Hypocrites In The Church

[Guest Male Man]

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The whole incident tended to strengthen my perception of some church administration types as motivated by self-interest and job preservation.

Sorry to sound like a broken record but this relates to the church's over preservation of it's reputation which is caught rather than taught but it is there. Holding onto one's job becomes paramount rather than doing the right thing. If more admin supported our pastors in becoming the radica agents for salvation that God intended then more pastors would not feel obliged to tow the party line just to save their asses.Used to be a pastor.

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when the church fails to deal with them and we are left injured and without justice, we have to move on.

Hmmm, dunno about that. I think when Jesus asks us to defend the defenseless it isn't about us anymore. So we just walk away and allow the perpetrators to roam free and to do it again - uh, uh. We are our brothers keepers.

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I thought bringing someone to repentance was the work of the Holy Spirit

That's right, just sit back and leave everything to the Holy Spirit.

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So, I am on the brink . . . I really, really want to draw the sword and use it with all the skill I can bring to bear. Am trying hard to hold back, but it is NOT EASY. One more foolish act by this clown, and everything will break loose

Just hurl off and hit the guy.

Seriously dude, I've been where you've been -praying for them and wresling with God over it but sometimes I wonder if I would really feel better if I just hit them.

On the streets these guys would be mince meat if they tried half the stuff they try on church folk - again - WE ARE TOO NICE!!!!

They use us and walk all over us knowing we are good little addies and will lie down in green pastures for them. Sometimes I wish someone would just punch these jerks out and bring them back to reality - that would be better for them than 100 prayers.

[Woody]

Again I did not make the statement that I was credited with.

[David Koot]

Seriously dude, I've been where you've been -praying for them and wresling with God over it but sometimes I wonder if I would really feel better if I just hit them.

[Woody]

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O Lord, have mercy on me and help me. I want to do what Jesus would do, but also have the power to do harm. Help me, Lord, to be like Jesus.

Dave ... the Lord knows your good heart. We may sometimes slip. But He knows that our intentions are for His good and for His glory. And I think he is honored by that.

[carolaa]

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That doesn't mean we can't love the perpetrators or recognize that they are sick - that is part of forgiveness, after all.

The Bible says that we are to consider them as Heathen. I can honestly say that I've gone through the complete process and found a few heathens. My challenge is how to go on while knowing they are heathen. Do I proclaim from the mountain tops that they are heathen? Some of those here are the very ones who proclaim that we are to "call sin by it's name". But I doubt that they would appreciate me calling them heathen even though the Bible tells me to. I think I would get censored by that particular moderator.

That's not really what I'm talking about; I'm talking about people who hurt others because of a physical or emotional problem they have; they are sick. We can recognize that and forgive them while at the same time holding them accountable for their actions and their sickness. But I think what you are talking about is people who hurt others because they are sinners; they have character deficiencies in that they don't care enough about others to treat them respectfully.

But to answer your question, I would ask what the Bible says about how we are supposed to treat the heathen? I think we are supposed to show them love and treat them with kindness and respect, as far as possible. And we are to follow Matthew 18, which it sounds like you have tried to do. That's really all you can do. If their behavior continues, then you have to decide for yourself whether or not to have further discussions with the person and how you can best help others whom this person may still be hurting.

[carolaa]

Just hurl off and hit the guy.

Seriously dude, I've been where you've been -praying for them and wresling with God over it but sometimes I wonder if I would really feel better if I just hit them.

On the streets these guys would be mince meat if they tried half the stuff they try on church folk - again - WE ARE TOO NICE!!!!

They use us and walk all over us knowing we are good little addies and will lie down in green pastures for them. Sometimes I wish someone would just punch these jerks out and bring them back to reality - that would be better for them than 100 prayers.

Since when is it important to make you feel better? And I thought feelings were for the feminazis, anyway. When you respond like that, it makes you no better than them. Jesus came to show us a better way. Christians respond to trials differently than people on the streets do.

[Woody]

[carolaa]

[quote name='David Koot Sometimes you gotta restrain a person like that.

And that does work. My ex-wife did a huge amount of damage to me' date=' and continued to destroy. Finally, the time came when I decided to do something about it. I filed a massive motion with supporting declarations as part of the follow-up from the divorce. Already, her lawyer had papered one judge who had read what I had previously filed and did not see his client in a favorable light. I then gave her lawyer, who is one of the best in his specialty in town, if not the best, an option to either go to court, in which case I would expect to collect thousands and thousands of dollars, or to GET OPFF MY CASE. I made an offer, it worked, and since that time I have not been harassed, at least not lately. So, yes, it does work.

