Reaching Males

[Woody]

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One has no control over what these lay people are going to say, and usually their comments are lacking in grace, and seasoning. Lacking in the qualities inherent in good preaching. ...

Often there is a call for spiritual self-flagelation.

Yeah .... I've been told more than once that I need a good flagelation. They hint at a little flagging here and a little flagging there. Then they hit you with the big one.

My wife and I were just talking about this flagelation issue in our churches. A Pastor or the flock can get really bogged down if we look to people and their sins. All this calling sin by its name will destroy a good church and/or Pastor in short order.

We are to look to Christ and not be concerned with the speck in our brothers eye. There WILL be sins and plenty of sins in God's remnant. EGW clearly points this out to us. Need I be the myth patroler? Our focus needs to be on our relationship with Christ and not the faults and sins of our fellow believer.

I know you believe this .... but our church is just a reflection of us individually. And WE ARE SINFUL. So, you will see in church that that is reflected in those who get up and speak. I love it when I see faulty and sinful people up front. I particularly love to see those with jewelry up front doing anything from singing to speaking. That indicates that our church is doing its job of being inclusive and using all people. It becomes colorful and uplifting when ALL of the body is being used to bless us.

When someone is participating with jewelry on it show that we love ALL of God's children not just those who conform QUICKLY to our set of rules. And this is coming from someone who has never worn jewelry. I just love to see all of the Body included and participating. The new believers add such vibrant joy and enthusiasm to the service.

So, I have decided to over-look the

calls for self-flagelation. We are not all grown up Christians yet. And some need to call for more flageling than others.

[Dr. Shane]

While I can sympathize with those that don't like the long parade of people up front before the sermon, some people actually like that. It gives the church service the family-feel. Our evangelistic crusades are gear more toward being entertaining and drawing in the crowds while the church service is family. So Brother Tom rambles on about the dangers of cheese and Sister Sally's wears out me knees every time she is asked to offer the prayer. These are aspects of belonging to a family that is not yet perfect.

Myself, I am a bit restless and find it a real exercise of patience to sit through all of it. For me, it could be like an evangelistic crusade or a Broadway production and I would be happy.

[Woody]

I can respect that Shane. But as my post above indicates ... I feel so good with the "family" approach. I love seeing and hearing a variety of people and experiencing their particular flavor. It is kinda like what we experience here. Variety is the spice of life.

However, I can certainly respect and appreciate that others can feel as you. So, we need to try our best to compromise and give a little to each need.

[D. Allan]

...Myself, I am a bit restless and find it a real exercise of patience to sit through all of it. For me, it could be like an evangelistic crusade or a Broadway production and I would be happy.

Broadway! That sounds real good! :)

[D. Allan]

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My wife and I were just talking about this flagelation issue in our churches. A Pastor or the flock can get really bogged down if we look to people and their sins.

And that is just what the flagellators do!

We don't do that in MY family!

I like to see all kinds of people up front. Except hypocrites telling other people how to repent. Let's have more real sinners up front. Not faux-sinners. (They don't really believe they are sinners.) Anyway it is all academic in my case because I quit going when some fundamentalist began challangeing the preacher one Sabbath, and argueing from his pew, disrupting the sermon, putting everyone on edge. He didn't like the new innovations like digital slide projection during the sermon, 'you are misleading the people' he kept saying. My wife goes by herself now. I don't know how/why she puts up with it! That is an example of extreme flagellation of the preacher! It is very hard on new converts! You can't keep 'em that way. Usually it is a more subtle flagellation of everyone! I can't stand it. I really would rather see a delegation of nudists on stage singing rock and roll style hymns! That would be more pleasing to "God," too, no doubt.

Anyway, I don't really have a concern in it anymore. It is just an idea on, maybe a reason, why there are fewer males in church than females.

[aldona]

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Another simple test. Stay back in the car for a few moments before Sabbath School. Watch the families and couples walking to the door. Who walks out in front? A sure sign a man has given over his authority to his wife is if he consistently brings up the rear and she walks in front.

THAT has NOTHING to do with who is in charge!!! THAT is merely being courteous! For a man to stride out in front with wife and children meekly following behind is THE HEIGHT OF RUDENESS! It always has been and it always will be. A REAL man is a protector of his family. Most MEN (real men, I mean) would let the kids go in front (so he and his wife can keep four eyes on them) and he would walk WITH his wife because he loves to be able to be WITH her -- after all, if the marriage is happy, they love walking together. You have painted a picture, not of a Christian man, but of an abusive beast. That makes my blood boil!

