A Redwood Snippet on Manhood

[Neil D]

um, if you note, i changed it to something better....and there was no reflection on you, at least, none intended...

[Woody]

Ah Shucks.

Now ... I can't whine and complain.

Is there something else you have that I can be offended about?

[Guest Male Man]

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this is a new expression to me -- a made-up one, I would say!

Thats it Beryl, keep the wisdom coming.

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and beware the wussinazis

There may be such a beast - will have to think about it.

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Labrador gave specific suggestion about how to change the sermons and activities. Again ... this is what MM was promoting but this particular author was giving constructive ideas rather than sweeping condemnation and name calling of those men who are not manly enough.

Some church leaders and writers have gotten the tail end of the mens movement and are beginning to do some work in this area. However, some are confused on what it is and deliver a skewed message about it. Some have taken it and then dropped it because it is a hot potatoe. Some, as in this article, have taken it on board and offered suggestions but have not gone far enough. He is writing for a church publication remember and so it is only natural that it will be dumbed down to suit the feminazi's. Radical preaching is not dealt with and is a major cause of the decline in our youth and men in the church.

All your poo hooing of what I was telling you only shows the typical resistance the idea gets.

[Woody]

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Radical preaching ... is a major cause of the decline in our youth and men in the church.

I would agree that Radical Preaching has damaged our church. People don't want to come to a place where they are condemned and told they have to be perfect. Now that is far to radical.

[Beryl]

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Radical preaching is not dealt with and is a major cause of the decline in our youth and men in the church.

You have used the term "radical preaching" so often, but have not outlined what you have meant. Remember, our Lord spoke to the multitudes in simple terms that they would understand. The only examples of "radical preaching" by Jesus that I see are the times he was speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees, and even then, it was only His last time with them before His crucifixion that He went so far as to liken them to "whitened sepulchres . In dealing with "the common people" He used terms that they would understand, and spoke with love and kindness. He spoke to the hearts of His listeners. That is what we need, if that is what you call radical -- touching their hearts, not their fears.

Beryl

[Neil D]

Ah Shucks.

Now ... I can't whine and complain.

Is there something else you have that I can be offended about?

What?!?!? No comment on the Ozzie Woozies?

[Guest Male Man]

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I would agree that Radical Preaching has damaged our church. People don't want to come to a place where they are condemned and told they have to be perfect. Now that is far to radical.

Your funny Red. Let me tell you that you need to do your own survey. Walk into five churches over a five week period and ask yourself - "was the sermon I heard today a condemning one or was it the usual slops of -'let's all be nice'- kinda thing.

Bring on the fire and brimstone sermons I reckon, anything but the weak faltering unclear sermons we get served up every sabbath.

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The only examples of "radical preaching" by Jesus that I see are the times he was speaking to the Pharisees and Sadducees

Well Beryl, you need to re-read the gospels then. Everything Jesus said polarised people in one way or another. Even his sweet stuff was not heard before and the old stuck in their ways church people ridiculed him because he was different. They had no answers for him but condemnation because he challenged them to their very core and layed bare the motives behind why many attend and play church games.

[Nightingale]

This is confusing.....Seems to me that almost everything Jesus taught was radical in His day. Most of the Bible teachings are radical today. Read the Beatitudes, the story of the Good Samaritan, the teachings of Daniel and Revelation. I beleive the main reason so many teens and young people are leaving the church today is because they see so little of these "radical teachings" being lived out today. There are many young people on the front lines of mission in this country and going overseas who are excited about these radical teachings. Unfortunately they sometimes see too little acted out in the lives of most of the church members. Young people are looking for something that they can beleive in so strongly they will be willing to die for it. Thats radical.

[Guest Male Man]

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I beleive the main reason so many teens and young people are leaving the church today is because they see so little of these "radical teachings" being lived out today

Amen and hallelujah!

You might be wasting your breath here though because they dont want to listen to this stuff. True male men and young people have many similarities. They don't care much for reputation if the cause is right and good. Unfortunately we have become a church that loves comfort and safety and we think we are all saved already - sounds familiar - Rev 3 maybe?

The church in my country is performing dismally and so only the positive is emphasised. You cannot even mention there are problems without being seen as part of the CB crowd or somethin. Therte are those of us who pay tithe and support the church 100% in it's teachings and mission but we violently disagree with how the church will not allow risk and radicl preaching to enter its gates. Nice and steady is the word or else we may tip over - tip the damn thing over I reckon and whoever climbs back in may just be worth their salt.

[carolaa]

I agree with you. I guess that makes me a feMALE woMAN. Actually, I know plenty of women who would agree with you if you would stop making it a MAN thing.

[Guest Male Man]

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I know plenty of women who would agree with you if you would stop making it a MAN thing.

