Marriage vs living together

[Neil D]

I want to ask a question regarding marriage and living together....

Remind me again....what is marriage? What is the significant difference between marriage and living together with the possible exception of a public declaration of love that is binding in a legal sense?

With all the talk in various areas on the board about men and women complimenting, I got to thinking [i know, a dangerous thing for me since it burns the few wires I have left]...If men and women are so made to fit together, is there a sense of completeness when there is a marriage [he says after 26 years and one divorce later]? Is there a possibility of oneness with the opposite gender or are there several possiblities of oneness with the opposite gender?

[olger]

This is a question that comes up occasionally when one tries to cloud morality. It doesn't fly...

First, Neil. It's not difficult at all. People know when they are married. Or not.

In the same way that you cannot baptise yourself (Jesus demonstrated this for us) you cannot marry yourself.

We are designed by God with a sexual capacity. That capacity is also designed to function exclusively in marriage. The union of man & wife, illustrate the relationship between God and humanity. And, Jesus is not coming back to the earth for a harlot.

Our world has it wrong, and so do many of us when we argue for that which leads to death. There are three kinds of intimacy: Spiritual, Emotional, and Physical. The world has it backwards. It places the physical aspect first. It is paramount in literature, entertainment, advertising, music, and most of all, in the lives of those around us. God’s list is different. Spiritual, Emotional, Physical. In this order, the physical fulfillment is 10x better. Maybe 100x. May I invite you to experience this order?

Sex outside of marriage is the same sin as adultery. In both cases, you are damaging your heart (the very center of your life) and the heart of the other person. You are wounding their spirit, and they yours. This damage will begin destroying the relationships that you have been given in your life. Unresolved moral failure, when brought into a marriage will eventually destroy that marriage from within. I can provide a whole series of living examples. (I had this to resolve in my own life, things prior to marriage). Immediately following moral failure, people will automatically experience consequences of guilt, shame

Another thing to consider, is that arousing each other on dates is very damaging. Why? Because you are teaching your spouse-to-be how to commit adultery. You are actually showing them how to do it. This also applies to couples who live together prior to marriage. They are teaching their partner HOW to commit adultery, by engaging in sex outside of marriage. Look around you. There are wounded lives on every street. When two damaged people marry, the only way they can get love is through the physical aspect. This leaves both of them unfulfilled spiritually & emotionally. Ask you wife if she feels loved by you, 0-100% tonite. You may get some surprising answers. This will indicate a starvation in the emotional intimacy area.

oG

[Denise]

Very good stuff Olger! Enjoyed reading that, it's so true.

[Dr. Shane]

The only reason someone can believe that living together is the same as marriage is because they don't understand what marriage is. Marriage is first and foremost a religious institution. Civil governments recognize marriage because it is the fundamental building block of society. However that doesn't change the fact that marriage is religious.

Many nonreligious people get married. Although it is a religious institution it is not exclusively for religious people. This is another reason that civil government must recognize and regulate marriage. The marriage of nonreligious people can be compared to living together as it involves only emotions and sex. There is no spiritual commitment to God's principles. However even in this respect it is not the same. Secular marriage carries commitment with it that shacking up does not. Commitment is really what marriage is about. It is committing to God, committing emotionally and sexually to the spouse and committing to the children that are to be born out of the marriage. Thus anything without commitment cannot be marriage since marriage is commitment. Shacking up is commitment free. It is trying out the car before buying it.

[olger]

.

Quote:

Commitment is really what marriage is about. It is committing to God, committing emotionally and sexually to the spouse and committing to the children that are to be born out of the marriage

Precisely.

oG

[Neil D]

Quote:

This is a question that comes up occasionally when one tries to cloud morality. It doesn't fly...

I'm a bit bothered by the implication that **I** am trying to "cloud morality"....I asked a question in honesty and asked to be reminded....This feels like a slap in the face.....

Ok, so since I am "clouding morality", maybe I will deliberately be a bit more agressive in the debate since I am alleged to have a reputation to live up to.....

Quote:

We are designed by God with a sexual capacity. That capacity is also designed to function exclusively in marriage.