Beryl

Amen to what Beryl said.

I can only recall one example of a man confidently striding out in front and his wife dutifully walking six steps behind. When I was growing up, I lived in a very multi-cultural neighbourhood in south-east Melbourne. There was an old man who was probably a Muslim mufti or similar, who would take his morning walk dressed in his full Arab attire with robe and head-dress, etc. His wife would follow quite a distance behind, wearing her burqa and with her gaze cast down to the ground.

When my husband and I go to church, he goes ahead of me and opens the door for me. (small church building - no automatic opening door!) Especially if I am carrying something like a musical instrument or a plate of food for the potluck. I say "thank you" in the old-fashioned non-feminazi manner. Then we head off to Sabbath School together.

The more I follow this thread, the more I thank the good Lord that "Male Man" is not my husband.

aldona

[Woody]

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I really would rather see a delegation of nudists on stage singing rock and roll style hymns! That would be more pleasing to "God," too, no doubt.

D. Allen .... I agree with you 100%. I don't doubt that God has no problem with our bodies ... after all HE made them . And nudists don't even make the top ten on His wanted poster.

[Guest Male Man]

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OOOooooh, boy...have you unleashed the tiger now....and one who is experienced.... You had better grovel your way to an appology quick or backpeddle fast...

You may be joking dude, but it just shows the culture of feminisation leaking out again. A site like this will definitely tolerate an angry woman but in my experience, sites do not tolerate the same for males. Just more evidence that something is not right.

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Good Preaching is probably the most important. Second to that is preventing the flavor of the good preaching from being ruined by everybody who gets up front, (for announcements, for prayer, for scripture reading, for hymn singing, etc.) giving a short sermon of their own! A fast-paced controlled order of service is needed to obviate that most debilitating and dispiriting effect.

Agree there. This is a starting point. nobody should preach if they have reputations for being boring or they do not have the gift of preaching. I would rather have a testimony service or a group discussion than listen to someone rattle on in a weak fashion.

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All this calling sin by its name will destroy a good church and/or Pastor in short order.

You have missed the point if you think it is just about calling sin by it's right name. I agree we cannot have too much emphasis on that and overbalance preaching with pure negativity. However it is needed still and we are not getting it. We also need attention holding speakers who can deliver God's message in a way that competes with TV or Video games which our people are hooked on in some form or another.

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Let's have more real sinners up front.

My thoughts exactly but this needs to be understood in context. What you mean and I am assuming we are on the same page is that too often people are kept from having a go up front because they don't fit the classical church mold of a "nice" person. I know of some young men in my church who have great zeal and I can see young upcoming preachers who have ecellent qualities. Will they ever get to preach? Not unless they go to college and come back feminised.

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I can only recall one example of a man confidently striding out in front and his wife dutifully walking six steps behind.

And so at other times you have seen what in the church car park? - what is more sickening?

The Muslim religion has clear fundamental violations of womens rights but they lack not for male converts - why? Because their religion fosters those things that are inherant male needs. Just like the church fosters an environment where women flourish but neglects mens needs.

I have not said the male has to walk in front - let me be clear on this. I have said that in a femine dominated environment like the typical SDA church, the women wear the pants and have created for themselves a nice place to worship. The sabbath school conversations and the charge for the door in the carpark are only symptoms that this si the case in many churches.

What has my being your husband have to do with this conversation? Unless you know me you don't know what kind of husband I would be. Let me say however, if your man adopted a more male orientated approach to church and life (does he even go to church - now there's a point to ponder?), he would make a better husband and father. Most women who's men have joined the male church movement are happy because they like a more male man than the whimps the church processing plant pumps out on a yearly basis.

[aldona]

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if your man adopted a more male orientated approach to church and life (does he even go to church - now there's a point to ponder?), he would make a better husband and father.

A couple of points:

1. What exactly is not "male orientated" about opening the door for a lady? How should my husband behave so that you deem his approach to be "male orientated"?

2. If you had been paying attention, you would not need to ask whether my husband goes to church. Read my post again. Not only is he one of the most regular attenders at our church, but he is the leader of the youth Sabbath school, regularly leads out in worship services and we are jointly responsible for the music.

