women and men. However, some find it hard to not follow the cultural , political and old traditions of men. That is fine. God is big enough for us to misunderstand. But the church is not big enough. It had the authority and need to make a stand. And it has. What we need now is unity and for those who see things differently ... to set aside their differences and join the body.

[Woody]

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Do you know if, during Ellen White's time, credentials of an ordained minister were ever issued to any other woman by the SDA church?

Good questions John317. I don't honestly know. I doubt it. I really don't think the church was ready for it due to the cultural and political issues of the time. Remember ... EGW actually encouraged women even not to vote. It was not that voting was wrong. It was just that it was not the right time.

I don't think it was the right time for more women to be ordained. But she did make her own quiet statement. It was a start. And the church does not move quickly on many issues of this political and cultural significance.

[carolaa]

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No, the pastor's wife should be the one.

As a Pastors Spouse .... I can clearly say that this is not the job of a Pastor's spouse. But it does bring a good belly chuckle.

Most spouses have jobs outside the Denomination or are not able or willing to do as you say.

It is kinda a good laugh for us spouses. The first question I get when we go to a church is .... Do you play the piano?

Spouses may or may not have the skills or desire to do as you say. And most likely ... they are not called to do said job. Why would you want someone not called just to protect your belief that a woman can't proclaim the gospel.

You are so right! How presumptious to assume the pastor's wife/spouse is gifted for counseling. If the pastor asks his wife to accompany him, that is one thing, and I know several pastors who have done this, but to EXPECT the pastor's wife/spouse to fill that role is quite a stretch, and I find that attitude very offensive.

[carolaa]

I don't see any mention of she or young women here.

What we all need to do is follow the Bible and stop trying to improve on what God has said and ordained.

I think that's really lame. I'm sure you know very well that traditionally the word "he" often refers to mankind as a whole, and not just to men. That tradition has evolved somewhat to where you now see he/she sometimes, but nevertheless, "he" is still often used to refer to both men and women. Are you saying that all the Bible verses that use the word "he" do not apply to women? Are you saying that everywhere EGW uses the word "he" does not apply to women?

The quotes you gave could easily be a cultural issue since women did not work out of the home nearly as much as they do today. I'm not saying it IS a cultural issue, but I can see how it could easily be. Let's please stick to arguments that are valid.

[carolaa]

there are some things that will never change. The makeup of women and men is one. No amount of time will change the fact that women like to shop and men don't

Biblical fact #1 Men will always be the head of a women. That's never going to change. Is that a bad thing? No it's not if rightly understood. Fact #2 women will always be the glory of a man. God will not change that.

Eve was deceived but Adam was not. This is the lot that has been passed down to women and therefore they should not be ordained pastors where they can be deceived by evil men and bring shame to the Gospel and the church of God.

I hate to shop, and I know other women who hate to shop. I also know men who love to shop. Let's not make stereotypes the basis for doctrine.

Regarding your first two myths, those are addressing the issue of marriage, nothing else.

Adam committed the worse sin by going into it with his eyes wide open. Are you saying that makes him a better leader? I don't understand your comment about ordained women being deceived by evil men and bringing shame to the church. Are you saying that because of Eve's deception that all women become stupid by having men lay hands on them? And who are these "evil" men who are going to deceive them? (btw, do you mean that only men try to deceive, or do you use the word "men" to refer to mankind?)

[Woody]

Go for it Carolaa ... Don't hold back. Say what you mean. Don't mince any words. !!!

I love it. Could you be any clearer ????

[carolaa]

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And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. Act 19:14-16

What's that got to do with women in ministry? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! It is all about men getting things wrong! (again?)

Amen, sister! That one needs some explaining.

There are more men than women examples in the Bible of people being demon possessed. Maybe that shows they are less likely to be deceived and better candidates for leadership.

[carolaa]

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And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. Act 19:14-16

What's that got to do with women in ministry? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! It is all about men getting things wrong! (again?)

I'm sorry, I have to respond again. The more I think about that the harder I laugh.

LOL

[Woody]

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There are more men than women examples in the Bible of people being demon possessed. Maybe that shows they are less likely to be deceived and better candidates for leadership.

Go Figure ...

ROFL :S