Marriage vs living together

[phkrause]

I agree with you shane that marriage was created by God with the Sabbath, and both are an institution from the creation of the earth. And as far as being a religious institution is concerned I personally don't look at it that way. Only because organized religion today isn't anything like what God had created. But I find nothing wrong with you believing or excepting that.

pkrause

[carolaa]

And marriage is a " religious institution"?

Somehow, on a primal/personal level, I don't see marriage as a "religious institution".... I know that I live in the US, but the US is an open society...hence many things can occur before the institutions in that society become involved...

What is marriage? If marriage is to be for living together and bringing children into a secure home, then what about that time when the children are grown up and gone? What is marriage for the older folks?

Is it a growing together and merging one personality with another? For what purpose? and under what circumstances, to an older generation, does marriage mean "living together"?

I see recriminations among those people who say they love one another...It is painful to whatch and hear the words " S/He always thinks......." with gravel that comes in the voice...Is that what marriage is? Tolerance?

I think of marriage more as a spiritual institution than a religious institution. To me, the idea of marriage is to help us understand the Godhead better so we can reflect it better - the unconditional love, the commitment, the sacrifice, how each serves the other, etc. Procreation is another way to understand God better, and marriages were originally intended to procreate, but that is not the only reason for marriage.

[Neil D]

I think of marriage more as a spiritual institution than a religious institution. To me, the idea of marriage is to help us understand the Godhead better so we can reflect it better - the unconditional love, the commitment, the sacrifice, how each serves the other, etc. Procreation is another way to understand God better, and marriages were originally intended to procreate, but that is not the only reason for marriage.

Ok, let's go with the idea that a "spiritual institution"...and put the rubber to the road....

this might work for when one is 20-48 years with kids or soon to have children...but in the later years after 50, when the children are gone, where is the way to understand God better? What is the incentive to stay together, particularly if the marriage was contentious, or at least not happy....What spiritual lessons could be reflected in a marriage at this stage?

[Neil D]

Marriage was created by God in the Garden of Eden. It is kind of hard to argue that it is not a religious institution.

Um...excuse me, but define what is marriage? [Please realize, this is said by someone who likes the idea of marriage.]

What did God do/say that indicated that He said to Adam, "you are to stay with Eve.Eve you are to stay with Adam. You are married."

[olger]

What's your story, comrade?

Contented married people don't ask these questions.

There are three types of marriages that we encounter.

1) Endure. It's a burden. I made a comittment as a believer to stay together and I'm stuck in this miserable relationship and everybody hates me and if I had some worms...

2) Escape. I just want to get away!! I want to run, because I'M not getting anything out of this relationship and MY needs have to be met because I am unique and I'M sure that MY God doesn't want ME to be trapped in a dehumanizing relationship so I'M outta here !!!!

3) Enjoy. After 25-years I love my wife more than when we were married. She is fun to be around and I like laughing together and seeking God. We have things to balance, sure and we are using the tools God has given in His word to resolve issues right away as they come up. We don't drive on flat tires..

Test:

One of these marriages is of God ! Two are a result of selfishness and following the lies of the enemies. See if you can guess which is which.

oG

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

when the children are gone, where is the way to understand God better?

Marriage is not about children. Marriage starts without children (at least ideally) and it ends without children (at least ideally). Some marriages don't even produce children. Marriage is about commitment.

Our commitment in marriage teaches about God's commitment to us - at least it should. God is faithful to us. Even when we sin against Him, He does not "divorce" us. He is loving, patient and ever loyal. This is why marriage is a taste of heaven. The love, patience and loyalty we give our spouses and they give us teach us in just a small degree about our relationship with God.

[phkrause]

I like your reply better than mine. A spiritual institution is better to me than a religious institution. I've never been comfortable with the word "religious", but that's me.

pkrause

[Dr. Shane]

The word religious makes a lot of people uncomfortable because they have been beat up by religion. Yet religion is spiritual. Something can be spiritual without being religious - true. However when we are talking about religions as organizations that believe in a supernatural god, something cannot be religious without being spiritual.

