Women in Ministry

[John317]

It wasn't, John. The GC votes of 1990 & 1995 still stand as a bulwark against those who would re-write roles.

I thought so, too, but it's been a while since I paid much attention to the church's position on these matters. The last GC I attended was the one in Dallas in 1980. Thanks for the information. My sister, who keeps abreast of these things, told me the same thing last night in a phone conversation.

Quote:

Incidentally, Ted N.C. Wilson came a lot closer to becoming the GC president in 2005 than most of us realize. I look for a change in 2010.

Is that the former President's brother?

In 1974, 1975 I had the privilege of serving as an assistant pastor with the father of GC President N.C. Wilson in Moreno Valley. It was a good experience.

All the best,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

This is the personal testimony of Senior Pastor Hyveth B. Williams of the Loma Hill Church, an ordained pastor of the SDA church, as found on her website, http://www.theevidence.org/episodes/guests_2a.php

It is a fact that in 2002, she preached a sermon entitled, "How to Have Sex with God."

Following is her "testimony":

Excerpt from a video-taped interview

I lived in Hartford, Connecticut for many years and became involved with the local politics there with the Mayor and so forth. I was his campaign manager and then also his executive assistant and that gave me opportunity to mingle with the local politicians, some national and some international people.

It was a two way kind of life because I lived this very public persona that was a very successful woman and inside of me I was a very angry, hurt, bitter, person. And the way that people realized that it was showing - or the way that I thought that I expressed it - was through the choices that I made: alcohol, drugs, promiscuous behavior. Swearing a lot. Those were some of the ways that my pain was showing itself.

I finally, eventually, saw a psychiatrist who counseled me and helped me through very painful parts of my life and told me that I was mostly...his vision...his image of me was that I was round peg trying to fit in a square hole or one of those old clich�s, idioms, whatever.

On one hand I was very famous: I couldn't walk through the city without being photographed; I was always on the news in doing television talk shows and so forth; very popular with the media people. And on the other hand, I lived a life that every time I went to me...went home, I would think: Tonight is the night I'm going to kill myself." In fact, I attempted to commit suicide on three occasions that I can recall right now. So I had that very difficult kind of a life.

What Changed?

I decided early on in my life in this local political scenario that I could do a better job than the local politicians and I wanted to run for office. And I began to prepare myself. In fact, I did hire my own campaign manager and we were planning and plotting and getting people together and beginning to raise funds to take on my boss. And I did quit my job so that I could do this effectively.

During the course of this political campaign, which was in its very formative stages, I did have the endorsement of a local TV station and a newspaper, but outside of that, it was in its formative stages. During that period, I began to hear voices and I began...and I thought that I was having a mental breakdown. Actually, that was my first thought: that I was falling apart. And the more I heard these voices, the more I drank.

You need to understand that because of the life that I lived, I smoked quite a lot of cigarettes. I was smoking 3 packs of cigarettes a day and drinking coffee all the time. And I was for all intents and purposes, anorexic. I was weighing 78 pounds, literally. I wore a size three that was too big for me during that time and I...because of that kind of abusive way of living, I ended up in the hospital. I had a stroke that was medically-induced during this period. It was just a horrendous time of great things and very bad things.

So here I was running for this office and having these stresses relating to my relationship with my boss. Because I lied a lot at the time. You need to understand that I did not just say: "I want to be a politician". You know, it is true that we politicians lie a lot. And I thought that my way of segueing out of the job was to lie my way out of it rather than to just simply look him in the eye and say: "I'm through with this job and I'm going to run against you."

So all of these stresses from trying to hold the stories together and keep things together - plus the fact that I was entering into uncharted waters created in my perhaps what I thought. And that's how I related the voices that I heard in the beginning. I thought this is all related to those factors. Plus I was drinking quite a lot. And because of my weight, the size that I was (as I mentioned, I was 78 pounds), a friend of mine who was a lawyer suggested that I use marijuana to gain weight. And so I had started using marijuana in addition to the fact that I was eating everything in sight, including the kitchen sink. I was also becoming more and more paranoid. So I thought all of those things induced the voices I was hearing. So I paid no attention to them. I had a friend of mine who had heard voices. And she was a very popular media personality and heard voices and ended up in a mental institution. And I felt that that was where I was heading. And I should go there. Except, it turned out in my case that these voices really was God calling me. And that was the amazing turn around in my story.

Hyveth's Turnaround

There was nothing...at first I did not understand the "God" thing, because I was an atheist. I did not at all believe in God. And if someone had suggested to me at that time that this was God, I would not have a frame of reference for this God-being.

I felt that people who believed in God were weak and could not make decisions on their own. And needed to lean on an invisible being to do that. So, I did not assume that it was God, initially. I knew that some thing was invading my life and disrupting my life in a very particular way. I think I discovered it was God through two experiences which may show you how I came about.

Her First Epiphany

I was ...I had ...I might say, successfully disengaged myself from my boss from the Mayor, he just passed away earlier this year so...I want to mention that somehow. But I had, in some way, disengaged myself from him. And one of the things that I had done...there was a lot of investigations happening and I had stolen some files that I knew would indict some people in the city. And I had stolen these files and hidden them in my home. And when the time came that it was discovered that I was the one who had taken them, I was...I went to his office to confront him. And I remember just this "being" over him. And he was sitting on the other side of the desk and I was just screaming, foul language, words that not even sailors would use, in fact, I swore so much, if I ran out of swear words, I made them up. I would connect two swear words and I would be creative with...you know, I was ...invectives like you cannot believe.

And he needed to have someone negotiate us through these muddy waters and he invited the personnel director for the city to come and talk with us. When he came, I continued the caustic manner in which I was addressing him. And I remember the personnel director saying: "Hyveth, you know, a soft answer turneth away wrath". And I had never heard those words before. And I remember turning my head and almost like my neck would snap. You know, it was such an instant reaction to those words. Because they pierced through something. They passed my brains, beyond my heart, into my very soul and I needed to know: "Where did you get those words?" I stopped and said: "Where did you get those words?" And he said: "Out of the Bible." And I said: "I want to see it." And before I left that day, he gave me a red King James Version of the Bible. And I went home and I read that Bible from Genesis to Revelation. I did not sleep. I stayed up and read the whole thing. It took me maybe about seven days, but I did. So that was one event that changed...that had an impact, that began to make me realize that there is something or someone, a "being", God.

Her Second Transformational Experience

And after that, I had another experience that came about as a result of all of these things that I did in the context of trying to get myself elected in the city because they had never had a black. They had never had a female. And I wanted to be the first black female Mayor in the United States. And that was my goal, that was my dream. And so I would stop at nothing. There was nothing that I would not do to have that.

Of course, I did not have any underlying principles. I didn't care. This is what I wanted. And I didn't care how I got it. And so the second incident was that having been discovered that I had been doing all these things, I was persona non grata of course, in many circles, where I was once welcome. Also, there were some people who were very threatened by what I had done, because I had information that could jeopardize their safety and security and they did go after me. And when I discovered that I was...my actions had been discovered, I began to run away, literally run away. And in the process of running away, I ended up in a safe house.

And I won't go into too much description of this place, but when I got there, it was just a funny way of my getting there. I had taken...I had flown in...my son was a young boy at the time...I had taken him out by night, put him on an airplane...couldn't get him on without someone, so I flew with him to New York. Put him on an airplane to outside of the United States...and then took a bus back to my home because I couldn't get another flight. And when I got home, it was like two in the morning- and someone was in my home. And this person later just totally destroyed my house.

But that's another story.

I ran from there seeing this person in the house and realizing that my life was in danger, I ran from there into a...I called a cab...and I called the cab and the cab was taking me to this place where I knew I could be. Then I had him call another cab and I was crawling from cab to cab on the floor so that I could ...if someone was following me, this was just like a weird movie happening in my life. But anyway, I got to this safe house early in the morning, maybe by then five in the morning, I have no idea. But it was in the morning. I remember hearing the birds ...the sounds of the birds.....that early morning sound as I was dozing off in the sofa. And I fell off into a very, very deep sleep. And as I slept I realized that I would not come back.

You know there are many Christians and many people who say that people don't have this experience where you know you are dying and you see light and everything like that. I think they do because I did. I really believe that people do. I think some people exaggerate and some people make more of it so they can get on Oprah Winfrey or something. But I do think there is a moment in some people's experience where they have this experience...something. And I had that. I felt that...at that moment, I saw myself dying and I knew...I felt that I had stepped outside of my body and I was standing outside of my body looking at myself laying there. And I knew I was not going to be reconnected with that body. I knew this was it. I didn't see my life pass before me. I didn't see God and angels or anything like that.

The weirdest thing and the only thing that I recall is that I saw all the ice cream that I had never eaten. And I kept screaming: "I haven't had," you know, "Mississippi Mud!" or something like that. That's what I saw pass before me because I am that kind of a crazy person perhaps.

But anyway, as I watched this happening and I realized that I was never going to be reconnected, I heard a voice say to me, come with me and I will give you peace and joy forevermore. And I knew then it was God. I don't know why I knew this voice was God. And I can never explain it to anyone. But it was in that moment that I knew I heard God. And I had been hearing him many times before but we didn't' connect. This time we connected. And I said, I want to live, I want to live. And this voice said if you will follow me and do exactly as I tell you to do, I will give you life. I didn't understand then that it was eternal life. I wanted to live physically, naturally. And before I ...the voice said to me: "You will know that I spoke to you because three things are going to happen in your life. And the first one..." (this voice...and it was a male sounding voice and I don't know what intonation it had because I wasn't taking notes about that. I wanted to live and that's all I cared about. I was a very selfish narcissistic person so I didn't care about anything else. I think that...and before I woke up and regained consciousness this voice said to me): "You will know that I spoke to you because three things will happen: Number one someone is going to come to you and they will say to you: "I have come to take you home." And when they do, you must go with them. And the second time, for the rest of your life, as long as you live on this earth, no matter what the weather, no matter where you are, you will always see flowers." I will always...you will always be reminded and I can tell you some incredible stories of being in strange places, snow covered places, and found a rose that someone dropped and I would remember. I have been in the desert and found a flower, just one little flower peaking up. And I remembered that yes, I had this encounter.

And the third one was something that I needed to do with this encounter, that was not for public consumption and I have never shared...I have tried on one occasion to share it and just got befuddled. And I have just not bothered to share it. But there were these three things. Well, I got up and being sanguine and if you know anything about sanguine people we've very dramatic and you know...the life of the party and everything like that, I got up. I had my life. And I decided to go out and buy a long green gown and wear it to the corner, one of the street corners, busiest street corners and just begin to tell people that Jesus lives and that God is love and I've never read a Bible and didn't know what I was talking about. But you know, I felt I had to pay back since I was alive. And particularly since I'd been an atheist.

Anyway, some of my friends came and grabbed me, threw me in a car, smacked me a couple of times, poured some alcohol down me - and I came to my senses. And I quit smoking for about two weeks. Here I was smoking three packs of cigarettes. I quit smoking for about two weeks. And I refused to smoke. I was going to be a Christian. And I thought I had heard the King James version and I began to speak in King James. I thou who art thou...that sort of thing. I didn't know how to pray, so I used to hang my head out the window and say: "Hey, JC, this is Hyveth Williams, here is my social security number..." You know, it was just crazy stuff. I did this for maybe a month and then one day, I said: "Wait a minute! I don't even believe in God! What's the matter with me? I must be totally crazy! And so I went back to my lifestyle: smoking again, drinking, and I had a business at the time in public relations and I remember calling my secretary and we went out and bought a case of champagne and we put the champagne in the freezer in the basement and some in the freezer in the kitchen. And we started drinking in the afternoon.

And by maybe 2:00 and by 5:00 we were zonked. And we were sitting just making stupid plans and talking silly things and everything like that and the champagne that was in the upstairs, in the freezer...if you freeze champagne, the bottles burst and it sounds like bullets. And we were there all zonked and suddenly: "Bang! Bang! Bang! We were diving under chairs and screaming and thinking...you know. I'm saying: "Oh God, I'll be a Christian if that's..." It is crazy. I shouldn't really tell this story.

So anyway, in the middle of this chaos, with the champagne bottles going off, the door bell rings and this man that I knew, he and his wife, I had not seen them for about ten years or more, they were standing there. I opened the door and I'm, you must understand that I'm really out of it, cigarette hanging out, just totally.

And he said: "I have come to take you home."

And I remember just sobering up instantly and falling apart then.

Just not knowing what to do. And so I went. And in his home, one night, maybe the second night that I was there, I had this incredible encounter with God and I knew then that it was God.

And I fought with him and wrestled with Him. And I said: " You will not have my life. I don't want to be a Jesus-freak. I do not want to be a zombie. I do not want to be what I had seen so many Christians being. I do not want to be a phony. I don't want to be fake and unreal. I want to be happy and live life and have joy and still be a Christian. And I will not go with you."

And ...we wrestled all night and I remember in the morning, I was so exhausted, and I said: "You know what? I can't fight with you anymore because I'm not going to win. I will go with you. But if you ever, ever, ever let me down, if you ever lie to me, if you ever turn me into something that I'm not, I will spend the rest of my life telling people that you are not to be believed."

That was how I became a Christian

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

I don't have time to do a complete word study right now, but if you were correct in what you say here, Paul would be contradicting the Holy Spirit's instructions in 1 Tim 2: 8-15; 1 Cor. 14: 34-37. It's obvious from what Paul says here that this was the policy in all the Christian churches that Paul organized. Those mentioned in Romans 16: 1, 12 were no exception to the rule.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

I don't understand what you are saying. My point was that we have a different meaning for the word Deacon then in Apostlic times. Or at least we only use one interpretation of it.

For example, today we think of a deaconess as a servant during Communion, helping females out of the baptistry before and after baptism, they have other duties as well but they don't normally teach or preach as a pastor would.

A deacon back then would teach and preach and was a minister. I don't see anywhere where there's instruction to ordain deaconesses in Apostlic times.

The word deacon does tranlate to minister and when in context, also a servant/attendant one who serves. This is in context with what Paul says in the next verse Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succorer of many, and of myself also.

I don't see how you connect Rom 16:12 to this: Salute Tryphena and Tryphosa, who labor in the Lord. Salute the beloved Persis, which labored much in the Lord. There is no reference here of deacons, it refers to some Christians who labor in the Lord.

Maybe I'm missing your point.

Norman

[John317]

Quote:

I don't have time to do a complete word study right now, but if you were correct in what you say here, Paul would be contradicting the Holy Spirit's instructions in 1 Tim 2: 8-15; 1 Cor. 14: 34-37. It's obvious from what Paul says here that this was the policy in all the Christian churches that Paul organized. Those mentioned in Romans 16: 1, 12 were no exception to the rule.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

I don't understand what you are saying. My point was that we have a different meaning for the word Deacon then in Apostlic times. Or at least we only use one interpretation of it.... Maybe I'm missing your point. Norman

I'm sorry for the confusion here. It's my fault. We actually agree on this. I haven't slept in over 24 hours and need to get my sleep. My mind was going in and out of sleep when I clicked on your post. I had intended to respond to Tom's post. It's 'way past my bedtime.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

I find the continued emphasis by the GC President on women and young people to be getting a little stale now.

Hmmm. I happen to support all the presidents efforts. I am sure that it is easy for the church to be criticized. I think it is important that we support our church even though we passionately disagree with some of the aspects of it and the President's efforts.

I have to believe that God is using our President and our vice President for HIS good. The church and God have commissioned our leaders . We should get behind them and support them as far as we can. It is better to help than to put down someone's personal efforts.

[Woody]

Quote:

A deacon back then would teach and preach and was a minister.

In the churches that I attend ... we have both deacons and deaconesses preach and minister. We are ALL called to do this. Those that have the spiritual gifts should use them no matter what their assigned position is.

God will , can , and has consistently used the weak and lowly among us. God is not big on "status". HE wants ALL of us to minister. We are all in the priesthood of believers.

Praise God for His love for me.

[Woody]

By the way Norman ... As I have kept saying ... I think it is fine for you to have your beliefs. You are free to say that you are right and the church is wrong. I have said that on issues also.

But I submit to the church no matter how wrong I feel their beliefs are. I do not knock down the people and the church. I WILL knock down any beliefs that I think are wrong. But I will work and witness my faith to the church and work IN the church not against it with personal attacks like .... saying that people are:

Quote:

"blind, stupid fools" and that "our church is not far behind".

Unless I felt that I was a prophet and God had instructed me to condemn the church and the people in it ... I would not issue such condemnations.

But I respect that you are sincere in your attacks on us. I realize that you have studied and come to this conclusion. I would just encourage you to think as to what authority you do this condemning and what the effect and results of such attacks are.

I will pray that you see the need to be more loving and supportive of the church that I love. I have decided that even though I have some disagreements with the church ... that I will support , encourage, and help the church. I will do what I can to model my ideas rather than knock down what I love.

Just my thoughts. You are loved and accepted despite your prickly outside. I am sure you have had lots of hurts in you past from the church. People can fail. But if we try loving them ... they will improve. I want to love you ... in the Christian sense. It seems difficult. But with God's help ... I can do it. And in doing so ... I hope you can see more good than bad in the SDA church.

[olger]

Hi Red. Please know, the majority of the International Aventist church is opposed to women pastors. The NAD is all aflutter over it, but most of the world is unimpressed. California, Ohio, MD are some of the NAD hotbeds for WO.

Best wishes,

oG

[Woody]

Yes Olger. I suspect you might be right that other countries are not as supportive. The issue IS a cultural one. And thus ... it is wise for the World Church to not impose things on other culturals. Letting each division or conference decide is wise.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

If you were to ask anyone who has been around me in the church does Norman like the church or does he have a problem with it? Overwhelmingly you would hear, "All I ever hear from him is his love for the church and God. He is always uplifting us" You would hear no negative talk about what I think of the church. I have never been hurt by the church, I am not of that cloth that blames others for the pain that they choose to hold on to.

The church has some serious problems and to sit around and pretend all is well can cause us to have other people blood on our head. There is a huge difference between condenming and rebuking. From what I have read in your post it appears as though you can't distiguish the two. Do a study on the two words and that might help you understand.

Here's an example of a rebuke in a vision:

Quote:

Special Testimony to Our Ministers. -- No. 2 (1892), page 29, paragraph 5

"I saw that some of the people of God are stupid and dormant, and but half awake; they do not realize the time we are now living in. . . . I begged of Jesus to save them, to spare them a little longer, and let them see their awful danger, that they might get ready before it should be forever too late. The angel said, 'Destruction is coming like a mighty whirlwind.' I begged of the angel to pity and to save those who loved this world, who were attached to their possessions, and were not willing to cut loose from them, and sacrifice to speed the messengers on their way to feed the hungry sheep who were perishing for want of spiritual food.

Isa 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honorable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst.

Personal attacks are viewed as such in those who believe that others can hurt them, not realizing that all things come to them because God permits it.

Quote:

But I respect that you are sincere in your attacks on us. I realize that you have studied and come to this conclusion. I would just encourage you to think as to what authority you do this condemning and what the effect and results of such attacks are.

that's a little dramatic.

[Woody]

Ok Norman. Thank you. I am getting a clearer picture.

I am willing to conclude that you feel it is your duty to "rebuke" us and the church. I happen to disagree with your approach and I think I have outlined my disagreements. So, we can leave it at that and agree to disagree.

Would that be Ok with you? OR is there more that you need to say about the matter?

[Tom Wetmore]

...The word deacon does tranlate to minister and when in context, also a servant/attendant one who serves. This is in context with what Paul says in the next verse Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succorer of many, and of myself also....

Actually Norman, the word you have highlighted, succorer, is translated from the Greek word prostatis which means " a woman over others, governess, protectress, guardian, one who assists other from her own resources." (This word is derived from the male form which was most frequently translated as ruler, or in verb form, to rule over or govern.) The early part of verse 2 includes the feminine form of diakonos to describe Phoebe. One has to understand Phoebe to be an important female leader/minister of the early church when read with Paul's further description of her as a saint and his admonition to the believers in Rome to heed her and to help her with whatever she asked of them, that Paul considered her to be a 'prostatis" to him and that he entrusted his letter to the Romans to her to deliver to them, which was typically read aloud to the group. That latter point would have put her before the group and most probably an educated woman able to read Greek. It is Phoebe that was the topic of the article in the Advent Review back in the 1860's that I mentioned earlier.

Tom

[Taylor]

That is really interesting Tom. Thanks for posting.

[Woody]

Yes. Thank you to both you Tom and to Norman for bringing this to our attention.

[darlene]

I had to smile as I read this thread. Why? Because I have served as a conference director for going on nine years now. I do realize that, that is not the same capacity as a pastor but, my salary is the same as all the other directors. Three years ago I also started Men's Ministries in our conference and I do attend our Men's Ministries Retreats, though only in the background. :-)

So, do I ever want to be ordained? No, ordination does not appeal to me. I feel God called me to do what I am doing and I will do it to the best of my ability just for Him.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Actually Norman, the word you have highlighted, succorer, is translated from the Greek word prostatis which means " a woman over others, governess, protectress, guardian, one who assists other from her own resources." (This word is derived from the male form which was most frequently translated as ruler, or in verb form, to rule over or govern.) The early part of verse 2 includes the feminine form of diakonos to describe Phoebe. One has to understand Phoebe to be an important female leader/minister of the early church when read with Paul's further description of her as a saint and his admonition to the believers in Rome to heed her and to help her with whatever she asked of them, that Paul considered her to be a 'prostatis" to him and that he entrusted his letter to the Romans to her to deliver to them, which was typically read aloud to the group. That latter point would have put her before the group and most probably an educated woman able to read Greek. It is Phoebe that was the topic of the article in the Advent Review back in the 1860's that I mentioned earlier.

Tom

Thanks for sharing that Tom

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Darlene,

I used to live in Alberta in 1981, that's where I was baptized as a result of an evangelsitic series put on by Herb Larson. Have you heard of him?

[Tom Wetmore]

Thanks Darlene. And that is precisely the heart of the matter, IMHO. It really is quite beside the point of the call of God whether others recognize it and act upon that recognition by performing a human hands-on ceremony. The important result is that the one called recognizes the call of God and acts accordingly. The opinion of others is not the deciding factor. (See EGW quote I posted earlier about putting too much stock in ordination.)

Ordination has become the strawman trump card argument of those whose real agenda is to oppose women in pastoral ministry. By keeping the focus on that argument the real issue of women in ministry is avoided and sidetracked. But at this point WO is off the table and a not the real issue.

A thought occurred to me recently wondering how many women have been deterred from accepting the call either because they thought that without ordination they couldn't fulfill the God's call or that they were convinced by those missing the point by arguing against WO that the call they understood and experienced had to have been from another source other than God. But it also occurred to me that there may well be women among those who fight against WO who were in fact called by God to ministry who now steadfastly maintain their anti-WO position as a means of salving their conscience for having rejected or turned away from God's call to them.

Tom

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Tom, it makes sense that she ministered to educated Greek women. Think about it, Paul was accused of trying to destroy the laws of Moses and other traditions. Once he was accused of bringing an uncircumcised Greek into the temple. In that time, especially with the Pharisees and other religious group who hated him for preaching the cross and not preaching circumcision, it would have been a real hinderance to the Gospel, for him to have ordained women.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hey Tom I decided to check out "succorer" for myself and this is what I found: Prostatis: feminine derivitive of pro-is'-tay-mee

From G4253 and G2476; to stand before, that is, (in rank) to preside, or (by implication) to practise: - maintain, be over, rule. a Patroness: that is, assistant: succorer:

Merriam-Webster online dictionary

succor One entry found.

succor[2,transitive verb]

Main Entry: 2succor

Function: transitive verb

Inflected Form(s): suc·cored; suc·cor·ing \ˈsə-k(ə-)riŋ\

Date: 13th century

: to go to the aid of : relieve

This leaves room for her being a servant as well since in the next verse Paul says Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: Rom 16:3 This leaves a possiblity that they were working with Paul in the Gospel and Phebe was a servant and a helper with their Physical needs only. This is a possiblity.

Norman

[darlene]

Yes, Norman, I do know both Herb Larsens; Junior and Senior. I suspect you mean Senior. Infact, he and his wife Lorraine sat right in the pew in front of me on Sabbath. They come to my church except during the cold winter months when they go south.

And yes, Tom, some women really see Women's Ordination as a great issue. I just don't see it the same way.

[Tom Wetmore]

...

Quote:

As I asked Denise just a bit ago, do you know that Paul specifically identifies by name a female deacon, a female disciple, a female apostle and also refers to the female elders that were a part of the body of elders at the Church in Ephesus?

Please post those verses, I'd like to study them and see what the original language says.

I did post them before in one the previous go rounds on this topic which you participated. But I will post them briefly again.

The female disciple is Tabitha (Dorcas) identified by Luke in Acts 9:36. The Greek word used is mathetria the feminine form of mathetes the word consistently translated as disciple. I have also pointed out that Mary, sister of Martha, was treated by Jesus himself as a disciple by allowing her to sit at his feet to learn, which was the posture of a disciple before the Master. And EGW specifically confirms that Jesus commissioned her to be the first to preach the gospel of His resurrection.

Junias is identified by Paul in Romans 16:7 as one who was noteworthy among the apostles and who predated his own conversion, which could have put her as being among those who may have been at Pentecost.

We have already spoken of Phoebe the minister/leader who was arguably the first bishop of Rome by Paul's appointment spelled out in Romans 16:1-2. It is interesting the number of women co-laborers in the gospel affirmed by Paul just in this chapter. I would also note that early historical records identify a number of female bishops in the first couple centuries of the church. Paintings from that time clearly depict the ordination service of a woman as a bishop as confirmed by the written description. And there is a tomb that has the inscription identifying its occupant as being a bishop who was a woman. Sorry, I don't have the reference at my fingertips.

And 1 Timothy 5:2 refers to the women elders among the body of elders that had ordained Timothy (1 Timothy 4:12). The word used here by Paul is the female form of presbuteros which is the word consistently translated as "elder" more than 60 times in the NT and used in the preceding verse in reference to the male elders. (This word as used 5:2 is not as some have suggested merely referring to elderly women. The Greek word for that is presbutis and Paul knew the difference since he used that term in Titus 2:3.) This passage in Timothy 4-5 is Paul's instruction to Timothy regarding his relationship to the body of elders that had ordained him. Now it would seem that the body of elders in Ephesus that ordained Timothy would have also been ordained as Paul had directed should be done. And the full context includes female elders among that group.

So it would seem that there is Biblical support for females being ministers (diakonos) and elders (presbueteros) and that there were female disciples and apostles.

Tom

[Woody]

Well said CoA. I think we can save the judging and rebuking to God. Let's get on with the business of saving souls now that we have solved the "weightier" matters.

[Tom Wetmore]

Hey Tom I decided to check out "succorer" for myself and this is what I found: Prostatis: feminine derivitive of pro-is'-tay-mee

From G4253 and G2476; to stand before, that is, (in rank) to preside, or (by implication) to practise: - maintain, be over, rule. a Patroness: that is, assistant: succorer:

Merriam-Webster online dictionary

succor One entry found.

succor[2,transitive verb]

Main Entry: 2succor

Function: transitive verb

Inflected Form(s): suc·cored; suc·cor·ing \ˈsə-k(ə-)riŋ\

Date: 13th century

: to go to the aid of : relieve

This leaves room for her being a servant as well since in the next verse Paul says Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus: Rom 16:3 This leaves a possiblity that they were working with Paul in the Gospel and Phebe was a servant and a helper with their Physical needs only. This is a possiblity.

It is only a possibility if you ignore the context and the primary meaning of the Greek without mixing it up with 13th Century English which really was a very poor translation, if not a complete mistranslation. And you have to accept that Paul would have described a woman prostatis as merely a helper/servant using the same term he consistently used to describe men, including himself, in that position as ministers - diakonos. True enough that diakonos literally means "servant". But the full meaning is a special order of servants - servants of the king.

And the word Paul used to describe Priscilla and Aquilla (the order with the woman first is so unusual that it must be given significance of her special status) is sunergos which means coworkers. This is not a designation of subservience in the work but of equal status. They were not Paul's helpers but his coworkers or fellow-workers, as correctly translated in all versions other than the KJV.

Tom

[melvin mccarty]

I believe the vote was about 49% versus 51%. Many of those who voted against female ordination admitted that they were only voting that way to not offend the other bloc. It can no way be considered to prove that the issue was decided Biblically.

mel