Importance of Adventist Education

[Dr. Shane]

I am not one that believes it is so important to attend an Adventist university to learn math, medicine, business or even sciences like chemistry, geology, biology or physics. A good grounding in Adventist schools at the elementary and secondary level should be enough to keep a young man or woman from being corrupted in a secular university.

That said, I do believe it is very important for our youth to attend Adventist elementary and secondary school. I believe the church needs to continue to emphasize this while looking for ways to help students and parents afford it.

In public schools secular humanism infiltrates almost every academic discipline. Everyone knows that humanism is found in the sciences. Every branch of science embraces and teaches humanistic evolution. Yet it is not limited to the natural sciences. Humanism is taught in the social sciences, psychology, philosophy, history as well as humanities like literature, linguistics, ethics, law and the fine arts including music, art and dance.

In contrast to this, in Adventist schools the Biblical world view penetrates all the same academic disciplines in much the same way that humanism does in public school. Bible lessons are taught in science, social science, humanities and the fine arts.

With such a contrast, it really is a tragedy that there are Adventist families among us that cannot afford to send their children to our schools. It is also tragic that some parents choose to have an expensive house or a new car instead of placing their children in Adventist schools. Both are "Real Issues in Adventism Today." Some people really cannot afford to send their children and other parents don't place enough importance on it.

[Guest charis]

:( Whatever happened to the "Worthy Student" fund that churches used to have? My family was dirt poor when it came time for 1st grade (for me) and 2nd grade (for brother). We were sponsored by the Worthy Student fund for maybe 4 or 5 years.

My mom said it was an awful experience to apply for that. She had to go in front of the School Board, show what her and my dad's financial status was, why she thought *her* kids should have that privilege. Then she had to go outside the room and stand in the hall for about 10 minutes, while the School Board discussed whether or not ny brother and I were *worthy*...... my dad was not SDA at the time - if he had known what my mom had to go through, there would have been fireworks. And that's a fact.

[Dr. Shane]

Our church has a worthy student fund. I believe many do. That is why I didn't say our church needs to help the poor but rather we need to continue to help and look for ways we can help even more.

I do favor a criteria however I don't think one should ever have to appear in front of a board or committee. One should simply have to submit proof of income and at least one of the parents should be a member of an Adventist church. We shouldn't help the children of parents that could afford it with a lifestyle change and in so doing not help the poorer children whose parents simply cannot afford it at all.

[carolaa]

Shane, I agree it is sad when parents really want to put their kids in church school but can't afford it. Even sadder is when parents put their kids in church school with high hopes, only to be sorely disappointed (rightly so) and put them back in public school. I do think it is important for college kids to attend an SDA college if possible. Why would we send them into the secular world right at the time they are looking for a mate?

[Woody]

I don't intend to be negative ... but to simply point out some difficulties.

I was on our church school and church board at the same time. We struggled with this issue. We had a rule that IF a student received assistance from the Worthy Student Fund ... that they also be willing to contribute to the school in a postive way. This was defined as working a job like sweeping the floors or whatever was needed.

I FRIMLY believe in this. But, we had families complaining that it was slave labor. Some would refuse to allow their kids to do any kind of work. This was for those academy aged. They should be working.

I worked my way all through academy and college. My parent never paid a dime. In college I did have grants and loans but I worked off most of it.

I realize that this may not be possible for all. But I value work for our students. At Monterey Bay Academy I worked in an out-door furniture factory and I found it character building.

[carolaa]

I agree with you. In my experience, it is usually the parents who take on the work, and maybe that does have to do with child labor laws. Another problem you need to be careful with is IRS regulations about trading labor for tuition. You can't do that. You have to pay the person for the labor, and then they can turn around and give it back as tuition.

As far as Worthy Student Funds, I have always seen it given with the stipulation that the parents agree to pay *something* each month. Yes, I absolutely agree that the families need to make a contribution of some kind.

[Woody]

Quote:

Another problem you need to be careful with is IRS regulations about trading labor for tuition. You can't do that. You have to pay the person for the labor, and then they can turn around and give it back as tuition.

In our case. We determined what assistance the family needed and reduced it by the amount we felt that the student needed to pay towards the tuition. The IRS had nothing to do with it and our students were paid but the pay was expected to be applied to the tuition when calculating the assistance. What happened though was the students and families spent it on whatever they wanted and left a tuition debt.

So, I just give up.

