Moderators Gerr Posted January 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 19, 2008 Quote: I am reminded of what Graham Maxwell used to say ... " Obedience from FEAR springs the heart of a rebel." "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom." The Christian goes through the different stages of growth: 1. Fear --> 2. Faith --> 3. Love Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Do you think the devil would stop tempting? Are you saying every time the devil came to tempt her, she kept on committing adultery? Who said it is the devil who tempts? James 1:14 "Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire , he is dragged away and enticed...." The devil is the master manipulator. He arranges...he makes the way for temptation to confront you, but it is your own nature that tempts you to sin. Why? Because you have a nature bent to self. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom." 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Quote: That as a believer, every time I'm tempted to cheat on my income tax, I WILL go on to do it? If tempted to fornicate, I WILL go on to commit it? YES. You WILL. Just because you sin ... you don't stop being a Christian. Christ died for those sins so .. yes you are still a Christain when you are tempted and go out and fornicate. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Quote: That as a believer, every time I'm tempted to cheat on my income tax, I WILL go on to do it? If tempted to fornicate, I WILL go on to commit it? YES. You WILL. Just because you sin ... you don't stop being a Christian. Christ died for those sins so .. yes you are still a Christian when you are tempted and go out and fornicate. Sin is sin, but hopefully there is growth in the believer's life. Genuine growth brings glory to God. When we fail to live above the desires of the flesh we are a poor witness. However, self-righteousness is even worse. When someone sins (as in adultery) he or she is a poor witness, but when someone pretends to be something he isn't folks can see the hypocrisy. Therefore legalism and self-righteousness is more devastating to the cause of God then gross, open sin. EGW: “The drunkard is despised and is told that his sin will exclude him from heaven; while pride, selfishness, and covetousness too often go unrebuked. But these are sins that are especially offensive to God; [why?] for they are contrary to the benevolence of His character, to that unselfish love which is the very atmosphere of the unfallen universe. He who falls into some of the grosser sins [such as the drunkard] may feel a sense of his shame and poverty and his need of the grace of Christ; but pride [context: self-righteousness] feels no need, and so it closes the heart against Christ and the infinite blessings He came to give." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 19, 2008 Quote: That as a believer, every time I'm tempted to cheat on my income tax, I WILL go on to do it? If tempted to fornicate, I WILL go on to commit it? YES. You WILL. Just because you sin ... you don't stop being a Christian. Christ died for those sins so .. yes you are still a Christain when you are tempted and go out and fornicate. Most Baptists I know who believe in "once saved, always saved" will cringe at such prostitution of grace. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 19, 2008 Quote: Sin is sin, but hopefully there is growth in the believer's life. Hopefully? Jesus GUARANTEED it!!! "I am the vine; you are the branches. IF a man REMAINS in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." Jn 15:5,6 NIV Quote: However, self-righteousness is even worse. When someone sins (as in adultery) he or she is a poor witness, but when someone pretends to be something he isn't folks can see the hypocrisy. Therefore legalism and self-righteousness is more devastating to the cause of God then gross, open sin. Can you read hearts? You have laid a charge and judgment of self-righteousness against everyone in this forum who believes that those who believe in Jesus should live holy lives, even though no one has ever acknowledged being saved by their own efforts. Why is it you are against righteous living? Would you rather believers cheat, steal, fornicate, and do all kinds of abominable things? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Hopefully? Jesus GUARANTEED it!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 20, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 20, 2008 One way to look at this issue of Satan repenting is that Repentence is not required before forgiveness. We are forgiven. Christ came not to condemn the world but to forgive. I commend your ability to think outside the box. However, your idea just ain't Biblical, my friend. While Jesus did not come to condemn the world, you left out the rest of what He said, i.e. that it is "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Jn 3:18 NKJ Furthermore, if forgiveness is a fait accompli before repentance, then no one is lost. God does not force the will. Heaven would be hell for those who have no love or interest in spiritual things. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 20, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 20, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Do you think the devil would stop tempting? Are you saying every time the devil came to tempt her, she kept on committing adultery? Who said it is the devil who tempts? James 1:14 "Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire , he is dragged away and enticed...." The devil is the master manipulator. He arranges...he makes the way for temptation to confront you, but it is your own nature that tempts you to sin. Why? Because you have a nature bent to self. "Then Jesus.....being tempted for forty days by the devil." Lk 4:2 NKJ. "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field....Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die...' if you eat the fruit." Gen 3:1,4 NKJ Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 20, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 20, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom." 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. You left out the rest of what I said. Believers go through stages of growth, from a response motivated by fear --> faith --> love. Or look at Peter's ladder of Christian growth. The first rung is faith, then you take the next step virtue, then knowledge, then self-control, then perseverance, then goliness, then brotherly kindness, and at the very top is love. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 20, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 20, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Hopefully? Jesus GUARANTEED it!!! That we will be perfect? No! That we will produce fruit as we learn to walk in the Spirit? Yes. "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect [epiteleo] it until the day of Jesus Christ." Phil 1:6 NASB When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. [Hence always perfect - my comment] But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him, and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easygoing, accommodating, crossless religion. But Jesus says, 'If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.' 1SM 382 Quote: Quote: You have laid a charge and judgment of self-righteousness against everyone in this forum who believes that those who believe in Jesus should live holy lives No, not everyone...mainly you and a few others. You see the more you understand Christ's love the more humble will be your view of your own goodness. I don't hear humbleness from you. I hear a man like Job before God humbled him. Quote: Why is it you are against righteous living? Would you rather believers cheat, steal, fornicate, and do all kinds of abominable things? Yes, because God can reach those living by the flesh much easier than those deceived by the flesh and who are self-righteous. Rob "Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of His wonderful grace? Of course not! Since we have DIED to sin, how can we continue to LIVE in it?" Rom 6:1,2 NLT Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Who said it is the devil who tempts? James 1:14 "Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire , he is dragged away and enticed...." The devil is the master manipulator. He arranges...he makes the way for temptation to confront you, but it is your own nature that tempts you to sin. Why? Because you have a nature bent to self. [/quote'] "Then Jesus.....being tempted for forty days by the devil." Lk 4:2 NKJ. "Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field....Then the serpent said to the woman, 'You will not surely die...' if you eat the fruit." Gen 3:1,4 NKJ Gerry Like I said, "The devil is the master manipulator. He arranges...he makes the way for temptation to confront you, but it is your own nature that tempts you to sin." Think about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit." 1SM 382 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Quote: When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. How would you interpret this snippet? I would outline it as "Man's work plus Jesus's work = Salvation In other words ... You do all you can ... and He will make up the difference. I would propose a new thought ... The fact that Jesus "did and died" = Salvation All I have to "do" is to accept that gift. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 I would outline it as "Man's work plus Jesus' work" = Salvation. In other words ... You do all you can ... and He will make up the difference. Yes, that's how folks read it.... That's why I brought up the man of Romans 7. Again, let's read the last part: Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind [i.e., my will power] and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [Why?] 2 For the law of the Spirit [the power of the Spirit] in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin [the sin nature] and death [the 2nd death]. Okay, here's an immature Christian who has not yet learned to walk in the Spirit to experience the power of the Spirit. He is trying to say "no" to "the law of sin" [his sinful desires] using his will power [i.e., "the law of my mind"] and is experiencing defeat even though in his "inmost self" he loves and delights in God's law (God's agape love). Is there any condemnation for such a person? According to Paul the answer is "no". Therefore, for the man of Romans 7, Christ is making up for 100% of his deficiency with His own divine merit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 21, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo "When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit." 1SM 382 I'll buy into this statement as long as you allow two things: 1] The man of Romans 7 is accepted by Jesus as his best service. I used to believe as you do about Rom 7, but after studying it in more depth, my present understanding is this: 1. He is like the man Jesus describes who says, "Lord, Lord" but does not do His will, Mt 7:21. 2. He is like the man who hears the Word but builds on sand, Mt 7:26. 3. He is like the man who says, "I know Him, but does not keep His commandments." He "is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 Jn 2:4. 4. He is the man who "draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me." Mt 15:8. 5. He is like the man who talks about faith but does not show it with his works, Jam 2. 