You would be the exception though as evidenced on this site.

The funny thing is in the US where the male specific churches have started up, they are finding the women are coming along in droves too.

If only some of the women here could see how important it is and not thinking every man is a brute. Pitty their husbands.

[olger]

CB =

Carl Bowman?

Clint Black?

Culled Bulls?

Complaining Brethren?

Colorado Baptists?

[carolaa]

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I know plenty of women who would agree with you if you would stop making it a MAN thing.

You would be the exception though as evidenced on this site.

I don't think you can truly say that about this site, because you have wasted no opportunity to make it a sexist topic. If you would just be more creative about your words and never, never, never again compare it to one gender or the other, I think you might be surprised. Your sexist comments are inflammatory and totally unnecessary, and I don't believe they are even very accurate. I think you could say what you want to say and find that a lot of people agree with you. I could be wrong, but that's what I think.

[Guest Male Man]

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CB =

Concerned Bretheren or Independent Ministries. In Oz we are alot harder on these guys than you are in the US I notice. We vote them down and veto them out here - it's no wonder there is a constant war over it in our country. I don't agree with their tithe taking and stuff but they have been slapped down so hard by the church that they have now adopted a persecution complex and they are ten times worse. Some of the stuff they say is correct but they always throw in that the church is Babylon.

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you have wasted no opportunity to make it a sexist topic.

How am I doing that? As I said before, it is a culture and not specific to women. In fact i said that converted men are usually worse to deal with.

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If you would just be more creative about your words and never, never, never again compare it to one gender or the other, I think you might be surprised.

Thankyou for supplying yet again another classic example of the wussy culture. "If only we could be more creative or less offensive or put it in different words" - all of this lessens the impact of what needs to be said - why don't people just harden up and stop being so super sensitive?

[carolaa]

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you have wasted no opportunity to make it a sexist topic.

How am I doing that? As I said before, it is a culture and not specific to women. In fact i said that converted men are usually worse to deal with.

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If you would just be more creative about your words and never, never, never again compare it to one gender or the other, I think you might be surprised.

Thankyou for supplying yet again another classic example of the wussy culture. "If only we could be more creative or less offensive or put it in different words" - all of this lessens the impact of what needs to be said - why don't people just harden up and stop being so super sensitive?

I can so relate because I tend to think the same thing. I'm independent-minded, and I think everyone else should be too. But I have learned that personalities are very different. There's a book called Just Your Type (or Just My Type), which is excellent at explaining in-depth how different personalities think and process emotions.

You are using words like feminazis, knitting clubs, etc. that set women on the defensive. I think I understand most of what you are trying to say, and I probably agree with a lot of it, but those kind of words are just not necessary to get your point across. There's no reason to offend people from the get-go. When you do that, it turns people off, and they aren't going to be open to anything else you have to say.

I don't like it any better than you do. It seems like playing games to me, and it's hard and I hate it, but I have noticed that it definitely makes a difference in how people respond to me when I try to be more thoughtful with my words.

[Beryl]

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Most of the Bible teachings are radical today. Read the Beatitudes, the story of the Good Samaritan, the teachings of Daniel and Revelation. I beleive the main reason so many teens and young people are leaving the church today is because they see so little of these "radical teachings" being lived out today. There are many young people on the front lines of mission in this country and going overseas who are excited about these radical teachings. Unfortunately they sometimes see too little acted out in the lives of most of the church members. Young people are looking for something that they can beleive in so strongly they will be willing to die for it. Thats radical.

And THAT kind of radical teaching I do believe in. However, when a certain person appears to be talking about preaching that is all fire and brimstone to shake people out of their lethagy, THAT kind of radical preaching will get nowhere.

Radical preaching (of the good type) is preaching that will touch the heart, that will show them that Jesus loves them, that He wants them to allow Him to rule their lives, and He wants to change their hearts and lives, and when it is preached from a heart of love, the Holy Spirit will melt the hearts of the listeners, and they will WANT to serve Him with their hearts and lives.

THAT kind of radical preaching will indeed inspire the young people. In my church we have a great group of young people who are regularly on the preaching plan, we have a minister who preaches sermons that inspire -- and, oh, yes, we also have some great males (young and old) in our church!

Thanks for your post.

God bless,

Beryl.

[Guest Male Man]

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There's a book called Just Your Type (or Just My Type), which is excellent at explaining in-depth how different personalities think and process emotions.

Books abound in this area and some make interesting reading. The problem is that there is a line we should not cross. In attempting to be "nice" many leaders/preachers/pastors actually become unclear in what they are trying to say and so the impact of the message is lost on the hearers/followers. EGW talks alot about being clear and precise in what God requires.