Dave [/quote']

I've been in similar shoes. That's one of a very few times when I spent a significant amount of time in fasting and prayer, and I can say that the results were impressive - both in court and in me personally. On the other hand, I do wonder if there are times when it is our responsibility to fight for what we believe to be right, for example in a case of child custody. Maybe the answer is to do everything we can righteously do (short of breaking an obvious commandment) and leave the results with God.

There have been many times that I have taken it upon myself to call a person's (or church's) bluff or responded in kind - in other words, speaking to them in language they can understand. And that often will get the desired results. But I have to say in retrospect I wonder what might have happened if I had given the situation up to God. Sometimes I feel bad that I didn't have enough faith to do that and that I really missed an opportunity to see what God could do. And sometimes it is God's will that we go through the fire, but we mess up His plan by taking care of it ourselves.

[David Koot]

On the other hand, I do wonder if there are times when it is our responsibility to fight for what we believe to be right, for example in a case of child custody.

Yep. And I guess I really blew it. After the divorce was filed, we had the usual stipulations and interloc involving such things as visitation and finances. Everything went downhill after that. My ex cut off all contact. She told my that my children threw away the presents I sent them, and that they couldn't wait to turn 18 to get rid of my name. And much worse than that. I pleaded and pleaded for cooperation for the sake of the children, and wanted so much to see my children. No response. I prayed and prayed and prayed. People told me I should go to court. I responded that I did not want to force things, that I was waiting for God to work in the lives of my ex-wife and children. I prayed for three years. Finally, I went to court. The mediator asked me, 'Why did you wait so long?' The upshot of it was, she said that now the children were adjusted to life without dad. My ex's lawyer said to me that 'mom had decided there is to be no contact.' A flagrant violation of the most basic public policy. I thought, if only I had acted sooner. I went to see a counselor who used the term, 'parental alienation syndrome.' Evil was done, and prevailed, I guess.

Dave

[John317]

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But But But . I thought bringing someone to repentance was the work of the Holy Spirit.

Charis ... there sure seems to be a lot of buts here. "But" I will try to respond. Repentance is not all it is cracked up to be. Satan repented ... but it was just not enough. So ... where does that leave us ????

Satan never truly repented. He was only sorry for the consequences, like Esau and Judas, but that is not true repentance. Satan finally got to the point where he can't repent. He made himself who is he is and he's stuck with his choices forever. Humans also pass their probationary period.

People too often forget that repentance is really a gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit moves us to repent, but if we refuse to repent, the time will come eventually when we can't sincerely repent.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

On the other hand, I do wonder if there are times when it is our responsibility to fight for what we believe to be right, for example in a case of child custody.

Yep. And I guess I really blew it. After the divorce was filed, we had the usual stipulations and interloc involving such things as visitation and finances. Everything went downhill after that. My ex cut off all contact.

My former wife tried to keep me from visiting our kids when I was able to, because she only wanted me to visit both at the same time. I showed an attorney our divorce agreement, and he told me to tell my former wife she would find herself in court immediately if she didn't allow me to visit when I wanted to. As soon as I called her and told her I had seen a lawyer, she said, "I changed my mind and have decided you can visit." I said, "Thank you," and we had no further problems.

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She told my that my children threw away the presents I sent them, and that they couldn't wait to turn 18 to get rid of my name. And much worse than that. I pleaded and pleaded for cooperation for the sake of the children, and wanted so much to see my children. No response. I prayed and prayed and prayed. People told me I should go to court. I responded that I did not want to force things, that I was waiting for God to work in the lives of my ex-wife and children. I prayed for three years. Finally, I went to court. The mediator asked me, 'Why did you wait so long?' The upshot of it was, she said that now the children were adjusted to life without dad. My ex's lawyer said to me that 'mom had decided there is to be no contact.' A flagrant violation of the most basic public policy. I thought, if only I had acted sooner. I went to see a counselor who used the term, 'parental alienation syndrome.' Evil was done, and prevailed, I guess.Dave

God also uses the legal system to bring about some justice on this earth. I don't know your particular situation, but in most cases, the father can resolve these things legally so that he has the right to visitation.