In the Christian tradition, marriage is religious because 1) Christianity is a religion. 2) Christians believe in the Bible. 3) The Bible teaches God created marriage.

[Neil D]

So, you got married for "spiritual reasons", so that you could reflect the Godhead better????

Excuse me, did your wife/spouse agree that this was the reason you two needed to get married???

[carolaa]

So, you got married for "spiritual reasons", so that you could reflect the Godhead better????

Excuse me, did your wife/spouse agree that this was the reason you two needed to get married???

I'm sure the Godhead has passionate desire, as well.

[fccool]

Historically, and Biblically, marriages has been arranged by parents of the married people. That was the case with Adam and Eve. Today people strongly advocate against such arrangements, but I think it teaches important truth about what marriage meant to be.

The whole idea that God even created gender leads me to conclude that there is some purpose to it outside of reproduction. The primary purpose for marriage is NOT to illustrate commitment, but for companionship. God himself said "It is not good for man to be alone"... and he made Eve. He could have made another man, but he programmed into us the idea of desire for one another (in context of choice of course). So when Adam saw Eve, I doubt he would say "get this ugly thing away from me" . He received her with great appreciation, to the point of choosing to listen to her instead of God. He loved her greatly even there was no choice, dating, or ceremony involved.

So, if your question is... Should there be a religious ceremony for you to be considered married, then Biblically, the answer is NO! The marriage commitment is entirely up to the couple and before God, and their parents. I don't see a set ceremony anywhere in the Bible outside of the groom coming for his wife and taking her to join him. I think denying people married status just because they are unwilling to jump through the legal and cultural hoops is not a Biblical concept. Neither it is a Biblical concept that only ordained ministers can join people in marriage ... that one is a purely Catholic church concept in its attempt to control everything and anything. I don't advocate against it, but you have to understand that this is mostly based on tradition and culture.

[olger]

Quote:

I think denying people married status just because they are unwilling to jump through the legal and cultural hoops is not a Biblical concept."

This statement represents a crossroads of thinking in our culture and I cannot agree with it!

But why..gerry?

Several reasons..

I had a guy working for me who was shacking up with a girl. He talked to me about it one day and defended his position. I asked him. How would you feel if your son shacked up with a girl?

"He better not!" Interesting isn't it? His heart knew it was wrong and he wanted better for his son.

If a person can just go sleep around with a person and then justify their sin by stating "We're married" is that Biblical? Let's look at it.

Must Marriage be Legal to be Blessed by God?

letter: "I have an 18 year old son that has been dating his girlfriend for 2 years. They are officially engaged. Recently they suspected she was pregnant. God answers prayers and thankfully she was not.

I tried to talk to both kids about pre martial sex and abstaining until they are married. My son's reply shocked me.. He proceeded to tell me "We are married mom".. I asked what made him think that. He said they had made their vows to each other and consummated the relationship, and though not legally married he felt that they are married in the eyes of God. He also stated that no where in the bible does it state you have to go through a "ceremony" and he felt what they did was enough.

My son is a VERY intelligent boy, in the top 10% of his class in college, but since he started taking philosophy he has come up with some strange ideas about God etc.. I want to show him that they need to be legally married but I can't find anywhere in the bible where it states "How to marry", it just says marry. Can you help me find an answer, or is my son right? Any advice would be appreciated.

Lynn"

Answer:

"Thank you for writing. This is a very interesting question as it pertains to the biblical approach to marriage. I'd like to review the way the Bible approaches the concept of marriage. I think marriage is woefully misunderstood in our society and by examining how the Bible defines marriage we can better grasp how we should enter into a marriage relationship.