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You are using words like feminazis, knitting clubs, etc. that set women on the defensive

Ok, so you come upo with some better words that adequately describes this phenomena. The Knitting Club was basically to get a reaction but there is still some truth in what I said I reckon about the Ozzy section.

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However, when a certain person appears to be talking about preaching that is all fire and brimstone to shake people out of their lethagy, THAT kind of radical preaching will get nowhere.

Oh you mean like EGW;

The people are asleep in their sins, and need to be alarmed before they can shake off this lethargy. Their ministers have preached smooth things; but God's servants, who bear sacred, vital truths, should cry aloud and spare not, that the truth may tear off the garment of security, and find its way to the heart.-- Vol. 1, p. 248.

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Radical preaching (of the good type) is preaching that will touch the heart, that will show them that Jesus loves them, that He wants them to allow Him to rule their lives, and He wants to change their hearts and lives, and when it is preached from a heart of love, the Holy Spirit will melt the hearts of the listeners, and they will WANT to serve Him with their hearts and lives.

Of course Beryl. But if I just stood up there and spoke about God's love all the way through that would be impractical. Those with a message from the Lord in the scriptures laced their warnings and rebukes with a call back to God but they didn't stand there every sabbath talking about the same topic till it drove all the youth out of the church.

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we have a minister who preaches sermons that inspire

And his fame is well known throughout the South Pacific as a mover and shaker, often getting into trouble with church admin and always polarising people wherever he goes. Of course he doesn't Beryl - I don't even know him or have heard of such a man in Oz. But if such a preacher did exist in Australia, then you could bet your bottom dollar that he wouldn't last long on the payroll and he might even be shut out of a few churches as jesus was.

[Beryl]

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why don't people just harden up and stop being so super sensitive?

Isaiah 42:1-4

"Here is My Servant, whom I uphold,

My Chosen One in Whom I delight;

I will put my Spirit on Him,

and He will bring justice to the nations.

He will not shoutg or cry out,

or raise His voice in the streets.

A bruised reed He will not break,

and a smouldering wick He will not snuff out.

In faithfulness He will bring forth justice;

He will not falter or be discouraged

till He establishes justice on earth.

In His law the islands will put their hope."

"He has shown you, O man, what is good,

And what does the Lord require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." Micah 6:8.

Now read Matthew 25:34 to 46. THIS is what Jesus will be looking for in the Judgment. When have you last helped that man who is so far gone that he cannot live without another drink? Have you talked with him, and told him of the One who loves him? Have you tried to get him to a place where they will help him overcome his addiction? Have you provided him with some clean (second-hand, maybe) clothes? Have you given him something to eat? I have! I befriended a young man -- saved him from the wrath of an Adventist mother. He asked for a Bible. I gave him one. His mind was so far gone that he talked rubbish, but I listened. He landed up in jail. He died in jail, but not before his mind, without the drink, accepted Jesus. I worked with a booze-addicted lady. And she is still alive 10 years later. True, she does not have long to live at this stage, and, no, she has never been to church, but she has found Jesus in her life.

Perhaps you will say I should have made sure she went to church, or had studies or ----. She knows that God loves her, and that He has always been with her, and that is about all that her mind will take in. I leave her future in God's hands.

There are many men out there looking for lovingkindness in their lives. Try finding them, and give them what they need. Take some of the men with you, and teach them how to be REAL men -- helping others, treating the downtrodden of this world how Jesus would treat them. You may find that is what Jesus really wants.

Beryl

[Guest Male Man]

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Now read Matthew 25:34 to 46. THIS is what Jesus will be looking for in the Judgment. When have you last helped that man who is so far gone that he cannot live without another drink?

I helped plenty and still do beryl, it's just that some people shew them back out of the church again because they are uncouth.

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There are many men out there looking for lovingkindness in their lives. Try finding them, and give them what they need. Take some of the men with you, and teach them how to be REAL men -- helping others, treating the downtrodden of this world how Jesus would treat them. You may find that is what Jesus really wants.

"To some he gave the gift of evangelism some prophets and some teachers." It takes all kinds beryl to build God's church but someone has to do the dirty work. Working with drunks and druggies i do for a living mother. The hardest job in God's church is standing against the self righteous do gooders in our system - just ask the prophets and holy men of history if any died by natural causes?

[Beryl]

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someone has to do the dirty work.

I don't consider any work that I do for Christ is dirty work.

Beryl

[Taylor]

[Guest Male Man]

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I don't consider any work that I do for Christ is dirty work.