[Woody]

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Satan never truly repented . He was only sorry for the consequences, like Esau and Judas, but that is not true repentance.

You may be right John317. I don't know. Perhaps Ellen White didn't have a full understanding of real repentance when she made this statement ...

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" After Satan was shut out of heaven, with those who fell with him, he realized that he had lost all the purity and glory of heaven forever. Then he repented and wished to be reinstated in heaven. He was willing to take his proper place, or any place that might be assigned him......He and his followers repented, wept and implored to be taken back into the favor of God. But no, their sin , their hate, their envy and jealousy, had been so great that God could not blot it out . It must remain to receive it's final punishment " (Spiritual Gifts Vol. 1 pp 18,19).

She doesn't mention that his repentance was not good enough ... she says his sin was too great. But, who knows.

[John317]

Quote:

Satan never truly repented. He was only sorry for the consequences, like Esau and Judas, but that is not true repentance.

You may be right John317. I don't know. Perhaps Ellen White didn't have a full understanding of real repentance when she made this statement ...

Quote:

" After Satan was shut out of heaven, with those who fell with him, he realized that he had lost all the purity and glory of heaven forever. Then he repented and wished to be reinstated in heaven. He was willing to take his proper place, or any place that might be assigned him......He and his followers repented, wept and implored to be taken back into the favor of God. But no, their sin , their hate, their envy and jealousy, had been so great that God could not blot it out . It must remain to receive it's final punishment " (Spiritual Gifts Vol. 1 pp 18,19).

She doesn't mention that his repentance was not good enough ... she says his sin was too great. But, who knows.

It's not really about forgiveness. God can forgive, but unless the person experiences true repentance, the forgiveness of God does no good. Why? Because the person hasn't changed; they remain just what they were before, determined to continue committing sin. That's what happened to Satan. He was sorry for sin in the sense that he feared being cast off by God because of it, but he wasn't truly sorry for the sin itself. That's what happens when people keep deliberately committing sin-- they reach the point where they can't change, even if they want to for fear of being lost. It's as if they create a thick callous over their heart and over their conscience. The Bible calls it "searing their conscience."

Please read carefully the following description of Lucifer and his fall:

GC 495-504

Leaving his place in the immediate presence of God, Lucifer went forth to diffuse the spirit of discontent among the angels. Working with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealing his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God, he endeavored to excite dissatisfaction concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that they imposed an unnecessary restraint. Since their natures were holy, he urged that the angels should obey the dictates of their own will. He sought to create sympathy for himself by representing that God had dealt unjustly with him in bestowing supreme honor upon Christ. He claimed that in aspiring to greater power and honor he was not aiming at self-exaltation, but was seeking to secure liberty for all the inhabitants of heaven, that by this means they might attain to a higher state of existence.

God in His great mercy bore long with Lucifer. He was not immediately degraded from his exalted station when he first indulged the spirit of discontent, nor even when he began to present his false claims before the loyal angels. Long was he retained in heaven. Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as only infinite love and wisdom could devise were made to convince him of his error. The spirit of discontent had never before been known in heaven. Lucifer himself did not at first see whither he was drifting; he did not understand the real nature of his feelings. But as his dissatisfaction was proved to be without cause, Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong, that the divine claims were just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God. Though he had forsaken his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office. But pride forbade him to submit. He persistently defended his own course, maintained that he had no need of repentance, and fully committed himself, in the great controversy, against his Maker.

All the powers of his master mind were now bent to the work of deception, to secure the sympathy of the angels that had been under his command. Even the fact that Christ had warned and counseled him was perverted to serve his traitorous designs. To those whose loving trust bound them most closely to him, Satan had represented that he was wrongly judged, that his position was not respected, and that his liberty was to be abridged. From misrepresentation of the words of Christ he passed to prevarication and direct falsehood, accusing the Son of God of a design to humiliate him before the inhabitants of heaven. He sought also to make a false issue between himself and the loyal angels. All whom he could not subvert and bring fully to his side he accused of indifference to the interests of heavenly beings. The very work which he himself was doing he charged upon those who remained true to God. And to sustain his charge of God's injustice toward him, he resorted to misrepresentation of the words and acts of the Creator. It was his policy to perplex the angels with subtle arguments concerning the purposes of God. Everything that was simple he shrouded in mystery, and by artful perversion cast doubt upon the plainest statements of Jehovah. His high position, in such close connection with the divine administration, gave greater force to his representations, and many were induced to unite with him in rebellion against Heaven's authority.