1. Marriage is an institution created by God and therefore is holy.

Jesus confirmed this in Matthew 19 when He said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Because God created marriage, it becomes more than just a cultural idea. It is a holy union blessed by God. In recognizing such, it deserves a certain amount of respect and recognition beyond "we say we're married so we are".

2. Marriage can only be between a man and a woman.

In creating marriage, God defined it precisely. Genesis 2:24 states, "For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh." Marriage can only be between a man and a woman where they are joined together as a single entity. It involves the leaving of the old, childhood life and starting something new.

There are many kinds of unions between people. However, that does not make them equivalent to marriage. Living together may be a type of union, but it does not join the participants into a single entity. Our laws recognize that spouses cannot testify against one another; precisely because they are joined in such a union.

It also answers the question of so-called "homosexual marriage". Since, by definition, marriage can only be between a man and a woman, homosexual unions are not marriages. They cannot be. You may use some other term to describe their relationship, but to use the word marriage is incorrect. The definition won't allow it.

3. Marriage is more than a commitment.

In your question, you state "He said they had made their vows to each other and consummated the relationship, ... He also stated that nowhere in the bible does it state you have to go through a 'ceremony' and he felt what they did was enough." Your son said he felt making vows to each other was enough to constitute a marriage in the eyes of God. However, the Bible actually does take a different view.

You see, marriage is more than just making a commitment to someone else. It is also entering into a holy covenant before God. In Malachi, God is rebuking the people of Judah for not following His laws. There we read, " 'Because the Lord has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion, and your wife by covenant.. For I hate divorce,' says the Lord." (Mal 2:14,16). (For more on divorce, please see "Is Matthew 19 a Contradiction?").

God says here that marriage is a covenant, one witnessed and sealed by Him. A commitment is a civil agreement. A covenant is religious by nature and should be presided over by a religious official. Breaking a commitment can be done by mutual agreement. However, a covenant is considered binding and can only be broken if God has provided for such a dissolution - such as adultery.

4. Marriage is to be witnessed.

Because marriage is a covenant to be entered freely by two individuals, is must be witnessed by at least two or three people. This idea is confirmed in Matthew 18:16, where Jesus quotes Leviticus, "Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed."

Ruth 4:9-12 shows this applies specifically to marriage when Boaz seeks out witnesses to secure his right to marry Ruth, the Moabitess. There, the witnesses even pronounce a marriage blessing on them.

5. Marriage is to be held in honor.

If we take all of the above into account, we can see that marriage is an institution not to be taken lightly. In fact, it is a union of the highest honor. "Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled..." (Heb. 13:4).

Interestingly, this verse links the idea of marriage to legal custom. In Romans 13, Paul tells us that we are to be in subjection to governing authorities. In other words, we are to obey the laws of the land because God has placed those people in power. Then, in verse 7, he writes, "Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor."

We know that marriage is honorable and the Bible commands us to render it honor properly. Further, it shows that we are to obey the governing laws and respect the customs associated with Biblical marriage.

Our laws recognize the holy union of marriage (point number 1), require it to be between a man and a woman (point number 2), recognizes the covenant nature of marriage by sanctioning clergy to perform marriage ceremonies (point number 3), and requires witnesses (point number 4). Therefore, in order to give marriage proper honor and to render the proper respect to the governing authorities, legal marriage is both required and appropriate. It does not follow that legal marriage is not necessary in today's society.

Taking all into account, the Bible clearly shows that an official marriage ceremony governed by clergy is entering into marriage appropriately. Jesus blessed official marriage by performing His first miracle at the marriage feast in Cana (John 2) . His relationship with the church is compared to a bridegroom and his bride, again showing the holiness of the marriage relationship.

It is an unfortunate commentary on our society that we've reduced the idea of marriage to one of comfort. With Las Vegas 30 minute weddings and no-fault divorce, we are straying farther and farther away from the idea of the holy covenant God set forth. It is to be binding, not broken by any man.

