carolaa Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: NON-ANSWERS that include words like Laodicean or Revival There ya go, right there. You cannot control this discussion like that. That is feminine because it keeps it nice and safe like women want. The answers are in scripture and Revelation chapter 3 has alot to do with this discussion. So far all the answers have been either do it outside of the church or at home - why? Nobody has suggested that it may be the church? (Laodicean attitude - "we have need of no change, we are ok). In the olden days (EGW's time), yes they sung the gentle songs but there was other stuff to balance it out. The men figured prominently in worship and the teaching and preaching was wild sister - much wilder than any conference would allow it's ministers to preach nowdays. Bravo for those who set up mens groups. We need to go much further than this though and make the services male friendly. Bring in some electric guitars and loud instruments. Stop the grannies from leading out and screeching into the mic on Sabbath mornings. Bring on the drums and put a couple of axes crossed over on the wall(very scriptural) instead of a croche'd rug. Have some guys who are not over dressed before the services look out for men in the foyer. Don't put preachers into the pulpit who do not have the gift of preaching. If people/your youth are falling asleep/getting bored during the sermon, then this is a sure sign the gift is not present. Remember, most males who will approach your church these days will come from a broken home and maybe even be brought up by mum. We have to de-feminise the church somehow because men on the street see the church as for wussies and a place where only weak men go. That is the perception and they may be correct. I think Stan was simply suggesting that we come up with practical suggestions as opposed to theory and complaining. That is not feminine. Good grief, if anything, it is masculine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: So is EW talking about herself with that quote? And is that a general statement, or is that referring to any particular areas? Oh MY!! I don't know. I am just trying to pick a fight with you Carolaa. Haven't I done a good job of that. The people here already know I support women. I just don't want to be too supportive since I am a man. I would hate to be accused in this thread of being too femanine Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Male Man Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 There is partly a truth in this but men have their temptations. Men, when you have been walking with your wife to your car one evening after a meal and a fight breaks out neaby, what happened? Did you jump behind her and clutch at her arm? (if you did you have serious problems pal) or did she do that? The latter is how God designed it and how it should be. Recent opinion shows that women choose the bad boy over the geek - why is that? Ladies want a man that leads and doesn't follow. Ladies, if you want your man to attend church with you then listen to this. You need to begin to influence/change the way your church does it's thing. Modern political society has largely been taken over by a thing called political correctness - go and learn what that means. This is mostly feminine driven and has permeated the church to the point where nothing is allowed that may upset the constituency. Safety preemminates over actually doing what Jesus wants. Dangerousness needs to be re-introduced into our churches. Hell, even EGW says that until the Laodicean message is preached then the shaking will not begin. She also says in GC that start preaching what we should be and the fires of persecution will once again ignite. Are you expereincing persecution in your town/church? Clear evidence that satan is happy with you and yours is a nice safe warm loving environment where those nasty disruptive men are kept from stirring the church up or creating conflict - heaven forbid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: So is EW talking about herself with that quote? And is that a general statement, or is that referring to any particular areas? Oh MY!! I don't know. I am just trying to pick a fight with you Carolaa. Haven't I done a good job of that. The people here already know I support women. I just don't want to be too supportive since I am a man. I would hate to be accused in this thread of being too femanine I can see that you're trying, but it's not a very good fight if you can't back up your statements. I'm afraid you will have to try harder if you want to attain the level of a manly man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 I am a cowardly man. I fight and then retreat. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 I am a cowardly man. I fight and then retreat. That may be the wisest way to fight -- particularly when it comes to women. ROFL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Male Man Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: I am a cowardly man. I fight and then retreat Jokes aside, this is more a serious display of a modern response than we may think. Sit down in front of your TV tonight and take notes for a half hour. In the shows/movies, who is made to look dumb and who is made to look smart and wear the pants? This is one of the ways we are being prepared for the future battle. Lay down men, bite your tongue, don't say anything, let her have her way because you and I know we are all just big dumb brutes right? Women weild a powerful stick in the media and the political scene - they will feature prominently in the end time scenes as Jezebel did - no mercy, just pure nastiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 That's the way I do it with MY woman. Sorry Olger ... I know you are the "man" of your house. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Male Man Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: That's the way I do it with MY woman. . And then that is the way you will do it with your women folk at church. Is this attitude helping men come into the church or worse helping them leave? Another simple test. Stay back in the car for a few moments before Sabbath School. Watch the families and couples walking to the door. Who walks out in front? A sure sign a man has given over his authority to his wife is if he consistently brings up the rear and she walks in front. (ooh this is gonna hurt some strong feminists on here). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldona Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Quote: You cannot control this discussion like that. That is feminine because it keeps it nice and safe like women want. The only people I have ever hear use the word "control" in the same sentence as "discussion" or "conversation" have been male. If you truly had a clue how female psychology works, you would know that we see a "discussion" is not something that can be controlled. It develops a life of its own, entirely dependent on whatever the contributors decide to add to it. It is men, not women, who usually have a need to "control" everything. Quote: Stop the grannies from leading out and screeching into the mic on Sabbath mornings. Quote: Bring on the drums and put a couple of axes crossed over on the wall(very scriptural) instead of a croche'd rug. Quote: wanting to attend a worship service that doesn't make us feel like we are watching a Mary Poppins show. Quote: I thought this was the section for real Ozzy's but it seems like the local knitting club. I don't know what sort of experiences you have had with the women in your life, but the sarcasm dripping from these and other remarks in other threads speaks volumes. If all the information we had about you is these words that you have posted, we would conclude that there is something fundamentally wrong with your attitude towards women in general. Making the church more male-friendly is a worthy goal, but insulting the other sex at every opportunity is probably not the best way to do it. Would you stand by while somebody used these kinds of sarcastic remarks about your wife, mother, grandmother, sister or daughter? To use your own words - if you would, you have serious problems pal. The red-blooded manly man of old times was known for his respectful attitude towards his women folk. Go and look up the word "CHIVALRY" in the dictionary. You know, all that old-fashioned stuff about letting women and children in the lifeboats first. Maybe if today's "real men" took this kind of attitude towards leadership, instead of just thumping their chests and yelling "I'm a MALE! I'm IN CONTROL!", then women would have no difficulty at all in following them. Most women would crawl over broken glass to kiss the feet of a real old-fashioned gentleman who treated them with respect. Quote: What Mens forum? I can't see that anywhere here?Once again - get rid of him because his ideas do not conform to the establishment. Hey, if you come into the discussion with never so much as a greeting and start spraying sarcastic remarks in all directions, don't be surprised if others respond in like manner. You're the one who wasn't happy with the environment here because there were too many females. The options are: 1. We girls can all go away and leave you to pontificate in a woman-free environment. 2. You can find a forum that better suits your needs. 3. You can create a forum that better suits your needs. 4. You can try to find common ground with those who are already here, and have a discussion without constantly checking and commenting on the sex of whoever makes every comment. aldona Quote www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne)Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each monthIMSLP/Petrucci Music LibraryThe Public Domain Music Score Library - Free Sheet Music DownloadsLooking for classical sheet music? Try IMSLP first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 13, 2008 carolaa* said: Quote: Those are all great, wonderful ideas, but I think the original question was about how we can make our *worship services* more meaningful to the manly man. Ah yeah, you're right there. I'll try to look at the church-related stuff in a sec, but I think part of making the worship service meaningful is making it a communal rather than an individual event, and those kinds of activities help to build up the community. In terms of the worship service, all of my churches in the past 13 or 14 years have used the drums, bass, electric guitars in worship... and had better numbers of men in attendance than more traditional churches, but still less than the number of women in attendance. So I'm not sure style is the issue. I think it's more about substance. I take Aldona's well made points about changes to men vs changes to the church, but at the same time I'd question whether the hymns are necessary all meek and mild. Rather, they're often challenging, powerful and majestic: 'A Mighty Fortress Is Our God', even belted out with a little electric organ, let alone on a mighty pipe organ, is so much more 'meaty' and meaningful than a dozen repetitive choruses of 'Our God Is An Awesome God', even electrically amplified. So I do think the church has lost something. I do also think there's a lot of twaddle talked (with apologies to Male Man and his confreres) about the 'feminisation of the church'. The danger and challenge has to be the danger and challenge of the gospel, and whether we like it or not the gospel is about how to live peacefully with those around us. Our pastor challenged us, for example, on the issue of the speed limit - if we can't bring ourselves under properly constituted authority on that simple thing, how can we fully bring ourselves under God's authority. Those kinds of things are tough, but might not satisfy the hairy-chested... The other thing is that the vast majority of preaching is still done by men and much of the organising too - so this 'vast feminine conspiracy' is a bit hard to swallow. I don't think transforming church to include men is the key, although there might be some tweaks around the edges. I really do think the key is the relationships. Those are something that is broken down in a 'split nucleus family' world. Men used to get together for barn raisings or whatever other real-world, focused activities, and also used to have fathers and grandfathers and brothers and cousins around them. As there's less of that it's important that church provides more... and if it doesn't men may not see the value of attending, particularly if they're not feeling challenged to live better lives. Not just 'holier' lives in the narrow sense of not doing wrong stuff, but better lives in the sense of being more powerful, productive, successful and really influencing the world around them. There's also room for quality control of preachers and leaders in the church - and I'm sure the women in the congregation won't mind either if the sermons are actually compelling and challenging and thought-provoking. My younger brother is an awesome preacher! * Sorry, but I do tend to pronounce this screen-name in my head as 'Carol - Aaarghh!' Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 13, 2008 Agreed in all points with Aldona (who posted as I was posting) Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Another simple test. Stay back in the car for a few moments before Sabbath School. Watch the families and couples walking to the door. Who walks out in front? A sure sign a man has given over his authority to his wife is if he consistently brings up the rear and she walks in front. (ooh this is gonna hurt some strong feminists on here). That's one interpretation. Here's another: man walks behind his family, keeping an eye on them and protecting them--a natural "masculine" instinct (for those who believe in stereotypical instincts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 13, 2008 Good call, cricket - pretty easy to over-lay just about any interpretation on the behaviour we see, and often what is described says more about the interpreter than the situation. As it happens, I always, always walk side by side with my wife, holding her hand or with my arm around her. Always have and always will. The kids are allowed to hold hands (and it's pretty cool that my 14 and 17 year old daughters still want to, or will tkae my arm in a shopping centre) on the 'outside', but never to get between us. Perhaps part of the reason men aren't attending is because they're not enjoying this kind of closeness with their families? I dunno. Think about this scenario for a minute. For whatever reason, I'm a bloke with a believing wife. I love her, and I also love sport, or computers, and a beer and some prawns now and then. Perhaps I don't always remember I'm with church folk and moderate my language (although I have old-fashioned values and only swear with the boys, not around women and children). if I come to church and constantly feel judged (perhaps including by my wife), and that in order to be allowed to be any kind of full participant I'll have to give up a lot of the things I enjoy, and if I never get to participate or take on any responsibilities in the church... then how enticing is that prospect? I'm just trying for empathy to most of the guys I know who are in this situation. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 13, 2008 In terms of the worship service ... at the same time I'd question whether the hymns are necessary all meek and mild. Rather, they're often challenging, powerful and majestic: 'A Mighty Fortress Is Our God', even belted out with a little electric organ, let alone on a mighty pipe organ, is so much more 'meaty' and meaningful than a dozen repetitive choruses of 'Our God Is An Awesome God', even electrically amplified. How true! Quote Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Mybe we should just have one church with two sanctuaries. One for the manly men and one for the womanly women. :) Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 Think about this scenario for a minute. For whatever reason, I'm a bloke with a believing wife. I love her, and I also love sport, or computers, and a beer and some prawns now and then. Perhaps I don't always remember I'm with church folk and moderate my language (although I have old-fashioned values and only swear with the boys, not around women and children). if I come to church and constantly feel judged (perhaps including by my wife), and that in order to be allowed to be any kind of full participant I'll have to give up a lot of the things I enjoy, and if I never get to participate or take on any responsibilities in the church... then how enticing is that prospect? I'm just trying for empathy to most of the guys I know who are in this situation. LOL. Think about this scenario for a minute. For whatever reason, I'm a woman with a believing husband. I love him, and I also love sport, or computers, and a beer and some prawns now and then. Perhaps I don't always remember I'm with church folk and moderate my language (although I have old-fashioned values and only swear around peers). If I come to church and constantly feel judged (perhaps including by my husband), and that in order to be allowed to be any kind of full participant I'll have to give up a lot of the things I enjoy, and if I never get to participate or take on any responsibilities in the church... then how enticing is that prospect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 13, 2008 Touche... and I agree, that is a situation which demands the same sensitivities. I suspect it's probably rarer, but we're after *everyone* here, so rare doesn't mean unimportant. Actually, in terms of this discussion, it might be interesting to think about the role of social class: maybe church didn't get feminine, it just got middle class. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cricket Posted January 13, 2008 Share Posted January 13, 2008 :: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Bravus, it seems your church is quite a bit ahead of mine in the men's ministry department. We just started our men's ministry in August. What kills me is we don't have a church directory. We are making one and I have requested an advanced copy. It will have all names, addresses, phone numbers and emails. That information is so crucial when a ministry depends on building relationships. Our Sunday morning breakfasts are quite informal by design. We have a topic and an informal discussion about it. I have purposely tried to keep it from feeling like a prayer meeting or Bible study. The whole purpose is just to get men together to bond. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Our church had a guys day where they met in the cafagymatorium to watch football. They also have a regular monthly mens breakfast. Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 * Sorry, but I do tend to pronounce this screen-name in my head as 'Carol - Aaarghh!' Well, I've actually been thinking of changing my name, but you have shown me that this one fits pretty well! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 What kills me is we don't have a church directory. We are making one and I have requested an advanced copy. It will have all names, addresses, phone numbers and emails. That information is so crucial when a ministry depends on building relationships. So true!! I can't believe how many churches lack this one basic thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 cafagymatorium I love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Allan Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 Get more men by 1. starting on time 2. ending on time 3. using a fast paced order of service 4. not letting anyone behind the pulpit except the main speaker and one other helper per service (this will cut down on excess verbage and keep things moving.) 5. keeping the announcements in the bulletin and off the platform 6. sticking to a liberal mainstream message 7. preach the gospel and not "hands across the gulf" nonsense. Quote dAb O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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