[carolaa]

Yes, that is another one of my peeves with our education system. We allow debts to go on way too long. I've seen many situations where families get away with paying the first couple months, and nothing after that. School boards are not doing those families a service by allowing them to go into such debt, never mind the schools that desperately need the money. But somehow we think it is not "Christian" to make them pay their bills. Hmmm, maybe we need more manly men on our school boards.....

[Woody]

Carolaa ... I tried being a mean manly man .... but it didn't work out well.

Like you say ... some feel it is not "Christian" to encourage people to pay their bills.

[Liz]

I have mixed emotions about this. On the one hand I think Adventist schools are the way to go, on the other I don't think one should go into debt, especially over the K-12 grades. I don't think being in debt is being a good steward of money.

When I was growing up, my family looked into sending me away to academy; this would have been to a different state as there aren't any in my area. I was selected for the worthy student fund, I was also going to work in the kitchens to help with tuition. It was getting down to the wire for me to go, when the church suddenly decided that someone else was more worthy than me and took my funding away. They said I could still go, but that we needed to come up with all of the tuition on our own. Without that little bit of help, it was impossible to go. So I went to the local public highschool. Who was the student more worthy? The pastor's kid.

Then when my children were very little and we were deciding about schools; our home church had a school K-8. My husband and I were doing some work at the school and we were watching to see how the classroom was run. The teacher handed out workbooks and told them to fill out a certain page, and the teacher stared out the window. This went on all day--fill out a certain page and teacher stared out the window. By the end of the second day, we had decided to homeschool.

A few years after this the school closed.

My point is this, you have to be diligent about your childs' education no matter what form it takes. Just because it has an Adventist label doesn't mean it is going to be superior in any way. And going into debt over a K-12 grade education isn't being good stewards of your money when there are other options out there to give your child a good quality education and get them ready for college.

[carolaa]

I have mixed emotions about this. On the one hand I think Adventist schools are the way to go, on the other I don't think one should go into debt, especially over the K-12 grades. I don't think being in debt is being a good steward of money.

you have to be diligent about your childs' education no matter what form it takes. Just because it has an Adventist label doesn't mean it is going to be superior in any way. And going into debt over a K-12 grade education isn't being good stewards of your money when there are other options out there to give your child a good quality education and get them ready for college.

You are absolutely right about this! I know people who say the worst Adventist school is better than the best public school. Nope, just ain't so. I wish all Adventist schools were stellar, or even adequate, but you really have to stay on top of what your kids are doing and learning, no matter what kind of school they go to.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Even sadder is when parents put their kids in church school with high hopes, only to be sorely disappointed (rightly so) and put them back in public school.

I cannot disagree more. Some Adventist schools are poor schools. Some public schools are poor schools. Some Lutheran schools are poor schools. Some Catholic schools are poor schools. No matter where one sends their children, they need to do their homework. Test scores are available for all schools and parents can ask for them and see how the school compares with others in the state and others in the area. If the school doesn't want to provide them, one can get them simply by going to the superintendent's office of the local public school district. If the local Adventist school is a poor school, it is much better to send the children to a Baptist, Lutheran or other Christian school rather than a public school. Public schools are saturated with humanist philosophy.

I agree that Adventist colleges are good for those that can afford it. Adventist schools really are not any more expensive than other private Christian colleges. I don't have any issues with what Adventist colleges are charging. I do believe however, that our colleges should have industry on or near campus that allows students to earn enough money to pay for their tuition.

I am not sold on the boarding schools. I know these are very common in Adventism. I would rather have my teenagers live at home and attend a Christian, non-Adventist high school than send them off to a boarding school. In my circumstance, we attend an academy church so that is not an issue.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Why would we send them into the secular world right at the time they are looking for a mate?

I wasn't aware that our colleges were dating agencies. I guess I was probably just a little ignorant about that. There are a lot of Adventists where I live and many of them attend the local state colleges. Of course, there are about two dozen Adventist churches within a 30 mile radius of my home.

Nonetheless, I would encourage my children to use an Adventist dating service. Long distance dating certainly has some disadvantages. I think when things get serious, they should move close to each other for nine months to a year before getting married. But I don't think it is accurate to believe a child needs to go to an Adventist college in order to find an Adventist spouse.

[carolaa]

Quote:

Even sadder is when parents put their kids in church school with high hopes, only to be sorely disappointed (rightly so) and put them back in public school.

I cannot disagree more.

I can't figure out what you disagreed with. Don't you think it is sad when people WANT to put their child in an Adventist school and it turns out to be a disaster so they have to look somewhere else? Sure, there are bound to be a few lemons out there, but it is still very disappointing.

