fccool Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 I think one of the biggest issues today is how we as Adventists perceive truth. What brought me to finally write about is was a comment from the Sabbath School teacher this morning and the reaction of those who were listening (which was mocking laughter). Basically the teacher who is know to bring up some of the controversial questions said something to the effect of : " We have to understand that our faith is that... faith. It is based on certain evidence and facts, but we believe things the same way we believe that scientist believe things. Based on observation and deduction. Therefore we must not afraid to ask questions, because if what we believe does not have solid ground under it... then we must re-examine what we believe and keep searching for the truth." I hope that I paraphrased it accurately, but you get the taste of what he was saying. People shook their had, some laughed as though we had the truth and further evaluation and discussion is not needed. And it got me thinking that our unwillingness to take some of the criticism at face value and to examine our faith and if it holds up. Like that poor guy who dares to ask questions, I only wonder how other more conservative churches than ours react to such actions? The percentage of young people in our church is reaching 0% as many just leave. I am representative of the younger generation of the church, and I understand why young people are leaving in great numbers... and I don't believe it has much to do with rebellion. They are leaving because they are being viewed as rebels any time they raise valid questions. Such questions could be "Is wearing Jewelry a sin?". When they are provided with answer... which is usually YES. They ask "Why"... "Show me Biblical bases". I've heard a girl ask a pastor that and he showed her some verses... Isaiah 3:16-24, 1 Peter 3:1-6, and 1 Timothy 2:9, 10. And I did not find these verses explicitly state that wearing jewelry is a sin. Passage in Isaiah is talking about sin of pride, which resulted in flamboyant appearance. Peter is contrasting the importance of inner beauty and elevates it above the outward appearance. And pulling out Paul's letter out of context was a quite humorous lesson for the pastor as the girl has read the verses from 1st Timothy that were following the verse about women not wearing jewelry... 11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety. And the girl said that I guess if the pastor believed that the verses 9 and 10 applied then she should just be quiet and not be speaking in the first place and that she must have a child to be saved. The point is that in many adventist churches today you will be denied your God given right to baptism if you don't agree with certain points of Adventist doctrine (such as EG White and Jewelry) as though you are being baptized into Adventist church. And I think that we as Adventists need to rethink "playing God" in such manner. I was always tempted to walk up to those rejects and say... If you believe that Jesus is the Lord and you are willing to do what he says and continue searching for truth... then let's go fill up a bath tub in your house and invite some friends of yours. I'll baptize you right there and then... and some day I might just do so if the opportunity permits. It is sad that our view of truth (that we have it all) at times inhibits work of God and causes many to view Christianity in a negative light. It is truly a wake up call for me and I hope you will consider my thoughts on this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Fccool ... We are blessed to have you in our church. I sure hope you stay. I am impressed at how articulate you are in presenting your concern. I agree with all you have said. What we DO need is YOUR voice in our church. Keep up the message. It is very needed by all of us and not just the young people. You have great insight for being young in years. We need this voice. Keep shouting ... or whatever is needed and appropriate. And start filling that bathtub ... for I suspect that God will send you many. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 fccool ... I thought I should probably explain that the issue of Jewelry really came from Ellen White rather than the Bible. Quote: "The ornamentation of the person with jewels and luxurious things is a species of idolatry. " Bible Training School, May 1, 1908. Yet ... we do have photos or her with Jewlery and she did admit to wearing jewels. What is a double whammy here is that Ellen White was very opposed to any photography also. And the description of Photographs is the same as that of Jewelry. Quote: "This making and exchanging of photographs is a species of Idolatry. Satan is doing all he can to eclipse heaven from our view. Let us not help him by making picture-idols. We need to reach a higher standard than these human faces suggest. The Lord says, 'Thou shall have no other Gods before me." Ellen White, Messages to Young People, p. 316 Quote: "As I visit the homes of our people and our schools, I see that all the available space on tables, what-nots, and mantlepieces is filled up with photographs. On the right hand and on the left are seen the pictures of human faces. God desires this order of things to be changed. Were Christ on earth, He would say, 'Take these things hence.' I have been instructed that these pictures are so many idols, taking up the time and thought which should sacredly devoted to God." Ellen White, Messages to Young People, p. 316. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Time and place, Redwood, Time and place.. You seem to enjoy making her look stupid, why do you do that? Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Stan. Don't mean to do that at all. That is not my intention. I sure hope that quoting her does not do that. She means a great deal to me and I am closer to God because of her. I will point out that the way WE use her is "stupid" to use your word. That is my point. Think deeper. And then REPEAT. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Like when you said she said "beans were poison" that is all you said.. Someone filled it in where is said it was poison to her.. The post indicated as if she was telling that to everyone.. That kind of stuff irritates many, there is no need for that. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeanMarie Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I agree with Stan. Ellen White deserves a bit more respect than what you are pulling out of your hat. I know of a forum that would love your expertise in stupidity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Stan ... lets be fair. I did not say they were poison for every one. She said they were poison for her. They could be for others if they were for her. She said they were poison. Whether they are poison for just her or for anyone else ... I did not address. My post was truthful. But if anyone wants to question it ... they can for sure look it up. I would not base my belief on anything anybody said here or quoted here. I would look it up and question it for myself. As far as it upsetting people. That is the nature of a forum where people express ideas and personal beliefs. It goes with the territory. Some will find what another believes as upsetting. But truth will withstand the questions as fccool has brought out in this thread. We should never fear questions. What we should fear is the lack of discussions and questions. What we also don't need on a forum is to think we know the other's intentions. It can be difficult to understand one another on cyberspace. I hope you will give me the benefit of the doubt. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 I can not find that quote... but it gave the general idea that they were poison to everyone... Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Here it is.. The question I have, is what do you think those visiting would think if EGW? I had uploaded this a few minutes ago, then realized it revealed your IP, so I took it down and blocked it out, then put this back up. it was only up for seconds before I saw that. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 The general idea? I can't stop what people will infer from a quote. But in no way did I say it was for everyone but it could be for some. Not sure I see the big deal. One , Some , ALL ? However ... If I gave the "impression" somehow that it was poison for ALL ... then I apologize. Can we end this chapter? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 #147380 - 12/14/07 04:15 AM Re: One of the best foods... [Re: Stan Jensen] Redwood Redwood Swiss n Swedish American Registered: 12/09/06 Posts: 4531 Loc: A citizen of Heaven Originally Posted By: Stan JensenFor 'us' is black beans.... Quote:"beans are poison" C D 491 _________________________ Love Won Another You bet it does. REDWOOD Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Here it is.. The question I have, is what do you think those visiting would think if EGW? I had uploaded this a few minutes ago, then realized it revealed your IP, so I took it down and blocked it out, then put this back up. it was only up for seconds before I saw that. As you can see ... I did not indicate to how many it might be poison. They WERE poison. TO HER. I have apologized if this was confusing. What more can I do? Again ... can we end this chapter. This is extremely old news. If you have an issue with me in the future ... you can always bring it up in a more timely manner. Again ... I apologize if this gave the wrong impression to anyone. I would not want anyone to have that impression. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 ? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Time and place, Redwood, Time and place.. You seem to enjoy making her look stupid, why do you do that? Rather succint question, one that has occured to me as well. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Very typical Olger. You have to get in the last dig don't ya. OK. You got your dig. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted February 10, 2008 Author Share Posted February 10, 2008 I don't have any problem with E G White. As I pointed out before, many of her writings has been of a great insight into many practical things. Some of these are of questionable nature, but that's the point. Do we consider her writings infallible? That's the big question... and many do consider these to be such. For such people admitting that she indeed made some misstatements and errors is to denounce adventism. I think we should know better than that. Prophet's words are of great help when they come directly from God. Some of mrs. White's work was her opinion on things, and I don't think we should be afraid of this fact. It is not all or nothing. Even Paul wrote: 5Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy. 26Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for you to remain as you are. 27Are you married? Do not seek a divorce. Are you unmarried? Do not look for a wife. 28But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this. Paul is not ashamed to specify his educated opinion in certain issues. I believe that E G White was giving many of her own educated opinions which could be right for the times that she was living in, yet do not apply today. Some do not apply at all because of her misunderstanding of certain things. So we have to be honest enough with ourselves and the people who are joining the church to educated them of these issues and not try to cover up for things when some Baptist pastor knocks on their door with "False Prophets" paper in his hands. Truth is that almost