Um, perhaps I am misunderstanding....Sex is to function exclusively in marriage? .....Hmmmmmm could you explain where all those "excusive" babys come from with single parents? Seems to me that sex is designed to function....period. Whether we choose marriage or not is a decision that we decide....

Quote:

Our world has it wrong, and so do many of us when we argue for that which leads to death. There are three kinds of intimacy: Spiritual, Emotional, and Physical. The world has it backwards. It places the physical aspect first. It is paramount in literature, entertainment, advertising, music, and most of all, in the lives of those around us. God’s list is different. Spiritual, Emotional, Physical. In this order, the physical fulfillment is 10x better. Maybe 100x. May I invite you to experience this order?

Perhaps the reason that the world orders intimacy with the physcial first is because it is the most easily described....Can you describe the other two with more detail? 'Cus I doubt that you will be able without some sort of contention....But the physcial is easy to describe and it is just as pleasurable as spiritual and emotional intimacy.... So, describe in detail emotional and spiritual intimacy....please...

Quote:

In both cases, you are damaging your heart (the very center of your life) and the heart of the other person. You are wounding their spirit, and they yours. This damage will begin destroying the relationships that you have been given in your life.

Damaging in what way? Wounding the spirit in what way? Damage/destroying relationship in what way?

Quote:

Unresolved moral failure, when brought into a marriage will eventually destroy that marriage from within. I can provide a whole series of living examples. (I had this to resolve in my own life, things prior to marriage). Immediately following moral failure, people will automatically experience consequences of guilt, shame

Is it guilt that follows...Or is it a feeling that you need to get out because you can see that the relationship will not work?

Quote:

Another thing to consider, is that arousing each other on dates is very damaging. Why? Because you are teaching your spouse-to-be how to commit adultery. You are actually showing them how to do it. This also applies to couples who live together prior to marriage. They are teaching their partner HOW to commit adultery, by engaging in sex outside of marriage. Look around you. There are wounded lives on every street.

Adultery only happens when one deliberately chooses to stray....However, there are many who live together and who are living well together.....And there are many more within the church that I see as not that happy in marriage anyways....Seems to me that the emotional and spiritual intimacys are not being fulfilled by those within the church. Sound to me that the "frozen choosen" havenn't learned those lessons either....

Sorry, Olger....I am not convinced...your arguements, at least to me, seem full of holes....And I am not trying to be contentious here, either....I am not seeing what you see as a reality....And I am a bit disappointed.

[Dr. Shane]

Statistics show that couples that live together before getting married are more likely to divorce. Furthermore, the longer they live together before getting married, the greater their likelihood of divorce.

[Nan]

It is my personal opinion that couples who become physically intimate too quickly, are endangering their relationship. For a relationship to last, skills in conflict resolution must be developed. If the quickest way to reconciliation is to 'hit the sack' together, underlying issues will not have been resolved. Eventually such issues will start gnawing away at both parties.

Of course that is not to say that a couple living together could not take things slowly and advance their togetherness in appropriate stages, how often such happens in practice I do not know.

Just a few random thoughts - gathered over the years.

[Dr. Shane]

Dr. Dave and Dr. Dee

Dear Dr. Dave and Dr. Dee,

My boyfriend and I have talked of marriage, but he feels that we should live together first. Although I'm 22, I still feel parental pressure, and know they wouldn't approve of this "trial marriage". My boyfriend says that the divorce rate is so high because people don't really know a person until they live with them. He wants to get married after we've tried living together for a year. What do you think?

Signed,

Torn

Dear Torn,

Your boyfriend is incorrect in his assumption that living together before marriage would help lower the divorce rate.

The divorce rate in the United States is high, with estimates anywhere from 40% to 60%. However, divorce rates are even higher for those who cohabitate before marriage. About 40% of cohabitants break up before getting married. But of those who do get married, the divorce rate is nearly 50% higher for cohabitants than for non-cohabitants. The evidence seems to show that living together before marriage increases the risk of divorce.

Cohabitation: A Road To Divorce?

Cohabiting partners "experience significantly more difficulties in subsequent marriages and with issues of adultery, alcohol, drugs, and independence than couples who had not cohabited." Marriages preceded by cohabitation are 50 to 100 percent more likely to break up than those not preceded by cohabitation. (William Axinn and Arland Thornton, "The Relationship Between Cohabitation and Divorce: Selectivity or Casual Influence?" Demography, Vol. 29, 1992, page 358.)

