Hypocrites In The Church

[Woody]

Quote:

"Faith in the healing power of God will not save unless it is combined with good works".-- {HL 238.3}

[Woody]

Quote:

"That which God required of Adam before his fall was perfect obedience to His law. God requires now what He required of Adam, perfect obedience, righteousness without a flaw, without shortcoming in His sight." 2SM 381

[Gerr]

My, my, how you guys twist words and quotes.

"The law requires righteousness, --a righteous life, a perfect character; AND THIS MAN HAS NOT TO GIVE. HE CANNOT MEET THE CLAIMS OF GOD'S HOLY LAW. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. MORE THAN THIS, CHRIST IMBUES MEN WITH THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD. HE builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. THUS THE VERY RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW IS FULFILLED IN THE BELIEVER IN CHRIST. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom 3:26.

Where is the basis for human boasting in any of these quotes? It is ALL God's work!

Gerry

[Robert]

Where is the basis for human boasting in any of these quotes? It is ALL God's work!

Gerry

It's not the quotes that I am worried about, it's setting yourself up as some standard to meet and coming down hard on those who you perceive as "practicing sin".

Case in point - sanctification: You quoted EGW where she states that Christ makes up for mankind's failures. I then brought up the man of Romans 7. And you state that he is not covered by Christ's righteousness even though Paul plainly states that there's no condemnation to those who have accepted Christ (see Romans 8:1)

Then to top it off you, through your quotes, demand that believers be entirely sanctified. So in reality you don't even believe that Christ makes up the difference. You expect perfection!

Well, the law expects perfection. Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. So when you walk as Christ walked (and there wasn't one bit of selfishness in Christ's life) then you can preach to us. Until then save the self-righteous stuff for someone who cares....

Rob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Where is the basis for human boasting in any of these quotes? It is ALL God's work!

Gerry

It's not the quotes that I am worried about, it's setting yourself up as some standard to meet and coming down hard on those who you perceive as "practicing sin".

Search the hundreds of posts that I have made over the years and you will NEVER, NEVER find ONE where I have set myself up as the standard for anyone to reach. However, I own up to the fact that I have persistently and insistently held up what Scripture teaches, i.e. that the born again sinner, in response to Jesus' command to, "sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." Jn 5:14, Jn 8:11. That when the born again sinner "continually abides in him," he "does not habitually sin" 1 Jn 3:6 Mon. "No one who maintains union with him lives in sin." TCNT. Or as the Amplified renders its, will not "willfully, deliberately" keep on sinning. For "the regular sinner has never seen nor known him." Phi.

And I have stated many times that while sin remains until Jesus comes, it DOES NOT REIGN!

Quote:

Case in point - sanctification: You quoted EGW where she states that Christ makes up for mankind's failures. I then brought up the man of Romans 7. And you state that he is not covered by Christ's righteousness even though Paul plainly states that there's no condemnation to those who have accepted Christ (see Romans 8:1)

The man of Rom 7 is still under condemnation for the following reasons:

1. Paul says that man is "carnal, sold under sin." 7:14

Paul in Rom 8:1 that those who are not under condemnation are those "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

In 8:6-8 he says, "For to be carnally minded is death.....because the carnal mind is enmity against God, ....and cannot please God."

2. In 8:9, Paul says that the sinner who has accepted the righteousness of God in his life is "not in the flesh but in the Spirit."

3. Believers cannot serve 2 masters, Mt 6:24. If anyone is a slave to sin, (which the man of Rom 7 is according to 7:14), he will die; he is not saved, Rom 6:15,16.

4. Born again sinners do not remain slaves to sin, they are "set free from sin," and become "slaves of righteousness". Rom 6:18,19

Quote:

Then to top it off you, through your quotes, demand that believers be entirely sanctified. So in reality you don't even believe that Christ makes up the difference. You expect perfection!

You are either saved or you are not! You are either sanctified or you are not!