God in His wisdom permitted Satan to carry forward his work, until the spirit of disaffection ripened into active revolt. It was necessary for his plans to be fully developed, that their true nature and tendency might be seen by all. Lucifer, as the anointed cherub, had been highly exalted; he was greatly loved by the heavenly beings, and his influence over them was strong. God's government included not only the inhabitants of heaven, but of all the worlds that He had created; and Satan thought that if he could carry the angels of heaven with him in rebellion, he could carry also the other worlds. He had artfully presented his side of the question, employing sophistry and fraud to secure his objects. His power to deceive was very great, and by disguising himself in a cloak of falsehood he had gained an advantage. Even the loyal angels could not fully discern his character or see to what his work was leading.

Satan had been so highly honored, and all his acts were so clothed with mystery, that it was difficult to disclose to the angels the true nature of his work. Until fully developed, sin would not appear the evil thing it was. Heretofore it had had no place in the universe of God, and holy beings had no conception of its nature and malignity. They could not discern the terrible consequences that would result from setting aside the divine law. Satan had, at first, concealed his work under a specious profession of loyalty to God. He claimed to be seeking to promote the honor of God, the stability of His government, and the good of all the inhabitants of heaven. While instilling discontent into the minds of the angels under him, he had artfully made it appear that he was seeking to remove dissatisfaction. When he urged that changes be made in the order and laws of God's government, it was under the pretense that these were necessary in order to preserve harmony in heaven.

In His dealing with sin, God could employ only righteousness and truth. Satan could use what God could not-- flattery and deceit. He had sought to falsify the word of God and had misrepresented His plan of government before the angels, claiming that God was not just in laying laws and rules upon the inhabitants of heaven; that in requiring submission and obedience from His creatures, He was seeking merely the exaltation of Himself. Therefore it must be demonstrated before the inhabitants of heaven, as well as of all the worlds, that God's government was just, His law perfect. Satan had made it appear that he himself was seeking to promote the good of the universe. The true character of the usurper, and his real object, must be understood by all. He must have time to manifest himself by his wicked works.

The discord which his own course had caused in heaven, Satan charged upon the law and government of God. All evil he declared to be the result of the divine administration. He claimed that it was his own object to improve upon the statutes of Jehovah. Therefore it was necessary that he should demonstrate the nature of his claims, and show the working out of his proposed changes in the divine law. His own work must condemn him. Satan had claimed from the first that he was not in rebellion. The whole universe must see the deceiver unmasked.

Even when it was decided that he could no longer remain in heaven, Infinite Wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since the service of love can alone be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear rather than from love. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages Satan must more fully develop his principles, that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might forever be placed beyond all question.

Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages, a perpetual testimony to the nature and terrible results of sin. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside the divine authority. It would testify that with the existence of God's government and His law is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard to all holy intelligences, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of transgression, to save them from committing sin and suffering its punishments.

To the very close of the controversy in heaven the great usurper continued to justify himself. When it was announced that with all his sympathizers he must be expelled from the abodes of bliss, then the rebel leader boldly avowed his contempt for the Creator's law. He reiterated his claim that angels needed no control, but should be left to follow their own will, which would ever guide them right. He denounced the divine statutes as a restriction of their liberty and declared that it was his purpose to secure the abolition of law; that, freed from this restraint, the hosts of heaven might enter upon a more exalted, more glorious state of existence.

With one accord, Satan and his host threw the blame of their rebellion wholly upon Christ, declaring that if they had not been reproved, they would never have rebelled. Thus stubborn and defiant in their disloyalty, seeking vainly to overthrow the government of God, yet blasphemously claiming to be themselves the innocent victims of oppressive power, the archrebel and all his sympathizers were at last banished from heaven.

The same spirit that prompted rebellion in heaven still inspires rebellion on earth. Satan has continued with men the same policy which he pursued with the angels. His spirit now reigns in the children of disobedience. Like him they seek to break down the restraints of the law of God and promise men liberty through transgression of its precepts. Reproof of sin still arouses the spirit of hatred and resistance. When God's messages of warning are brought home to the conscience, Satan leads men to justify themselves and to seek the sympathy of others in their course of sin. Instead of correcting their errors, they excite indignation against the reprover, as if he were the sole cause of difficulty. From the days of righteous Abel to our own time such is the spirit which has been displayed toward those who dare to condemn sin.