I would question your son's sincerity in his intent for marriage. If he truly is serious in vowing "until death do us part", then why would he be resistant to making that vow legal? Many times people are betrayed by their concern for the consequences of their actions. The consequences of dissolving a legal marriage are much less than they were, but are still significant. It could be those consequences are what bothers him, which means he isn't entering a covenant relationship, but merely a temporary agreement -and that isn't marriage.

I hope this has helped you understand what Biblical marriage is and why it is important. Please let me know how things go. I will be praying for you and your family. May God bless you as you continue to seek Him."

• An additional reason that marriage exists only when a covenant is entered into is found in 2 Samuel 15. Amnon wanted to “take” Tamar in a physical relationship. She pleaded with him to not do this evil thing, and to ask her father and he would give her to Amnon. If the sexual union creates a “marriage” then she would have no basis for her plea to Amnon to wait and ask for her hand in marriage.

olger

[melvin mccarty]

Just to provide some balance here consider the story of Isaac and Rebecca.

mel

[fccool]

Olger, please don't misrepresent what I am trying to say here. Forgive me for reposting what I did, but I think you need to read my post more carefully before jumping to any conclusions:

Historically, and Biblically, marriages has been arranged by parents of the married people. That was the case with Adam and Eve. Today people strongly advocate against such arrangements, but I think it teaches important truth about what marriage meant to be.

So far, nothing in this post contradicts anything you have stated above. I don't advocate sleeping around or simply stating that you are married and so be it. Marriage is a covenant relationship between two people and God by permission and blessing of their parents. It is NOT a covenant relationship between two people and minister who represents God and Government. There are simply too many parties in this arrangement. As you have pointed out yourself... man leaves his parents and joins with his wife. Covenant relationship is what I'm talking about here, there are no other stipulations such as marriage by minister and the State before the marriage becomes "official". It's just like Baptism, there are no stipulations that a believer can not Baptize another believer unless he is an ordained minister. That was one of the reasons we have a protestant church in USA today... because Pope refused to marry a king .

The whole idea that God even created gender leads me to conclude that there is some purpose to it outside of reproduction. The primary purpose for marriage is NOT to illustrate commitment, but for companionship. God himself said "It is not good for man to be alone"... and he made Eve. He could have made another man, but he programmed into us the idea of desire for one another (in context of choice of course). So when Adam saw Eve, I doubt he would say "get this ugly thing away from me" . He received her with great appreciation, to the point of choosing to listen to her instead of God. He loved her greatly even there was no choice, dating, or ceremony involved.

Again, I don't see anything that would contradict you above reply. The original marriage was an arranged marriage with no ceremony involved. It was between Adam, Eve and God... the same way we will be judged. When we are judged we will not be pointing to the Government or our Pastors in search for faults. It is an issue between us and God.

So, if your question is... Should there be a religious ceremony for you to be considered married, then Biblically, the answer is NO! The marriage commitment is entirely up to the couple and before God, and their parents. I don't see a set ceremony anywhere in the Bible outside of the groom coming for his wife and taking her to join him. I think denying people married status just because they are unwilling to jump through the legal and cultural hoops is not a Biblical concept. Neither it is a Biblical concept that only ordained ministers can join people in marriage ... that one is a purely Catholic church concept in its attempt to control everything and anything. I don't advocate against it, but you have to understand that this is mostly based on tradition and culture.

Again, my emphasis was NOT on our freedom to sleep around, but on our current understanding of Marriage. If you consider people who sign papers in the courthouse to be "married" why would you not consider a couple who are committed to each other and live up to their commitments?

1In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2(This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3And everyone went to his own town to register.

4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

Notice that God did not give a child to the "married" couple. Or did He? I don't think that the fact that Marry would not be a virgin would make Jesus in any way sinful by birth. Marry still had a sinful nature even though she was a virgin. It was a symbolic and miraculous sign. That's why hassidic Jews today consider Jesus to be a bastard child. He was born out of wedlock. Or was He?