Don't get me started on test scores; they mean *extremely* little except as a marketing tool. Many private schools will not admit students who struggle with learning because it will lower their test scores and hurt business. In no way do high test scores indicate superior teaching or a better school. Particularly here in Texas, the public schools spend a lot of time "teaching to the test" to keep their scores high so they can keep getting those government dollars. I live in one of these *excellent* award-winning school districts, and I can tell you that more and more people are deciding to home school because of this.

[carolaa]

Quote:

Why would we send them into the secular world right at the time they are looking for a mate?

I wasn't aware that our colleges were dating agencies. I guess I was probably just a little ignorant about that. There are a lot of Adventists where I live and many of them attend the local state colleges. Of course, there are about two dozen Adventist churches within a 30 mile radius of my home.

Nonetheless, I would encourage my children to use an Adventist dating service. Long distance dating certainly has some disadvantages. I think when things get serious, they should move close to each other for nine months to a year before getting married. But I don't think it is accurate to believe a child needs to go to an Adventist college in order to find an Adventist spouse.

Of course, Adventist colleges are not dating services. But obviously you are going to marry someone you know, so I find it strange to think that is the time to ship them off to the secular world. I know there are no guarantees either way, but why not give them the advantage if one can? Everywhere I have lived, there are very few Adventist kids going public colleges, and those that do wish there were other Adventist kids to hang out with and go to church with.

Plus, most kids I know who have gone through church school are pretty sheltered and emotionally ill prepared at age 17-18 for life at any college, let alone a secular college. At least at an Adventist college, the staff is usually more caring and the atmosphere is healthier.

[Dr. Shane]

I disagree that a public school becomes a good option because the local Adventist school is a poor one. Public schools should be on the bottom of the list. Most communities have Baptist, Lutheran, nondenominational and Catholic schools that should be ranked higher than public schools.

I build more schools than anything else. As I result I attend many school board meetings. Sometimes two or three in a month. I get to know the leaders in the school. And as much as people cry about it, test scores tell a lot and teaching to the test is a good thing. It is not perfect but in this imperfect world, it is the best we have. If a school has good test scores I can guarantee more is going on in the classroom than the teacher handing out workbooks and looking out the window.

[carolaa]

I disagree that a public school becomes a good option because the local Adventist school is a poor one. Public schools should be on the bottom of the list. Most communities have Baptist, Lutheran, nondenominational and Catholic schools that should be ranked higher than public schools.

I build more schools than anything else. As I result I attend many school board meetings. Sometimes two or three in a month. I get to know the leaders in the school. And as much as people cry about it, test scores tell a lot and teaching to the test is a good thing. It is not perfect but in this imperfect world, it is the best we have. If a school has good test scores I can guarantee more is going on in the classroom than the teacher handing out workbooks and looking out the window.

OK, then you don't disagree with me, because I never said public schools were a good option. I said the opposite, that it is very sad when parents had high hopes for the Adventist school and are sorely disappointed and then put them in public school.

I have served on a school board, as well. My family members have served on school boards, both elementary and secondary. I have spent many years getting to know many teachers, professors, and superintendents across the country, and I can promise you that most of them will agree that test scores mean very little and that teaching to the test is a very poor way to teach.

[Robert]

...some feel it is not "Christian" to encourage people to pay their bills.

Luke 6:34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

[Woody]

I don't know about you Robert ...

Snippets Snippets Snippets.

Is that ALL He/She said on the topic?

[Dr. Shane]

Japan, India and China are ahead of the US in education. That is why we have to teach to the test. It works. All we have to do is put on the test whatever we want the kids to learn. The teachers than teach to the test and the kids learn what they need to. There isn't some great conspiracy scandal by politicians and educational leaders. Testing works and that is why we use it. When people tell me that testing doesn't work it tells me they either have an agenda or have been listening to someone with an agenda.

[Liz]

I respectfully disagree with you, Shane. I don't have an agenda nor do I listen to those that do. You said:

All we have to do is put on the test whatever we want the kids to learn. The teachers than teach to the test and the kids learn what they need to.

Doing it this way then, the children don't learn anything that isn't "on the test". Ask them who Columbus was, and they will tell you "He discovered America", because that was on the test. Ask them what he really discovered, or even what he was looking for and they won't know, because "that isn't on the test".

We as parents need to be diligent in their education, give them the joy of learning for learning's sake. To dig deep below the surface and learn as much as possible about important events, even if "the truth" isn't what the majority of the world "remembers" about an event. History is being re-written, to gloss over certain events to make them less horrific. Teaching to the test allows this to happen very easily. Another area is English comprehension and reading, teaching to the test, churns out student after student very weak in these areas, because teaching to the test doesn't allow them to think and apply the rules of language.