By the same misrepresentation of the character of God as he had practiced in heaven, causing Him to be regarded as severe and tyrannical, Satan induced man to sin. And having succeeded thus far, he declared that God's unjust restrictions had led to man's fall, as they had led to his own rebellion.

But the Eternal One Himself proclaims His character: "The Lord God, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty." Exodus 34:6, 7.

In the banishment of Satan from heaven, God declared His justice and maintained the honor of His throne. But when man had sinned through yielding to the deceptions of this apostate spirit, God gave an evidence of His love by yielding up His only-begotten Son to die for the fallen race. In the atonement the character of God is revealed. The mighty argument of the cross demonstrates to the whole universe that the course of sin which Lucifer had chosen was in no wise chargeable upon the government of God.

In the contest between Christ and Satan, during the Saviour's earthly ministry, the character of the great deceiver was unmasked. Nothing could so effectually have uprooted Satan from the affections of the heavenly angels and the whole loyal universe as did his cruel warfare upon the world's Redeemer. The daring blasphemy of his demand that Christ should pay him homage, his presumptuous boldness in bearing Him to the mountain summit and the pinnacle of the temple, the malicious intent betrayed in urging Him to cast Himself down from the dizzy height, the unsleeping malice that hunted Him from place to place, inspiring the hearts of priests and people to reject His love, and at the last to cry, "Crucify Him! crucify Him!"--all this excited the amazement and indignation of the universe.

It was Satan that prompted the world's rejection of Christ. The prince of evil exerted all his power and cunning to destroy Jesus; for he saw that the Saviour's mercy and love, His compassion and pitying tenderness, were representing to the world the character of God. Satan contested every claim put forth by the Son of God and employed men as his agents to fill the Saviour's life with suffering and sorrow. The sophistry and falsehood by which he had sought to hinder the work of Jesus, the hatred manifested through the children of disobedience, his cruel accusations against Him whose life was one of unexampled goodness, all sprang from deep-seated revenge. The pent-up fires of envy and malice, hatred and revenge, burst forth on Calvary against the Son of God, while all heaven gazed upon the scene in silent horror.

When the great sacrifice had been consummated, Christ ascended on high, refusing the adoration of angels until He had presented the request: "I will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am." John 17:24. Then with inexpressible love and power came forth the answer from the Father's throne: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." Hebrews 1:6. Not a stain rested upon Jesus. His humiliation ended, His sacrifice completed, there was given unto Him a name that is above every name.

Now the guilt of Satan stood forth without excuse. He had revealed his true character as a liar and a murderer. It was seen that the very same spirit with which he ruled the children of men, who were under his power, he would have manifested had he been permitted to control the inhabitants of heaven. He had claimed that the transgression of God's law would bring liberty and exaltation; but it was seen to result in bondage and degradation.

Satan's lying charges against the divine character and government appeared in their true light. He had accused God of seeking merely the exaltation of Himself in requiring submission and obedience from His creatures, and had declared that, while the Creator exacted self-denial from all others, He Himself practiced no self-denial and made no sacrifice. Now it was seen that for the salvation of a fallen and sinful race, the Ruler of the universe had made the greatest sacrifice which love could make; for "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19. It was seen, also, that while Lucifer had opened the door for the entrance of sin by his desire for honor and supremacy, Christ had, in order to destroy sin, humbled Himself and become obedient unto death.

God had manifested His abhorrence of the principles of rebellion. All heaven saw His justice revealed, both in the condemnation of Satan and in the redemption of man. Lucifer had declared that if the law of God was changeless, and its penalty could not be remitted, every transgressor must be forever debarred from the Creator's favor. He had claimed that the sinful race were placed beyond redemption and were therefore his rightful prey. But the death of Christ was an argument in man's behalf that could not be overthrown. The penalty of the law fell upon Him who was equal with God, and man was free to accept the righteousness of Christ and by a life of penitence and humiliation to triumph, as the Son of God had triumphed, over the power of Satan. Thus God is just and yet the justifier of all who believe in Jesus.