Quote:

Well, the law expects perfection. Jesus is the fulfillment of the law.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

So when you walk as Christ walked (and there wasn't one bit of selfishness in Christ's life) then you can preach to us. Until then save the self-righteous stuff for someone who cares....

Rob

The self-righteous is your own strawman invention! I have never claimed any righteousness that meets the demands of the law except the "righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ," Rom 3:22.

Gerry

[Robert]

Search the hundreds of posts that I have made over the years and you will NEVER, NEVER find ONE where I have set myself up as the standard for anyone to reach.

[Robert]

In 8:6-8 he says, "For to be carnally minded is death.....because the carnal mind is enmity against God, ....and cannot please God."

Gerry, you doing it again. Look at Rom 7:25

"So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Paul plainly says that the man of Roman's 7 "mind" is a slave to God's law. This is not the carnally minded man that you quoted in Romans 8:6-8.

Please do not manipulate the Bible to make it state what it does not state!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Search the hundreds of posts that I have made over the years and you will NEVER, NEVER find ONE where I have set myself up as the standard for anyone to reach.

Then Gerry says,

Quote:

I have persistently and insistently held up...that the born again sinner, in response to Jesus' command to, "sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."

I rest my case; you are doing it again. You take a statement, like the one above, completely out of its context and then "persistently and insistently" demand that others do the same.

You are effectively setting yourself up as the standard because apparently you follow the command "go and sin no more"! You can't see that, can you?

Quote:

The man of Rom 7 is still under condemnation for the following reasons:

You can make up all the reason you desire, but the fact is Romans 8:1, taken in context, states that there is no condemnation to the one who has accepted Christ even though he or she maybe failing to live up to the spirit of the law.

Here's the context:

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, 23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death [this body headed towards the grave]? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [Why "no condemnation" to the man of Romans 7 who has accepted Christ, but is failing to live the good life?] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [where, in you? no,] in Christ Jesus has set me [my life] free from the law of sin [the sinful nature] and death [the 2nd death].

Quote:

Paul in Rom 8:1 that those who are not under condemnation are those "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

Paul never said any such thing. You are referring to KJV. Let's look at this:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

That last part, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit", was added. It is not in the original manuscripts. The most reliable manuscripts do not have that second part. I am convinced this is a scribal addition, not mainly because of the textual fact but because if Paul put that statement there in verse 1, he would be contradicting his own theology. Because he would be saying that we are justified because we are doing something, we are walking in the Spirit. He would be making sanctification the means of justification, which Paul condemned.

Yes, sanctification is the fruit of justification, never the means. That part, “walking in the spirit and not in the flesh,” does belong to verse 4 but not to verse 1. All that Paul says in verse 1 is that, “There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.” Why is there no condemnation for those who are in Christ? The answer is found in verse 2, because something took place in Christ. Romans 8:2:

...Because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Please notice it’s not through you, but through Christ. Now the words “set me free” are in the past historic tense, the Aorist. It’s something that has already happened in the past. I have and you have already been freed from the law of sin and death, but we have been freed in Christ.

Thanks Robert. That is beautiful . How clear. This is such an important aspect to understand and you have made it clear.

What wonderful news. The GOOD news. The Gospel in a nutshell.

[Robert]

"the carnal mind is enmity against God, ....and cannot please God."

Here's the rest of that quote:

"The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

Clearly this is not the case with the man of Romans 7:25

"So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

[Robert]

This is such an important aspect to understand and you have made it clear.

What wonderful news. The GOOD news. The Gospel in a nutshell.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Search the hundreds of posts that I have made over the years and you will NEVER, NEVER find ONE where I have set myself up as the standard for anyone to reach.

Then Gerry says,

Quote:

I have persistently and insistently held up...that the born again sinner, in response to Jesus' command to, "sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."

I rest my case; you are doing it again. You take a statement, like the one above, completely out of its context and then "persistently and insistently" demand that others do the same.

You are effectively setting yourself up as the standard because apparently you follow the command "go and sin no more"! You can't see that, can you?