Cohabiting couples have less healthy relationships than married couples. (Jan E. Stets, "The Link Between Past and Present Intimate Relationships," Journal of Family Issues, 114, 1993, page 251).

Males beating female partners are "at least twice as common among cohabitors as it is among married partners." (Jan E. Stets, "Cohabiting and Marital Aggression: The Role of Social Isolation," Journal of Marriage and the Family, Vol. 53, 1991, pages 669-670)

Married people live longer and generally are more emotionally and physically healthy than their unmarried counterparts. Goldscheider, Thornton, Young and DeMarco, Brown University and University of Michigan, “A Portrait of the Nest-Leaving Process in Early Adulthood”, Demography 1993.

Married people have the best and the most sex. ”Sex in America” University of Chicago Study, Time, Oct. 17, 1994.

Of all sexually active people, married couples report being the most physically pleased and emotionally satisfied. (Robert T. Michael, John H. Gagnon, and Edward O. Lauman, Sex in America: A Definitive Survey, Boston: Little, Brown & Co., 1994, page 124.)

[olger]

Quote:

I'm a bit bothered by the implication that **I** am trying to "cloud morality"....I asked a question in honesty and asked to be reminded....This feels like a slap in the face.....

Hi Neil. Sorry. I have fielded this question several times and I am referring to insights gained already in answering it. Don’t take it too personal.

Quote:

Perhaps the reason that the world orders intimacy with the physcial first is because it is the most easily described....

The reason that the” world” elevates sex over emotional & spiritual intimacy is found in 1st John 2:16. In like manner, Peter refers to the consuming lust of the world as a “flood of dissipation” (1 Peter 4:3). The enemy (the god of this world) is opposed to God’s order in marriage and thus opposes God’s order of intimacy. We know this from Scripture.

Quote:

Can you describe the other two with more detail? 'Cus I doubt that you will be able without some sort of contention....But the physcial is easy to describe and it is just as pleasurable as spiritual and emotional intimacy.... So, describe in detail emotional and spiritual intimacy....please...

I will, and thanks for asking. Adam enjoyed spiritual communion with God before God gave him a wife. Spiritual intimacy is opening the heart to God in communication with Him. When we are married, we experience this by praying together and communing on that level. That is why if a couple is not on the same spiritual journey, their lives don’t mesh together (2 Cor. 6:14,15).

Emotional intimacy is the opening of our hearts to our spouse. This results in heart-to-heart communication, something much deeper and more meaningful than head communication. When a husband cares intensely for the heart of his wife and she responds the same way, they have emotional intimacy. Interestingly, when this occurs people can’t find their depression (assuming that they struggle with depression).

Lastly, is the physical (sexual) aspect of the marriage. When the first two (intimacies) are met, the couple can give themselves completely to each other on their honeymoon night . When the physical (sexual) aspect is initiated prior to or outside of marriage it programs the wife all wrong (and the same thing happens to the guy). Later on, she cannot respond to the things that she should, and she responds to things that she shouldn’t. Everything gets programmed wrong inside (we need God to change this for us, and it involves confession, repentance & cleansing).

Quote:

Is it guilt that follows...Or is it a feeling that you need to get out because you can see that the relationship will not work?

Good question. The problem in marriage is not our spouse. It is the unresolved spiritual (or emotional) issues that each of us brought into the relationship. When we transgress God’s moral law, we experience three consequences. Guilt, shame and fear. God sends these to alert us of our dangerous condition. These three cause a lot of pain. As I work with people, I have found that sexual sin is the area of deepest regret from Grandfathers to Pastors to youths. Let me say this. There is hope. Healing is available.

As to your secondary question about getting out, yes. That is the result of the wrong programming that we mentioned. It leads to an “escape” marriage.

Quote:

However, there are many who live together and who are living well together.....

They may look OK on the outside but you get into the heart of those individuals and you will find all kinds of pain.

Quote:

And there are many more within the church that I see as not that happy in marriage anyways....