But it was not merely to accomplish the redemption of man that Christ came to the earth to suffer and to die. He came to "magnify the law" and to "make it honorable." Not alone that the inhabitants of this world might regard the law as it should be regarded; but it was to demonstrate to all the worlds of the universe that God's law is unchangeable. Could its claims have been set aside, then the Son of God need not have yielded up His life to atone for its transgression. The death of Christ proves it immutable. And the sacrifice to which infinite love impelled the Father and the Son, that sinners might be redeemed, demonstrates to all the universe--what nothing less than this plan of atonement could have sufficed to do--that justice and mercy are the foundation of the law and government of God.

In the final execution of the judgment it will be seen that no cause for sin exists. When the Judge of all the earth shall demand of Satan, "Why hast thou rebelled against Me, and robbed Me of the subjects of My kingdom?" the originator of evil can render no excuse. Every mouth will be stopped, and all the hosts of rebellion will be speechless.

The cross of Calvary, while it declares the law immutable, proclaims to the universe that the wages of sin is death. In the Saviour's expiring cry, "It is finished," the death knell of Satan was rung. The great controversy which had been so long in progress was then decided, and the final eradication of evil was made certain. The Son of God passed through the portals of the tomb, that "through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil." Hebrews 2:14. Lucifer's desire for self-exaltation had led him to say: "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: . . . I will be like the Most High." God declares: "I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth, . . . and never shalt thou be any more." Isaiah 14:13, 14; Ezekiel 28:18, 19. When "the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven;. . . .all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1.

The whole universe will have become witnesses to the nature and results of sin. And its utter extermination, which in the beginning would have brought fear to angels and dishonor to God, will now vindicate His love and establish His honor before the universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. Never will evil again be manifest. Says the word of God: "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom.

[Woody]

One way to look at this issue of Satan repenting is that Repentence is not required before forgiveness. We are forgiven. Christ came not to condemn the world but to forgive.

And the forgiveness comes like the woman caught in adultry ... she never made a plea for forgiveness. She never repented.Yet Jesus said that her sins were forgiven.

Apparently the sins of Satan are so great that even though he repented ... it did not matter in regards to forgiveness.

Have we too closely tied this idea of Repentance and Forgiveness? I think it is important to realize that the forgiveness is there. It is a done deal. Christ's blood secured that. Out of love once we understand that the forgiveness is there ... we WILL repent.

[John317]

One way to look at this issue of Satan repenting is that Repentence is not required before forgiveness. We are forgiven. Christ came not to condemn the world but to forgive.

And the forgiveness comes like the woman caught in adultry ... she never made a plea for forgiveness. She never repented.Yet Jesus said that her sins were forgiven.

Apparently the sins of Satan are so great that even though he repented ... it did not matter in regards to forgiveness.

Have we too closely tied this idea of Repentance and Forgiveness? I think it is important to realize that the forgiveness is there. It is a done deal. Christ's blood secured that. Out of love once we understand that the forgiveness is there ... we WILL repent.

Did you see this:

"Again and again he was offered pardon on condition of repentance and submission. Such efforts as only infinite love and wisdom could devise were made to convince him of his error. The spirit of discontent had never before been known in heaven. Lucifer himself did not at first see whither he was drifting; he did not understand the real nature of his feelings. But as his dissatisfaction was proved to be without cause, Lucifer was convinced that he was in the wrong, that the divine claims were just, and that he ought to acknowledge them as such before all heaven. Had he done this, he might have saved himself and many angels. He had not at this time fully cast off his allegiance to God. Though he had forsaken his position as covering cherub, yet if he had been willing to return to God, acknowledging the Creator's wisdom, and satisfied to fill the place appointed him in God's great plan, he would have been reinstated in his office. But pride forbade him to submit. He persistently defended his own course, maintained that he had no need of repentance, and fully committed himself, in the great controversy, against his Maker.