Japan, India, and China are ahead, because the family places such an importance on education.

[Dr. Shane]

Learning for learning's sake is another cliche. Show me a successful educational system that doesn't uses tests to measure students learning and determine grade advancement. Testing is necessary. There is no way around that.

Getting back to the topic. The test scores for Adventist schools are available. If someone says good test scores don't mean good school, I would be highly suspect of anything else they have to say. Schools can have crime issues and and have good test scores. Christian schools can also be overly legalistic and have good test scores. If this is what they mean by good test scores don't mean a good school - then I would agree. But good test scores do show that teachers are doing their job and kids are learning. Teachers that look out the window all day don't have students getting good test scores.

[Liz]

Learning for learning's sake is another cliche. Show me a successful educational system that doesn't uses tests to measure students learning and determine grade advancement. Testing is necessary. There is no way around that.

This is not a cliche, it is how I teach my children. Homeschool done right, is a successful educational system that doesn't use tests to measure students learning and grade advancement. Testing is not necessary, it just scores what you memorized not how much or how little you know.

As for using the test scores for determining the better school, let me say this. In my highschool, starting in the 10th grade we started taking "exit" exams. These were the "tests" that went on the internet that "everyone" would see, and thereby "grade" our school. If you didn't pass you had until your senior year to do so. So that by the time we were seniors all of us that graduated did in fact pass our exit exams by 100%. I passed my exit exams the first time I took them in 10th grade, I had fellow classmates that took them every time they were offered and finally passed by graduation; after having taken them SIX times. The school did this so that every time someone looked at our schools' test scores they were very high. While my highschool was a good school, this really wasn't representative by the test scores. I would be very leery about judging a school by its test scores.

[carolaa]

Learning for learning's sake is another cliche. Show me a successful educational system that doesn't uses tests to measure students learning and determine grade advancement. Testing is necessary. There is no way around that.

Getting back to the topic. The test scores for Adventist schools are available. If someone says good test scores don't mean good school, I would be highly suspect of anything else they have to say. Schools can have crime issues and and have good test scores. Christian schools can also be overly legalistic and have good test scores. If this is what they mean by good test scores don't mean a good school - then I would agree. But good test scores do show that teachers are doing their job and kids are learning. Teachers that look out the window all day don't have students getting good test scores.

Here is a link to an article I saw today on this very subject.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080121/ap_on_re_us/nyc_schools_grading

Personally, I don't know anyone who would say that tests are bad. Not necessary, maybe, but not bad. I believe placement tests can be very helpful, and other tests can be a good measurement of what students have learned. But "teaching to the test" is poor teaching, as almost any educator would agree. Sure, kids are learning -- they are learning to be great memorizers -- but that is not education, that is not learning to THINK. The main ones who push for standardized testing are NOT educators, they are politicians and marketers.

I am talking primarily about standardized testing. And I am not against standardized testing to some degree, but I am against "teaching to the test." Here in Texas, the public schools spend the entire 3rd quarter doing test prep. Most of the teachers don't like it and would rather teach the kids to think, but if their kids don't do well on the tests, they could lose their jobs.

Other countries may rank higher than us, but that doesn't mean they are better educated. It means they do better at what is on the test. We may be better educated at other things, but we have this insatiable desire to be #1. I know that in some of those countries kids spent 8 or more hours a day in school and are under extreme pressure to do well. That is not healthy, yet we feel the need to follow their example so we can be #1. Oh dear, the Russians are ahead of us in the space war - it must mean we need to teach more science. So we teach more science and become #1 in the space war, but then we drop to #2 in something else, and so the juggling continues. It's all about politics. Like Bill Cosby says, what's wrong with being #2?

A school that accepts only above average students will tend to have high test scores, but does that make it a good school? I submit that those students will do well no matter if the teaching is good or poor.

A school with high parental involvement will tend to have high test scores, so does that make it a good school? I would say probably yes, even if the teachers are mediocre.

A public school that has to accept all students in the district may be a very excellent school but have low test scores -- not because learning isn't going on, but because they have more students who are average or below, or whose parents are not involved.

So, anyone who thinks that high test scores is the sign of a good school is simply not educated in the subject, because it is absolutely not necessarily true. I would humbly suggest that you talk to some educators -- at a time when they are not trying to market their school or school system -- and get more educated on the subject.

[Dr. Shane]

The school did this so that every time someone looked at our schools' test scores they were very high.