Who is giving the command? Was it me or Christ? Or are you saying He did not really mean it? That the paralytic & the woman charged with adultery could resume their former lives after they have been healed and forgiven?

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Then Gerry says,

Quote:

I have persistently and insistently held up...that the born again sinner, in response to Jesus' command to, "sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you."

I rest my case; you are doing it again. You take a statement, like the one above, completely out of its context and then "persistently and insistently" demand that others do the same.

You are effectively setting yourself up as the standard because apparently you follow the command "go and sin no more"! You can't see that, can you?

Who is giving the command? Was it me or Christ? Or are you saying He did not really mean it? That the paralytic & the woman charged with adultery could resume their former lives after they have been healed and forgiven?

Gerry [/quote']

Here's what you said:

Originally Posted By: Gerry

I have persistently and insistently held up what Scripture teaches, i.e. that the born again sinner, in response to Jesus' command to, "sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." Jn 5:14, Jn 8:11.

"Sin no more" does not refer to the whole of the law, but rather "the sin" that got this man into trouble in the first place. But you make it sound that Christ is speaking of the whole law - all the dos and don'ts.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Here's the context:

Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self,

When did theoretical knowledge and intellectual assent to the law merit salvation? Look at the Pharisees and the doctors of the law, the scribes. Did they delight in the law? Yet what did Jesus say about them? Look at Mt 23, hint, "Woe...."

How does the man of Rom 7 differ from the 5 foolish virgins who had the lamp?

How does the man of Rom 7 differ from the elder of the two sons who were asked by their father to go and work in his vineyard? He knew & understood what his father wanted. He said he would do it but didn't.

How does the man of Rom 7 differ from the one who hears and understands what Jesus says, yet builds his house on sand?

Quote:

23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.

Jesus came to "proclaim liberty to the captives" Lk 4:18. He came to redeem [buy back] Satan's captives. If you are still a captive/prisoner of sin, then you have not yet been redeemed!

Quote:

24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death

If this man of Rom 7 is already saved, he would not need deliverance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

[this body headed towards the grave]?

You are adding your words to Scripture.

Quote:

[25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Yep, like I said, he needs deliverance.

Quote:

So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [Why "no condemnation" to the man of Romans 7 who has accepted Christ, but is failing to live the good life?] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [where, in you? no,] in Christ Jesus has set me [my life] free from the law of sin [the sinful nature] and death [the 2nd death].

The promise, Robert, is that true believers "are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." Paul says, "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh." Gal 5:16 NKJ

Gerry

[Robert]

When did theoretical knowledge and intellectual assent to the law merit salvation? Look at the Pharisees and the doctors of the law, the scribes. Did they delight in the law? Yet what did Jesus say about them? Look at Mt 23, hint, "Woe...."

[Robert]

Quote:

Paul says, "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall NOT fulfill the lust of the flesh." Gal 5:16

Yes, but the man of Romans 7 is failing there. So are you. If he is unsaved so are you!

Look at the context of Romans 7:7-13. I've been over this before. Find it; read it again.

In short Paul is speaking of his conversion. Before he was converted he viewed his law keeping as blameless (see Phil 3:6), but when the spirituality of the law came into focus (see Romans 7:7-13) Paul saw himself a sinner.

Ellen White fully agrees:

Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"—as far as outward acts were concerned –he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt.

He [Paul] says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem [pride] was gone.

Okay that’s the context of Romans 7:7-13. Now in Romans 7:14-25 Paul is addressing not himself, but the believer who has the law written in his heart (mind) (see Romans 7:22). But there's a problem. The man of Romans 7 is using his "will power" to defeat the desires of his nature. How do I know this? Go to Romans 7:25.

"So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind (heart), but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

The phrase "I of myself" means without the Holy Spirit. You see the converted person's mind (heart) is in harmony with God's love, but the problem is that the sinful nature opposes the mind. Which is stronger: The will power or human nature? Well, Romans 7:14-25 makes it very clear that our human nature is stronger than the converted will power.