There is too much of this, I agree. For instance: As I travel around the country and meet people I find that almost 80% of believers have not resolved their bitterness from the heart. Many of them have read a book or heard a sermon on forgiveness and said "God I forgive everyone that's ever hurt me." I was one of them. It doesn't work that way.

Let me say this. God never intended that your marriage would be frustrating. It only is because of spiritual issues that each partner brings into the marriage and they become barriers. Sometimes these issues are generational (inherited). They too can be resolved in Christ. I have seen people spend $26,000 on counseling and still not have freedom. They came here and we helped them resolve their issues for no charge. God is in the business of changing lives – it’s not me that's doing it.

Quote:

Seems to me that the emotional and spiritual intimacys are not being fulfilled by those within the church. Sound to me that the "frozen choosen" havenn't learned those lessons either....

To some extent I agree. Let's remember that there are many who are walking in harmony, so it certainly isn't everyone. Nancy & I have a real burden to help people find joy in their relationships.

Go in peace

oG

[Jeannieb43]

Another difference between marriage and living together is the security which marriage provides. Not mere emotional security, but legal security as well, for which the state has provided laws.

When one's spouse dies, there are inheritance laws which provide for the widow(er). When one's cohabiting partner dies, the remaining person is left without any financial protection other than what has been specifically provided for in, say, a specific gift prior to death.

The law favors marriage. If there's a dispute, the law will favor the person holding a legally registered marriage certificate.

[Dr. Shane]

My wife's brother never married his live-in girlfriend and mother of his child. He was murdered and since they were never married, we cannot bring his widow and his child to the US (they live in El Salvador) Had they been legally married, INS would allow us to bring them here. As it is, it is virtually impossible for us to bring them here.

[Nan]

In this country I believe that after 2 years cohabitation, a surviving partner has equivalent rights of inheritance to a spouse, in cases of intestacy.

[Beryl]

Quote:

Interestingly, when this occurs people can’t find their depression (assuming that they struggle with depression).

That is assuming that there is no hereditary link to bi-polar disease. If there is, then that is a different story.

Beryl

[olger]

Coasp: Hello and how are you.

As divorce rates grew in America, a wave of young people, damaged by the breakup of their parents marriages began to reason thusly. "Mom & Dad just weren't compatible. Had they knew each other better prior to marriage they could have averted this tragedy." They then decided that shacking up was the best way to test compatibility, and thousands entered into these trial situations. Did it help?

The failure rate among those who shack up first is 68%. No it didn't help, in fact it mde things worse. Here's why.

The Bible identifies eleven consequences for immoral conduct:

1) Justify their actions (Proverbs 30:20).

2) Deceit/deception (II Samuel 11:2-13).

3) Restitution not acceptable (Proverbs 6:35).

4) Financial loss (Proverbs 5:10; 6:26)

5) Reproach will not be blotted out (Proverbs 6:33; II Samuel 13:12-13).

6) Will go astray in other areas (Proverbs 5:23).

7) Conflict in family relationships (II samuel 12:10; 13:15, 23-39).

8) No desire to be together (II Samuel 13:15; Proverbs 7:12).

9) Calamity (II 12:14).

10) Immorality in the family (II Samuel 12:11-12; 13:1-16).

11) God's reputation will be destroyed. ( Psalm 51:4; 2 Samuel 12:14).

I could provide a whole series of examples of these consequences.

The Bible also identifies these consequences of premarital sex:

Guilt

Blame

Conflict with one another

Rejection by one another

Lack of sympathy

Lack of respect for one another

Distrust/dishonesty

Loss of communication

Loss of spiritual interest

Financial loss

Inability to respond physically in marriage

Lack of fulfillment.

regards,

oG

[olger]

Hi Beryl. The fastest growing "ailment" in Australia is depression, and America is close behind.

According to Minerth-Meyer, 90-95% of depression is emotional & spiritual. Only about 5% is chemical imbalance.

I don't use tags on people:

Bi-polar

ADD

ADHD etc...

The reason I don't is that tags are a death sentence. We can't fix the heart with drugs.

oG

[Planey]

I don't use tags on people:

Bi-polar

ADD

ADHD etc...

The reason I don't is that tags are a death sentence. We can't fix the heart with drugs.