You misunderstand me again Beryl. I wasn't saying what you do is dirty work. The dirty work which I was referring to is confronting the church on many levels. This is much harder than working with drunks. Drunks dont argue back or bite the hand that tries to help them. No, the real dirty work is mapped out for all who take upon themselves the calling to pastoral/prophetic work. Confronting the church and it's excesses and bringing it to accountability is an very unenviable position which often results in being dishonoured and not honoured. Nowadays, men/women who rise to positions of authority in the church are those thart have managed to avoid the pitfalls of conflict. Through some political trickery and a bit of help from those they know these imposters rise to the office of administration on the back of false promises and feigned popularity.

The true reformers never had it that good but always did the mopping up out the back as EGW found out when they sent her to Ozzzy land. Yes even she herself said the reason for them sending her here was because she was too hot to handle for the admin and public relations of some heavy officials back in Battle Creek. The Loord used the occasion for good but it is a typical and repeated sad legacy which still goes on today for those who dare speak against the church. In the bible it was so and why would it be any different today.

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Being a mover and a shaker may get you in trouble but not always

You show me one example in the bible of a mover and shaker without trouble and you may convince me.

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It isn't true across the board that one must be "in trouble" with the "administration" in order to be Godly!

I repeat,You show me one example in the bible of a mover and shaker who didn't get into trouble with the admin and you may convince me.

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There are good, godly men who are movers and shakers, who are inspirational but they preach the truth unashamedly BUT in love.

And there it is, that qualifyer "in love". The very fact that someone raises an alarm when the building is on fire shows concern and love for those who they wish to get out. What you mean by "in love" is what many interpret to mean "soften it down" so it loses int's impact and people go away with more questions than answers. This is why I have never heard of those preachers that everybody keeps telling me about that are supposed to be in their churches.

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Being in trouble isn't necesarily the mark of "doing the right thing"

True, but if you do the sums, nobody who has stable employment by the church in my country is in trouble which says a whole lot according to the bible I read.

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I have known men of unerring principle who do call sin by it's right name, but are also as wise as serpents and harmless as doves. They know how to speak a word in season, not be bulls in the china closet smashing everything they come in contact with. It is possible to be bold and loving...just have a look at the ultimate man Jesus.

No one is suggesting to be a bull in a china shop. There is a way to speak and act in church and with people. My beef is about putting "being careful what we say" above actually "being truthful in what we say". There is a difference. If I am impressed by God to say something on Homosexuality in my sermon, but hold back because I am told a homosexual is present then that is failing in my duty to God. Wanting to appear to be everybody's friend has and is getting many ministers into positions of compromise and innaffectiveness. They dull their messages down and become nobody's.

[Taylor]

I agree with much of what you posted above. However, can you consider the following: (AGain al the posts above that you responded do are not all Beryls as some are mine but that is ok. )

May I point out something. It is true that if EVERYONE likes you ALL the time in EVERY circumstance, they are probably lying or you are doing something wrong. However, there is another option to consider...let's say that Jesus Christ were a conference president...and you were a pastor. If you were doing everything according to the way the Bible teaches, would you be in trouble with Jesus Christ? Of course not. So there are conference presidents who are not Jesus, who are not even close to being that perfect, who do make mistakes but who are in full support of the gospel being presented correctly. True you should not avoid subjects if God is leading you to preach about them. And if God is leading you, and God is leading your conference president he will also not have a problem with it. There are GREAT pastors who are doing the RIGHT work who aren't in trouble...not becuase they are pansies but becuase they have an incredible leadership team who is also goldy and bold to work with. I have seen it. I could even give you specific names but I don't do so as I don't want to glorify anyone anymore than I want to tear someone down. I think the focus needs to be on Jesus Christ not humans. But I just wanted to say that such a scenario is not only possible, it is reality.

[Taylor]

I agree with much of what you posted above. However, can you consider the following: (AGain al the posts above that you responded do are not all Beryls as some are mine but that is ok. )

May I point out something. It is true that if EVERYONE likes you ALL the time in EVERY circumstance, they are probably lying or you are doing something wrong. However, there is another option to consider...let's say that Jesus Christ were a conference president...and you were a pastor. If you were doing everything according to the way the Bible teaches, would you be in trouble with Jesus Christ? Of course not. So there are conference presidents who are not Jesus, who are not even close to being that perfect, who do make mistakes but who are in full support of the gospel being presented correctly. True you should not avoid subjects if God is leading you to preach about them. And if God is leading you, and God is leading your conference president he will also not have a problem with it. There are GREAT pastors who are doing the RIGHT work who aren't in trouble...not becuase they are pansies but becuase they have an incredible leadership team who is also goldy and bold to work with. I have seen it. I could even give you specific names but I don't do so as I don't want to glorify anyone anymore than I want to tear someone down. I think the focus needs to be on Jesus Christ not humans. But I just wanted to say that such a scenario is not only possible, it is reality.

[Taylor]

Oops sorry I posted this twice and have no idea how to delete the duplicate.