He has been known to preach a few sermons, and managed to hold everybody's undivided attention. He can present truths from the Bible in an interesting and appealing way by drawing from the things in life that he is good at - science, technology, music and mathematics.

He would have nothing but scorn for you if he saw your insinuations that somehow his approach is less than manly. (interesting call on your part, given you have never met the man.)

We do not have any children, so the "father" bit is not relevant at this stage, but he is a fine husband and a fine Christian, and he certainly does not need any improvement advice from you.

aldona

[Bravus]

I don't get too many complaints either.

[Neil D]

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The more I follow this thread, the more I thank the good Lord that "Male Man" is not my husband.

OI! Now you did it....You got other Ozzie Females mad at you...I hope you got absestos underwear, because you are surely gonna need it to protect vital parts...

You may not know it, but I spent a year in Korea....teaching english and bible to the Koreans....In thier culture, a successful man, was a business man...dressed in a suit, immaculately clean and leading his wife, who has the children by the hand, with the baggages that the family needs. She is sweating to carry the load, mind the children ect. He is cool and calm and collected....That was the ideal...in reality, he aint as cool and collected as is projected. We,Student missionary, when we saw a 'sucessful businessman' smiled and pittied the woman of the house... If this is your idea of a sucessful man, I can pass on that...

[D. Allan]

Is something wrong with me?

Between the "more male type" and the feminised whimp type... somehow I just can't help admiring the whimps more. Sorry.

No, I take that back. I'm not sorry!!! I'm firm on that!

andI don't want to hear any whimpering about it. My judgement is final!

ROFL

[cricket]

As an encouragement to the male men in our society who feel threatened by the feminine movement, I offer this slogan that has helped women through the ages:

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Right on, Cricket!!!!

I Am Woman

[Guest Male Man]

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We do not have any children, so the "father" bit is not relevant at this stage, but he is a fine husband and a fine Christian, and he certainly does not need any improvement advice from you.

Well, we all know who he is now so what can I say except that he must have a cast iron stomach to last here as long as he has.

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dressed in a suit, immaculately clean and leading his wife, who has the children by the hand, with the baggages that the family needs. She is sweating to carry the load,

You still aint getting it? I don't agree with that culture either.

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Is something wrong with me?

Between the "more male type" and the feminised whimp type... somehow I just can't help admiring the whimps more. Sorry.

- dude you need help.

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to the male men in our society who feel threatened by the feminine movement,

- threatened? You guys are acting like you are threatened - you are playing into my hands silly. The feminist movement had many good points but it has morphed into the politically correct movement where fear of being offensive is placed in front of doing what is right.

You guys have taken this topic off it's original course and immaturely made it into a male vs female debate. Answer the questions, contribute or butt out.

[cricket]

The feminist movement had many good points but it has morphed into the politically correct movement where fear of being offensive is placed in front of doing what is right.

You guys have taken this topic off it's original course and immaturely made it into a male vs female debate. Answer the questions, contribute or butt out.

So, is it the feminist movement you blame, or the politically correct movement?

My post, amusing as it was, was not off topic in the least. For those with a mind as creative as mine, it should have been clear that the post was intended to help the men who feel slighted because of the feminist movement to actually do something about it themselves (just as women had to do decades ago).

Instead of coming to a forum that is allegedly populated by "feminazis", why not start a forum of your own--driven by membership of those like-minded? Start a reform! Start a movement! To quote a brilliant man among men, "Be the change you want to see in the world."

[Guest Male Man]

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So, is it the feminist movement you blame, or the politically correct movement?

In my view one came out of the other - kinda like it's baby. The feminist movement today has strayed from it's original intent and become extreme and man hating. The child - the political correct movement, is more subtle and uses the guise of safety and being non offensive. Both sexes can be caught up in it and be totally unaware that their lives are controlled by it. So it's basis was/is feministic but it's ultimate effect has been to make everyone hypersensitive about what others think to the point of becoming ineffective in helping the community.

Just one small example here in Oz is where the giant grocery companies regularly throw out large quantities of out of date food through their back doors into the trash. In most cases there is nothing wrong with alot of the food. When approached by various aid organisations they say they cannot give it away in case someone get's sick from it and dies or whatever. So the waste of food is phenominal. The guise is that they care about people but really it is because of litigation. If someone gets ill they may sue the company and so they will lose money and reputation.