Bi-polar disease is very real - it is not just a "label"

And in many cases it is susceptible to treatment by medication.

A number of mental illnesses are caused by some sort of imbalance (chemical) within the body and hence may be treated physically rather than by psychiatry.

My brother had a foster daughter who suffered from bi-polar disorder. She kept it under control with medication, But when medicated she felt great and sometimes she would believe she was "cured" and leave off taking her pills,

During one of these episodes (when she was about 18 years old and no longer living at home with my brother's family) she took her life by jumping off of a tall building.

Pretty final result for just a label.

Graeme

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

those that were prone to being less committed to the idea of marriage would be more likely to co habitat, not that cohabitation caused divorce. A big distinction.

This does seem to be the prevailing wisdom. One may note that I have not posted anything to the contrary. Yet it is rather academic. The fact still remains that those that cohabitate are more likely to get divorced, deal with adultery and or other forms of abuse.

[Woody]

Quote:

And in many cases it is susceptible to treatment by medication.

Below are a few thoughts that Ellen White had on illness and the use of drugs...

Quote:

"Drug medication, as it is generally practiced, is a curse. Educate away from drugs. Use them less and less..." Counsels on Health, p. 261 (1890).

Quote:

"But drugging should be forever abandoned; for while it does not cure any malady, it enfeebles the system, making it more susceptible to disease." (Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 311)

Quote:

"It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression." Counsels On Health, p. 37

Quote:

"If any among us are sick, let us not dishonor God by applying to earthly physicians, but apply to the God of Israel. If we follow his directions (James 5:14, 15) the sick will be healed. God's promise cannot fail. Have faith in God, and trust wholly in him, that when Christ who is our life shall appear we may appear with him in glory." (To Those who are Receiving the Seal of the Living God,)

[Stan]

You would support the drugs that were used in 1870 or so when that was written?

[Woody]

Good Point Stan.

Apparently she wasn't aware of our time and age when she used the word "forever".

[fccool]

Funny Redwood .... . I can appreciate sarcasm.

I think our view of marriage in this time and age is so perverted, that even parents don't realize what is going on! Biblically the marriage has some pre requisites that certainly do not fall under what we consider to be prerequisites for marriage today. Today state dictates who should marry and who should not. We apply for licenses issued by the government for the marriage to be viewed as "legal". The majority of the priests and pastors who marry people are acting on behalf of the state when they say "By authority vested in me by the State...."

Nevertheless, as I am about to go through marriage ceremony myself, there are quite of the few things to consider in light of the Biblical view of marriage and some of E G White's points in Adventist Home (good book!).

There is great emphasis on the ceremony itself in our culture to the point of Idolatry IMO. Standard wedding is around 15k today, which is really not a money issue... but shows our preoccupation with showing off in a way.

BTW, whoever showed the statistics of people living together, more likely to be divorced is forgetting the statistic of the "Christian marriages" to more likely end up in divorce ( http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm). I think the reason is our expectation of marriage itself.

The funny thing is that cohabitation is not condemned in Bible as sin. Sexual immorality is. Is it possible for a couple to live together without sin? Sure it is! Jesus' parents did.

[olger]

Quote:

Standard wedding is around 15k today, which is really not a money issue... but shows our preoccupation with showing off in a way.

A-MEN

oG

[Neil D]

And marriage is a " religious institution"?

Somehow, on a primal/personal level, I don't see marriage as a "religious institution".... I know that I live in the US, but the US is an open society...hence many things can occur before the institutions in that society become involved...

What is marriage? If marriage is to be for living together and bringing children into a secure home, then what about that time when the children are grown up and gone? What is marriage for the older folks?

Is it a growing together and merging one personality with another? For what purpose? and under what circumstances, to an older generation, does marriage mean "living together"?

I see recriminations among those people who say they love one another...It is painful to whatch and hear the words " S/He always thinks......." with gravel that comes in the voice...Is that what marriage is? Tolerance?

[Dr. Shane]

Marriage was created by God in the Garden of Eden. It is kind of hard to argue that it is not a religious institution.

Consequently Satan wars against the two institutions that God created in the Garden: Marriage and the Sabbath.