All the powers of his master mind were now bent to the work of deception, to secure the sympathy of the angels that had been under his command. Even the fact that Christ had warned and counseled him was perverted to serve his traitorous designs." GC 496

God was quite ready and willing to forgive Lucifer on the condition of repentance and submission. Lucifer was willing to repent after a fashion but he was never willing to submit and forsake his sins. But then, even after Lucifer knew he was in the wrong and that he should repent and submit, it says that instead Lucifer "bent all his powers to the work of deception." Lucifer went on sinning and in time he had no way of truly repenting or changing. It wasn't God's forgiveness that he needed but real change, and he was incapable of that!!! He went beyond the point of no return. It wasn't that God couldn't or wouldn't forgive him; it was that forgiveness wouldn't change who Lucifer had made himself into: the Devil. Even God couldn't change that, without violating Lucifer's freedom to choose. God honors our choices, even if it means we will be eternally lost.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[John317]

One way to look at this issue of Satan repenting is that Repentence is not required before forgiveness. We are forgiven. Christ came not to condemn the world but to forgive.

And the forgiveness comes like the woman caught in adultry ... she never made a plea for forgiveness. She never repented.Yet Jesus said that her sins were forgiven.

God forgives all the world for sin, and this is shown through the death of Christ, but the only way that this forgiveness is received is by each person's acceptance of Christ's sacrifice and by placing one's faith in Him.

Jesus knew the heart of that woman caught in adultery. Read Ellen White comments on this in DA 460-642. She wasn't planning to go out and commit those same sins again. She was repentant. And Jesus told her to go and sin no more.

[Woody]

Quote:

"Jesus knew the heart of that woman caught in adultery." "She wasn't planning to go out and commit those same sins again."

I agree very much with this ... that God knows the heart and that is what He judges.

But Why did He tell her to go and sin no more if He knew she would not do that?

I would propose that she did not "desire" to go and do that. But that she would if tempted. We all make wrong choices that we would rather not. She did need to be reminded not to do that. But if she did ... Jesus would be there again saying the same thing.

[John317]

Quote:

"Jesus knew the heart of that woman caught in adultery." "She wasn't planning to go out and commit those same sins again."

I agree very much with this ... that God knows the heart and that is what He judges.

But Why did He tell her to go and sin no more if He knew she would not do that?

I would propose that she did not "desire" to go and do that. But that she would if tempted. We all make wrong choices that we would rather not. She did need to be reminded not to do that. But if she did ... Jesus would be there again saying the same thing.

Yes, Jesus is there to offer forgiveness many times over 70x70. Jesus never stops forgiving (even though in actuality the time will come when Jesus will stop being a mediator for sinners and come as Judge); but the problem is that, as with Lucifer, we can harden our hearts through the practice of sin until we no longer care whether we are forgiven or not. So the best thing to do is repent and ask for forgiveness and turn away from it while there is still time and while we're still under the conviction of the Spirit. The Bible says many will wait until it's too late.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

Quote:

So the best thing to do is repent and ask for forgiveness and turn away from it while there is still time and while we're still under the conviction of the Spirit.

I am sure you have the best of intentions ... but this rings of scare tactics to me personally.

There is plenty of time. If we are right now ... then God knows our hearts and that if given enough time ... we would both repent and turn TOWARDS the way of life that He would have us to do.

The actual change in life to be fit for Heaven ... comes at the second coming when we SEE His face. All the changes we make on this earth will just not be enough. God knows this. He wants our hearts. And that He can read.

[John317]

Quote:

So the best thing to do is repent and ask for forgiveness and turn away from it while there is still time and while we're still under the conviction of the Spirit.

I am sure you have the best of intentions ... but this rings of scare tactics to me personally.

There is plenty of time. If we are right now ... then God knows our hearts and that if given enough time ... we would both repent and turn TOWARDS the way of life that He would have us to do.

The actual change in life to be fit for Heaven ... comes at the second coming when we SEE His face. All the changes we make on this earth will just not be enough. God knows this. He wants our hearts. And that He can read.

Do you recall any of the times when Jesus used "scare tactics"? I can think of many things Jesus said that are like that. Also many things that God said in the Old Testament, and many in the New.

Is it "scare tactics" when the policeman tells us not to go through a red light? What if I said, "You know, what that cop said sounds like just scare tactics to me. I am going to go through the red light anyway. I refuse to be bothered by scare tactics"?

So go through the red light.

Jesus said to be always ready for Him to come because He could come at a time when you least expect it. The Bible warns of those who will be lost because they refused to listen to God's appeal to them through either Scripture or the Holy Spirit. The people who died in the flood thought there was plenty of time before they had to get inside the ark. Same with those in Sodom. They all died. The Bible says it will be the same for many living before Christ returns.

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

On the other hand, I do wonder if there are times when it is our responsibility to fight for what we believe to be right, for example in a case of child custody.