6. This man is, in the proverb quoted by Peter, like "a dog [who] returns to his own vomit," like "a sow, having washed, [returns] to her wallowing in the mire." 2 Pe 2:22. Quote: 2] Her statement is not taken to mean we are saved partially by Christ works and partially by ours. I believe her statement is refering to sanctification; the believer working out what God has worked in. The believer has already been justified/saved by accepting a righteousness not of his own making. Now he begins walking by faith. It is obeying/cooperating with "God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13. This is NOT the basis of his salvation; this is the RESULT of his being saved. Quote: Quote: Since we have DIED to sin, how can we continue to LIVE in it?" Rom 6:1,2 NLT The death we died was "in Christ". Yes, we are to consider ourselves dead to sin, but only "in Christ" have we died to sin once and for all. If we claim the death of Christ without the death of our "old man", how then can we claim His resurrection also? That would be a sham! See Rom 6. That is what baptism symbolizes - the old man dies and a new man is born! Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 21, 2008 See my response to Robert. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Quote: I believe her statement is refering to sanctification What confuses me Gerry is the use of the word "accepts". How much sanctification is required for salvation? Can we go to heaven with just a little bit of sanctification? OR do we need a lot? Do we take a little of OUR sanctification along with a lot of the sanctification that comes from Christ? Which sanctification is best ... the sum total of what we do ourselves or the amount that Christ makes up. Is that difference important? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted January 22, 2008 Moderators Share Posted January 22, 2008 Quote: I believe her statement is refering to sanctification What confuses me Gerry is the use of the word "accepts". How much sanctification is required for salvation? Can we go to heaven with just a little bit of sanctification? OR do we need a lot? Do we take a little of OUR sanctification along with a lot of the sanctification that comes from Christ? Which sanctification is best ... the sum total of what we do ourselves or the amount that Christ makes up. Is that difference important? "May the God of peace sanctify you entirely, and may your spirit, soul, and body be found blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thes 5:23 NRSV. "May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through....NIV "Now may God Himself, the God of peace, make you pure, belonging only to Him. May your whole self- spirit souls and body - be kept safe and without fault when our Lord Jesus comes." NCV "Holiness is wholeness for God; it is the entire surrender of the heart and life to the indwelling of the principles of heaven." DA 556 "Holiness is not rapture; it is an entire surrender of the will to God; it is living by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God; it is doing the will of our heavenly Father; it is trusting God in trial, in darkness as well as in light; it is walking by and not by sight; it is relying on God with unquestioning confidence and resting on His love." AA 51 There is no such thing as being a little bit pregnant or a little bit holy. You are either wholly/entirely/solely God's or you are not. That is why Jesus said you cannot serve 2 masters. He either takes first place in our lives or He does not. The newborn Christian can be accepted just as wholly/entirely/solely the Lord's just as well as a mature Christian as long as the whole heart is His. Notice that both justification AND sanctification are both gifts from God. And both are received by faith. See Rom 3:21,22, Ex 31:13; Ez 20:12. Both are "righteousness from God." NEVER ever can a believer say that the righteousness reckoned to him at justification is from God and that the righteousness he has by sanctification is his own making. NEVER!!! Let that be crystal clear, so that no one can ever say otherwise. Jesus flatly declared, "Without me you can do nothing!" And Paul also flatly declared that, "it is God who works in you both to WILL and TO DO for His good pleasure." Phil 2:13. And notice what Paul says in Thessalonians. This is not a work to be done by and by; it is a process that is going on before His coming. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 I used to believe as you do about Rom 7, but after studying it in more depth, my present understanding is this: 1. He is like the man Jesus describes who says, "Lord, Lord" but does not do His will, Mt 7:21. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Can we go to heaven with just a little bit of sanctification? OR do we need a lot? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 Yes, Redwood, you must stand "entirely" sanctified!!! You must be perfect - absolutely perfect. I agree totally with Gerry. Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, But a body Thou hast prepared for Me; 6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin Thou hast taken no pleasure. 7 “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come To do Thy will, O God.’”....10 By this will [i.e., by Christ's doing and dying] [color:#660000]we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 22, 2008 Share Posted January 22, 2008 1 Cor 1:30 But by His doing [God's] you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification , and redemption, 31 that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 23, 2008 Share Posted January 23, 2008 How much sanctification is required for salvation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.