There are much deeper things in marriage than ceremony. Ceremony is merely a public recognition and celebration of marriage. It is not an initiation of it. Neither is signing papers in the courthouse to be considered initiation of marriage. Marriage is a covenant between man and wife with approval of (god fearing) parents. Read some Biblical examples of marriages and you will see what I'm talking about.

[olger]

Thank you.

Quote:

"The primary purpose for marriage is NOT to illustrate commitment.."

You sure about that? "What God hath joined together, let not man separate."

It appears that you have a controversy with the concept of a marriage ceremony that the state recognizes. Where do you live currently, if I may ask?

While I applaud your verbal assent to sexual fidelity, if you rewrite marriage according to your definition, you risk redefining the covenant itself. Trading parents for a minister of God might place a higher responsibility on the father, who stands as a priest of the family already.

Mary being a virgin was essential not only from a miraculous standpoint, but also from a clean standpoint. The 144,000 who follow the lamb are represented as "not defiled with women."

A priest was enjoined to marry a virgin only. God bringing Jesus into a family illustrates the high priority that God places upon a family unit. Else Jesus would have born from a single virgin mom.

As to the public recognition of marriage, that has importance, perhaps more than we realize. As I mentioned earlier, if individuality was the priority, Jesus would have baptised Himself. His choice to do it in public and with a "minister" has some significance.

regards from Chattanooga,

oG

[fccool]

You sure about that? "What God hath joined together, let not man separate."

My point was that the PRIMARY purpose of marriage was NOT to illustrate commitment, but for man to enjoy companionship. There are many secondary purposes and symbolisms, but that was not the point I was making.

It appears that you have a controversy with the concept of a marriage ceremony that the state recognizes. Where do you live currently, if I may ask?

Same as you, in great ol' USA. And yes, I will go through marriage ceremony fairly soon, and I no ... I don't cohabitate with my fiance if that is your follow up question. And yes I will get a marriage license from state, to save my wife to be some heartaches of misunderstanding where I am coming from. But that does not mean that it is a correct view on marriage.

While I applaud your verbal assent to sexual fidelity, if you rewrite marriage according to your definition, you risk redefining the covenant itself. Trading parents for a minister of God might place a higher responsibility on the father, who stands as a priest of the family already.

I'm not trying to rewrite the marriage according to my definition... but I'd like to see where you get your bases for yours Biblically. Biblically I don't see bases for ceremony and state approval that we have today. I can buy a culture and tradition argument, but not that it's somehow any more Biblical that I've described.

Mary being a virgin was essential not only from a miraculous standpoint, but also from a clean standpoint. The 144,000 who follow the lamb are represented as "not defiled with women."

A priest was enjoined to marry a virgin only. God bringing Jesus into a family illustrates the high priority that God places upon a family unit. Else Jesus would have born from a single virgin mom.

You are misapplying a principle here IMO. There is a difference of sleeping around and long life commitment. It is the mode of the commitment that you are questioning, and not the purity of it. What you are advocating is fact that there can be no purity outside of ceremonial marriage. I disagree. As I have shown you, Jesus was born into a family that yet went through a ceremonial marriage. It is the commitment on the side of the couple and their parents that initiates the marriage, not approval by the clergy.

As to the public recognition of marriage, that has importance, perhaps more than we realize. As I mentioned earlier, if individuality was the priority, Jesus would have baptised Himself. His choice to do it in public and with a "minister" has some significance.

Oh, no doubt! There is a sense of public accountability. We can not Baptize ourselves, as eventually it is God who Baptizes us. The fact that you are dipped underwater without acknowledging saving power of God will change little. Baptism is a symbol, just like circumcision was symbolic. believers CAN baptize each other. Obviously there are no instances of self-baptism. But, don't mistake baptism with marriage as it is separate issue, and thus you can not honestly carry over this argument. If taken too far, your minister would requiring of blessing everything that you do publicly. I think that individuality is priority as we are told to "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling".