What IF

[Neil D]

Redwood said-

We are all predestined to be saved. The scriptures give us that assurance as does Ellen White.

All you have to do is accept that gift. It is yours for the taking. And if you want to accept it ... then you don't have to have ANY concern about the unpardonable sin . For if you have committed the unpardonable sin you would not be coming to Him for your Salvation.

And Norman said-

You will never find that because it does not exist. here's what the Bible says 2Pe 3:9 [color:#3333FF]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You won't find where God says that everyone is predestined to be saved. He wants that, but knows the beginning from the end and know who will be saved and who will be lost.

Those who He knows will be saved are predestined to be saved. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.Rom 8:28, 29

This does not include the whole world. If you have something valuable to add I'd like to see it,

I would like to toss out a couple of ideas, for you both to consider...

1] Both messages are valuable

2]That of the condition of the person recieving the message...

The reason is that, the Message of grace needs to be adaptable to the person and where s/he is at in that time of thier life.

Paul kinda points out that things change as we age " When I was a child, I thought like a child"...and we know that our studies are different than what they were 20 years ago...Could it be, that the Gospel message, being big enough to reach all people of all races at anytime in thier lives needs to be altered/adapted [by us humans] just enough to reach each person at any point in thier life?

If the answer is yes, then would not a message of the Gospel be slightly different to those who may be sexually/parental abused and can not see thier heavenly Father very clearly without confusing human parental authority with divine authority?

If the answer is yes, would a sticter Gospel standard be necessary for those whose who are a part of the lifestyle in which "anything goes"?

If the answer is no, then why not?

So, again, the question is-

Is the Gospel adaptable to the everchanging person?

[Woody]

Quote:

We are all predestined to be saved. The scriptures give us that assurance as does Ellen White.

Quote:

Is the Gospel adaptable to the everchanging person?

Neil. I appreciate your adaptable approach and the idea in general. But I "feel" that if we take away the belief that Christ died and made a provision for ALL then ... what hope do we have? Before the foundations of the Earth ... the plan was made for our salvation . Christ then came and fulfilled this.

So, our Salvation is secured by the plan and its fulfillment. It was all preordained ... predestined that each of us be saved. It is a done deal. We can refuse that deal. But the provisions are there.

Let me demonstrate it this way ....

If I purchased a gift for you and placed it on your desk ... the gift IS there. The plan to buy it was hatched and fulfilled. The gift IS reality.

Folks ... I have been bought. The price HAS been paid. The victory secured. God preordained that I would be saved. But He also made provision through the freedom of choice that I can go against the plans of God. His predestination for my life MAY be vetoed by the sinner ... ME.

I pray that we will not veto God's plan for our lives.

[Neil D]

Quote:

Neil. I appreciate your adaptable approach and the idea in general. But I "feel" that if we take away the belief that Christ died and made a provision for ALL then ... what hope do we have?

Did I say that the Gospel was changed? Or did I say that the approach is different?

I had thought that I said that both of your APPROACHES were valid. It just depended upon the reciever of the message and where that person was at in thier life.

I went from an ultra conservative to [what I would consider] moderate position...Did I loose my concept of the Gospel, that I needed to recieve Christ to begin my journey to heaven? No, I don't think so....

Quote:

If I purchased a gift for you and placed it on your desk ... the gift IS there. The plan to buy it was hatched and fulfilled. The gift IS reality.

Doesn't my taking the gift depend upon if I have recieved any Isrealli/palestine Christmas cards??? And you know that in recieving those Isreali Xmas Cards, you need to be extremely cautious in opening it...if you open it at all...more than likely you are gonna call the bomb squad and have them dispose of it....So, in reality, the message needs to be adaptable to the reciever....The message is the same....just the approach is different...

The reason that I am so pointed in this is this....

In a discussion on a board about who God is, we had one person pressing for God being a redeemer...another pressing that God is a father, another saying that God is the Supreme head of the universe, another saying that God is a friend....I think that there were 5 or 7 versions of who God is....and they had supporting texts to give evidence of thier positions....Were they wrong? No, because every position was supported by a series of bible texts....Were they right? Yes, everyone was right. Was one more right than the others? No, because God is bigger than all those ideas....they only illustrate partically who God is....

The same thing could be said of the Gospel...it only depends upon the approach for the individual...at their time

[Woody]

Quote:

I had thought that I said that both of your APPROACHES were valid. It just depended upon the reciever of the message and where that person was at in thier life.

Sorry Neil. I think what you have said is good. I certainly don't feel that my approach or belief needs to to be the only one and you are right ... Normans approach may be more valuable to some. I see that his approach does resonate with some here.

Good Point. And I agree.

[Neil D]

Good Point. And I agree.

Norman?

What do you think?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Neil,

I'll have to reread this thread when I get back, going to nursing home right now. Then I'll answer.

Like the song?

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

just have a minute,

Neil I'm not sure if you know this, but your Avatar is not showing up.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Quote:if he accepted the gift of repentance and learned the truth and decided to become a member of this church he would not have been able to do so. Not because the church would refuse him but because he wouled still have to pay for the crimes he has committed by death.

Norman. Could you explain this theory to us a little more. I am not sure what you are saying. Since we all sin ... do we all have to pay the price of our crimes? Or does Jesus pay the price for us? Why would he not be able to be a member of this church? Or have I misunderstood you?

He would be able to become a member, but what I was saying was that he would have to suffer the death penalty from the laws that are in place and if your dead....

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Neil, I've reread this thread and will repeat what I wrote but in different words.

My point was first that we need to be careful how we present the Gospel to a person who is hurting. Redwood's post appeared to be a blanket statement to bring comfort at the expense of truth. I know what he is saying and might say it this way: God sent His Son to die for the sins of the world. I would not say that Christ's death (paying for the sins of the world) is all there is to the plan of salvation. Therefore we must accept the sacrifice that has been supplied for us. Until we have accepted the sacrifice no one can claim to be saved. Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Paul says, where there is no law there is no sin, so likewise where there is no sacrifice there is no forgiveness. If we reject the sacrifice or sin willfully (continually), we have no sacrifice left for the forgiveness of sins. For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

This is very inportant to note: this does not apply to those who don't know the Lord. Why? Because they have not accepted the sacrifice and therefore there is still a sacrifice for them. They must accept Christ and then they will have salvation. But if they don't they do not have salvation. You can't lose what you don't have. 1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

This is an entirely different matter than predestination. Predestination is something that God has done before the world began and we have nothing to do with it. God has seen and knows the future and knows who will be saved and who will be lost. If we can agree here we can move on if not then we'll not come to any understanding. God knows who the tares are and who the wheat are. He sends the rain and sun on both. But all who accept Him He has prepared a life for them here and now. All who have rejected Him He is still wooing even though He knows they'll never accept Christ and be saved.

This is why Jesus said that He sends the rain and sun on the just and the unjust. He cannot plan the lives of those who reject Him because they will not let Him. They rather have Satan lead them and He does not interfere with their choices. God wants all to be saved, He calls all to Him but only those who respond does He send to Christ. Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. If the Father does not send them then it only stands to reason taht they can't be raised at the last day. Therefore they must accept and recieve the call, repentence, forgiveness, power to become the Sons of God (Jn 1:12) and then bring many to the Lord in their capacity.

The difference in what I believe and Redwood is that he believes everyone is already saved and as long as they don't reject they won't be lost. I believe this is what I read. I don't believe that, I believe that we must make a choice and until we do we remain lost.

Norman

[Neil D]

Quote:

The difference in what I believe and Redwood is that he believes everyone is already saved and as long as they don't reject they won't be lost. I believe this is what I read. I don't believe that, I believe that we must make a choice and until we do we remain lost.

So, in a sinner's eyes, since he is affronted with the concept of being lost, he recognizes that he has to be saved. By doing so, he is forced to placed his trust on Someone he neither wants to know, or knows very little...

If I come up to you and say that I have the elixar of life and you either have to recognise that you are going to die before you can have this drink, how many people do you think will take it? Whereas, if I have the elixar of life, and I say that I am willing to give it away for free if they will just tastes it to see if they like it....? Which proposition is gonna gather more people to at least try the elixar?

To be honest, I think both approaches reach people who are at different aspects in thier lives...Just my thoughts....

[Woody]

Quote:

Redwood's post appeared to be a blanket statement to bring comfort at the expense of truth

You don't understand what I am saying then. I am pointing to the assurance that Christ died for ALL.

As far as "truth" ... I make no claims to preach that. I realize that you have declared that "truth" is your domain. But it is not mine. I can only speak for myself and what I personally have studied. I leave for you to decide what is truth for you.

Quote:

I would not say that Christ's death (paying for the sins of the world) is all there is to the plan of salvation. Therefore we must accept the sacrifice that has been supplied for us. Until we have accepted the sacrifice no one can claim to be saved.

It depends upon who's perspective you are looking at. Jesus died for ALL. IT is done. His plan for you is complete. He planned or preordained that ALL have this gift and this plan. It is done. It is finished. It is predestined that ALL should be saved. This is HIS perspective.

Now we can switch to your perspective. You are right ... no one would be claiming that they are saved until they have taken the gift that is there sitting for them . To say the gift is not there until they take it ... seems illogical to me personally. Saved status is there. Before you accept it ... it does exist. Jesus made sure of that. To believe otherwise would appear to discount what Christ did ... in my eyes. But NO you would not claim you are saved until you accepted the saved status.

Quote:

Predestination is something that God has done before the world began and we have nothing to do with it.

This is exactly true as I understand it. It was preordained that ALL be saved. Christ fufilled that. We can decide if we want it. But it is there. Our saved status is a fact and it is up to us to take the status.

Quote:

The difference in what I believe and Redwood is that he believes everyone is already saved and as long as they don't reject they won't be lost.

Like I say ... it is always interesting to see people speak for me. I would be interested to know where you got this idea. It is the furtherest from the truth. We ARE saved. But we do have to believe it , trust it, have faith in it and accept it. Otherwise the "saved status" does us NO good.

To believe that Christ only saved a certain few ... seems far from the truth that I know in Christ Jesus. He died for ALL and ALL are saved. They all have the saved status if they want it. The gift is sitting on the table for them to Take. Jesus's blood made that possible. Not only possible ... but FACT.

[melvin mccarty]

Actually "we" do not have to accept either. According to scripture the billions who have never heard these theological discussions are "saved" if they treat their fellow men/women lovingly. Notice that John 3:16 does not say "ONLY those who believe in Him are saved"

mel

[Woody]

Thank you Mel ... you are right. I stand corrected.

HE does know our hearts afterall.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

So, in a sinner's eyes, since he is affronted with the concept of being lost, he recognizes that he has to be saved. By doing so, he is forced to placed his trust on Someone he neither wants to know, or knows very little...

The good thing about the Gospel, as you know is that he, the unbeliever, is not forced to make an instant decision. He can take his time to get to know the Lord. To know Him is to love Him and receive eternal life, John 17:3

The truth of the matter is that if the selfish carnal mind that we are born with does not see the need to change it will not choose to do so. Why? because it is at enmity with God. In other words if the unbeliever doesn't see his need he has no need. He will not ask for help nor desire it because he's doing just fine thank you.

Neil, you are right, in fact many approaches can work, but they will eventually lead to the one I have mentioned, a serious battle will take place and a sense of displeasure with failure and sin will be overwhelming and then the choice will be made. It will be yes Lord I want to serve you or I give up and walk away.

You see the two portrayed in Peter and Judas. I was brought to the Lord by reading books on the occult, mind control and other such books. They awakened a hunger for more and left me unsatisfied until I met the Lord. Then I made my choice.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Actually "we" do not have to accept either. According to scripture the billions who have never heard these theological discussions are "saved" if they treat their fellow men/women lovingly. Notice that John 3:16 does not say "ONLY those who believe in Him are saved"

mel

I agree with part of what you say. It's true that some who have never heard but responded to the Holy Spirit will be in heaven. But those who have the knowledge as we do and which is what we I thought were discussing, must make a choice.

John 3:16 is about choice, to believe or not to believe. John explains this a little further in his letter Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. This is clear that a choice must be made, but in agreement with what you said, only if they have heard about the Lord. Otherwise we have this verse to back what you said Rom 2:14, 15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

NOrman

[Woody]

Quote:

I was brought to the Lord by reading books on the occult, mind control and other such books.

Thanks for sharing this with us Norman. But it does leave me wondering. Could you explain more about how they helped inspire you?

[olger]

Thanks for the testimony Norman.

og

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

Quote:I was brought to the Lord by reading books on the occult, mind control and other such books.

Thanks for sharing this with us Norman. But it does leave me wondering. Could you explain more about how they helped inspire you?

I knew nothing about the Lord, so when I read these types of books I felt that I was gaining knowledge. Every book that I read taught me something that I didn't know about life. Some of it turned out to be false and some of it well, it just helped me want more. Let's put it this way, it help me be aware of a spiritual existance which in turn God used to reach me along with the experiences of life that I had gone through until then.

[Guest truthseeker007]

pfff endless discussions. I really believe that Jesus reads our hearts instead of our words. After all words only try to catch the definition of feelings that flow out of the heart. You can give someone money because he is poor. According to the definition you had done a good job because you helped him. But what if one person gave money because he wanted to buy heaven, whereas another person gave him the money for free without intentions? They both did the same thing but their hearts were really different and i believe that Jesus investigates those differences. I think there are people going to be in heaven who never really had a choise to do good things but have the right kind of heart, whereas there will be a lot of Oprah s who are going to hell because their true intentions (money, power etc.) have always hidden their true characters. Personally i have gone far, i once used to hate so much i was able to kill somebody. This was my maximum, but i believe that everybody can become a killer in the right conditions if we don t know about Jesus Christ and his ways. Therefore i think it is sufficient to know that Jesus wants us to love one another and keep his commandments,, but the stress is on love, feelings of compassion that flow from the heart have to be nurtured. The more you start arguing about certain doctrines the more you drift away from what it is actually all about. All i can do is tune my heart as much as possible with the things Jesus said were important. You know i am confident that people like me and Redwood, who have known a hard time and been to the bottom of life, have an advantage over other people, because we know our limits and i have learnt that overcoming your own ego is a tough battle. When events will quicken and disasters will be everywhere, how are those people who are so focused on theirselves and their own lives going to learn in a few months the things that you can only learn through experience?Therefore it is written "those who lose their lifes shall find it and those who find their lives shall lose it".

[Woody]

Quote:

The more you start arguing about certain doctrines the more you drift away from what it is actually all about. All i can do is tune my heart as much as possible with the things Jesus said were important.

Quote:

Therefore it is written "those who lose their lifes shall find it and those who find their lives shall lose it".

Well said Truth. So true. Thank you for being so open and transparent here. We are blessed by your presence , insights and words.

[olger]

Absolutely 007.

Our Lord had much to say about the heart.

It is the center of all that we are.

Whatever is in our heart will come out in (3) ways.

1. The way we speak. (Matthew 12:34)

2. The way we think. (Proverbs 23:7)

3. The way we act. (Luke 6:45)

Blessings,

olger