Similarly with the church. If the right message is preached in a proper way then it will upset people and divide the churches. So very subtley the church has backed off and right from college all the way down the process line we are conditioned to be nice and not offend anyone. This in turn lessens the effect of the Gospel and it's impact on newcomers and church members alike. The guise is that we are a nice church and really caring but the reality is that we don't want our public image spoiled or ruined by some radical preacher - it's all PR and it stinks.

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Instead of coming to a forum that is allegedly populated by "feminazis", why not start a forum of your own--driven by membership of those like-minded? Start a reform! Start a movement! To quote a brilliant man among men, "Be the change you want to see in the world."

Because this is my mission I believe. I run a mens group at my own church but I want to take this liberating message to church people. Speaking out here is one of those ways I can do this. RThe responses evoked here have not been a surprise to me because this is what is experienced by my counterparts all over the world when trying to introduce male friendly services down at church.

[Woody]

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butt out

I know of only one person who is the "butt" of the conversation.

[Woody]

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"it stinks"

The church that I love ... Does NOT "stink". Our church DOES Love each other and our community. Our church "models" it's Christianity. Our Pastor "leads". She is transforming our church without "knocking" them over the head with the truth of their sinfulness. The Holy Spirit does a fine job of doing that ... she doesn't need to.

[Woody]

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" trying to introduce male friendly services down at church."

As a male here .... I am not interested in your "friendliness". If it comes at the expense of those that I respect .... UNmanly males , respectful women and our elders .... then I want no part of that.

By their fruits you will know them. And the fruit that I have tasted here is bitter.

[Guest Male Man]

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I know of only one person who is the "butt" of the conversation

Gee your personal attacks Redwood are so funny.

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Our Pastor "leads". She is transforming our church without "knocking" them over the head with the truth of their sinfulness. The Holy Spirit does a fine job of doing that ... she doesn't need to.

That's it, you keep telling yourself it's the Holy Spirit's work and we shall be here another millenia.

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By their fruits you will know them

You think I'm bitter? You need to look in the mirror RW.

[Gene]

Male Man,

I've been watching and reading some of your posts, and I'm a little confused. I see that you have been catagorizing people, and then implying a stereotype to them, then associating it to what you think they beleive.

Similarly with the church. If the right message is preached in a proper way then it will upset people and divide the churches. So very subtley the church has backed off and right from college all the way down the process line we are conditioned to be nice and not offend anyone. This in turn lessens the effect of the Gospel and it's impact on newcomers and church members alike. The guise is that we are a nice church and really caring but the reality is that we don't want our public image spoiled or ruined by some radical preacher - it's all PR and it stinks.

I'd like your point clearified. If you could post "the right message", "preached in the proper way". This would give me a chance to reply and fill you in on what a real "Male" thinks about what you're saying. If you'd like I can also supply references as to my qualifications for being a "Real Male". People within and outside the church will attest to my character.

Another thing, why do you want to "divide the church", is this to weed out the weak ones!

Let's see what you got!

Gene

[Guest Male Man]

faulty post

[Guest Male Man]

I would not doubt your maleness but if you are saying you are not influenced by political correct thinking or you have not taken on some of the feminist culture of your church will remain to be seen. Even I am influenced by it at times but I have to try hard not to be.

The "right message" as I understand it (and this particularly goes for the type of churches you and I attend which is affluent western), is the messgae designed for our time. Daniel, Revelation and messages that centre on the second coming. I mean, here we are at the end of th eage and I can almost garantee if you walked into any one of our churches this sabbath you would more than likely not hear a sermon remotely related to these topics. They have become contraversial and so preachers - probably more the paid ones - don't go there for fear of creating conflict.

I am talking from my own country on this but from my conversations with other church people in the US it sounds the same there too.

I never said I want to divide the church? Church conflict however is usually seen as bad and not seen as evidence that Christ and satan may have stakes in what is happening. Church controversy or splitting is not necissarily evidence that the pastor or preacher has failed but may be the very opposite.

[David Koot]

Hurricane, Utah???? Hmmm. Last person who I saw post here from Hurricane, Utah claimed to have a special message that Jesus had given him personally, and there was quite a lively discussion. Now, the odds of someone else from Hurricane, Utah being on C/A? Interesting. Could you be the one who claimed to have been given that message? Perhaps appearing under a different screen name?

Dave