So the man of Romans 7 hasn't learned to let the Spirit handle his human nature. According to Gal 5:16,17 the Spirit is stronger than our human nature. This he hasn't learned.

But again, remember that Paul has the spirit of the law in mind. What does that mean? I'll give you an example.

Go to Matt 5:21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 “But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court."

So while I might not murder someone (which answers the letter of the law) if I am angry with someone (which breaks the spirit of the law) I am guilty of murder. The same idea can be found with adultery.

You see the converted man of Romans 7 isn't having problems with murder, adultery and stealing from the letter of the law perspective. His problem is with respect to the spirit of the law because it examines the thoughts.

So outwardly he can refrain from murder, but inwardly (without the Spirit) he cannot control his thought as tied to the sin nature. The man of Romans 7 is not having some beers at the local strip club...he's not breaking into someone's home, rather he is failing to reflect the spirit of the law in his life because he hasn't learned that without the Spirit's power genuine agape love (an ingredient humans are completely void of) is an impossibility!

The question is does this mean he is lost? Romans 8:1 answers this question and the answer is "there is no condemnation" to those who have received Christ even though in their experience they haven't learned to walk in the Spirit.

Robert

[Gerr]

Here I am looking at Rom 7 again. And here are the things it says about the man of Rom 7:

Man of Rom 7 vs True Believers

1. He is CARNAL, &14. vs "not in the flesh but in the Spirit, 8:9

2. Sold under sin, 7:14. vs "Redeemed ..with the precious blood of Christ." 1 Pe 1:18,19

3. Indwelt by sin, 7:17,20 vs Indwelt by the Spirit, 8:9

4.Has no power to perform to perform what is good, 7:18 vs Can do all things through Christ who strengthens him, Phil 4:13.

5. Sin is his master, he does what sin tells him to do, 7:19-22 vs Set free from sin, 6:18; becomes slave of God, 6:22, hence slave of righteousness, 6:19.

6. Captive to the law of sin, 7:23 vs Not under dominion of

sin, 6:14

7. His body the instrument of sin, 7:15-23 vs His body parts become the instruments of righteousness, 6:13.

8. Carnal, 7:14, hence subject to death, 8:6,13 vs Spiritually minded -->life & peace, 8:6

9. Carnal, therefore sets his mind & life on the things of the flesh, 8:5 vs Lives according to the Spirit, 8:5, Died to sin & no longer lives in it,6:2

10.Delights inwardly in the law but remains a captive to the law of sin, 7:22,23 vs Walks in newness of life, 6:4

11."Wretched man" 7:24 vs "Blessed.." see Mt 5, Ps 1;119

12.Still needs deliverance, therefore not yet saved, 7:24 vs Already delivered & saved, 6:7

12.Intellectually serves the law of God but in practise serves the law of sin, 7:25 vs Slave of God & righteousness,

obeys from the heart, 6:22,19, and bears fruit to holiness,

6:22

Gerry

[Robert]

If this is how you wish to twist this Gerry that's your mistaken theology, but the fact is found in Romans 8:1. What does it say?

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

It doesn't matter if the man of Romans 7 is failing for he is accepted "in Christ"! Why?

verse 2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me [context: the man of Romans 7] free from the law of sin and death."

Note that "in Christ" the power of the Spirit defeated "the law of sin" and therefore the man of Romans 7 has been legally freed from

1] The law of sin

and

2] death

This is only true of the man of Romans 7 "in Christ". Only "in Him" has the man of Romans 7 been "set free" from "indwelling sin" (the sin nature) and the 2nd death.

Robert

[Robert]

Let's see if EGW has a man like the man of Romans 7 saved:

"The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete [imperfect], his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager [i.e., his good deeds], and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, "Ye are complete in Him." Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God. [FW 107]

Gerry, you are wrong! You are placing believers "under law". You are making yourself a standard for Christian perfection. In a nutshell you are attempting to place believers under a yoke of bondage! Your theology must be rejected....

Robert