Yep. And I guess I really blew it. After the divorce was filed, we had the usual stipulations and interloc involving such things as visitation and finances. Everything went downhill after that. My ex cut off all contact. She told my that my children threw away the presents I sent them, and that they couldn't wait to turn 18 to get rid of my name. And much worse than that. I pleaded and pleaded for cooperation for the sake of the children, and wanted so much to see my children. No response. I prayed and prayed and prayed. People told me I should go to court. I responded that I did not want to force things, that I was waiting for God to work in the lives of my ex-wife and children. I prayed for three years. Finally, I went to court. The mediator asked me, 'Why did you wait so long?' The upshot of it was, she said that now the children were adjusted to life without dad. My ex's lawyer said to me that 'mom had decided there is to be no contact.' A flagrant violation of the most basic public policy. I thought, if only I had acted sooner. I went to see a counselor who used the term, 'parental alienation syndrome.' Evil was done, and prevailed, I guess.

Dave

Oh wow, I'm so, so sorry! I can only imagine how painful that must be. I would urge you to not give up hope, though. One thing my attorney told me is that kids will eventually see through the antics of the parents. I rather doubted it at the time, but I have found it to be true. Sometimes it takes a long time, but don't stop praying for them.

It's possible they don't even know you have sent things. Maybe you could set up a savings account for each of them and make deposits equal to their birthday and Christmas presents that you aren't able to give now, and then when they are older you can offer it to them with an explanation. It would get their attention and show that you never forgot about them or stopped loving them, and it might begin to mend the rift and start a dialogue.

[David Koot]

Thanks, Carolaa. Interesting sequel to the story. In June, my oldest son graduated. I decided I was going to see him. I figured his mom and her cronies might try to stop me, but I haven't forgotten how to rush and block, and I was going to get to my son. Well, I found him just before they were going to march in for commencement. He was so glad to see me. We hugged, he told me he loved me, and I said, let's not make it so long next time, and he agreed. Well, I was so excited. In the heat of my fury at what my ex had done to me, I filed a huge motion with the court, in which I told about seeing my son and how glad he was to see me. I was ready to destroy. Her lawyer wisely backed off. BUT . . . then I decided to go look for my son at college. I tried to call a bunch of times, but didn't leave a message. Finally went to look for him on campus. Found him working in food service. This time, he didn't want to see me. They went to call for him and came back saying he was busy. I happened to see him in the background, and waved. He came up to me and was very cold. It broke my heart. All I can figure is that he may have got in trouble with the 'boss' when she read my account of seeing him. So I am trying to regroup. Will try again. Why, why, why are some people so evil? But I have to believe he hasn't stopped loving me. Just something happened, whatever.

Dave

[carolaa]

Good for you for trying! Rejection from our kids can be so very painful. Maybe he's trying to keep the peace for the sake of the younger one(s).

[Woody]

To bad the message that is frightening those people is not Biblical. That is the key. We must preach the gospel. We must stand by the word of God.

No matter how long we live ... short or long ... we will have a fair opportunity to accept Christ. If it is short ... God knows how we would have responded it we had more time. He knows our heart. The time is not short for our Redemption. Our Redemption is assured. It is in the bank. And He knows if we want it and will accept it. He knows our name.

We can have that assurance now. Even if we don't know of it ... God knows if we would have accepted it if it had been presented correctly. God knows all.

Many have been presented the wrong message ... a message of fear. God though knows how we would respond if the correct message of love would have been presented.

So ... scare tactics? No they are not needed and should be discouraged. We should come to God out of love not fear for our lives. That kind of fear would serve no purpose for us.

I am reminded of what Graham Maxwell used to say ... " Obedience from FEAR springs the heart of a rebel."

[Gerr]

Quote:

"Jesus knew the heart of that woman caught in adultery." "She wasn't planning to go out and commit those same sins again."

I agree very much with this ... that God knows the heart and that is what He judges.

But Why did He tell her to go and sin no more if He knew she would not do that?

I would propose that she did not "desire" to go and do that. But that she would if tempted.

Do you think the devil would stop tempting? Are you saying every time the devil came to tempt her, she kept on committing adultery? That as a believer, every time I'm tempted to cheat on my income tax, I WILL go on to do it? If tempted to fornicate, I WILL go on to commit it?

Gerry