all Biblical prophets did commit mistakes. They did have wrong opinions about certain issues. They probably wrote many things that did not make it into Bible for that reason. So the issue here is not attack Mrs. White over her inconsistency with her own teachings ( Jewelry and Health ), but to realize that she was just as much human as you and I. Although she did not admit making scriptural mistakes... she did make some and it is known to be so as even her husband concerned with other people influencing her writings. So that issue aside, I'd like to conclude with a quote from a respectable member of our local church which I found quite disturbing. I am paraphrasing, but he said something along the lines of: " The people who ever question veracity of E G White's writings should be revoked their membership with the church. Without her we would not have our church at all. It is due to her the Adventist church exists today." And I found it very sad because if I was a visitor right there and right then, I would stand up and walk away and never come back... and I would make sure that my friends and family know what that man said and would not ever associate with anything labeled Adventist. But I know better than pinning opinion of the church on that man, as I know he did not realize what he said. And unfortunatly many don't... and I think that the reason that Redwood gets really worked up over this issue. Because in many churches it is an issue, and it is not being addressed. It's just being covered up and reworked to make it look better, but the rust is still showing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 10, 2008 Share Posted February 10, 2008 Right On You sure laid it on the line. I agree with all you have said. The trouble is that some are concerned with what someone might think if they read three little words that are not understood. Well ... what must they think? If we have to guard this forum with an army to prevent anyone from seeing something they might not understand ... well we can just all pack our bags. There are opinions and wild ideas expressed here each and every day. It IS a FORUM. I wouldn't believe ANYTHING that I saw on here unless I checked it out. And if someone does believe what they read ... they are not going to be successful Christians. That is for sure. WE are to study for ourselves ... not just be blind followers of one person. Questions are needed. If we don't answer them ... we will find that we become so shocked and overwhelmed when they do come to us that we just plain give up. Again thank you for clearly articulating the issue. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 There are some people who quote EGW as an unquestionable authority for their own beliefs. There are some people who quote EGW to discredit her and by implication discredit the SDA church. And there are some people who quote snippets of EGW in such a way that it appears they are trying to make her look ridiculous. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 I think the latter (group #3), as I've pointed out before, is an act of desperation to disprove the belief of the former (group #1...), a belief which is equally ridiculous. Although I don't think either action is justifiable, but I understand where group #3 is coming from... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 There are some people who quote EGW as an unquestionable authority for their own beliefs. There are some people who quote EGW to discredit her and by implication discredit the SDA church. And there are some people who quote snippets of EGW in such a way that it appears they are trying to make her look ridiculous. Graeme And then there are others, like myself, who ignore EGW quotes and wonder aloud why people insist on bringing her up, just to see the shallowness of their personal theology....The hope of that is six monthes from now, when they are bored, and wonder thru thier threads here, that they see thier words in a new light..... of course, these are odds of perpetuating the low temperature of h20 in an extreme high temperature enviroment... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted February 12, 2008 Author Share Posted February 12, 2008 The question discussed is not so much about EG White herself, but our mission of the church to spread the Gospel and other people who take every word she wrote as truth who are stumbling block to the people who are coming into the church. Those people who see no problems with claim that Bible is infallible, yet can see through inconsistencies in some and many of E G White's claims when a Baptist minister marches through their door with False Prophets dissertation he defended in DTS. Those people then turn around and leave because they were felt like they were suckered into a belief and kept in the dark about the real position of the individual church officials on this issue which goes somewhat beyond the: 18. The Gift of Prophecy: One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.) The reason why people may think it's a big deal, because the position of these officials that ALL of the EG White's writings are equally inspired by God on the same level the Bible is inspired (as there are no levels in inspiration)... IS a problematic one and we need to tell people the truth about it and not let them find it out from a third hand source and thus feel cheated as this belief does border on that of a cult... as we have an infallible interpreter of what we should believe then. Those are some valid questions that people are asking and we should not brush these off "as shallow". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I think EGW can stand on her own two feet. The good can be shown to be good. The bad will be shown to be bad. The only ones who will have an issue with that are the ones that think ALL of her is inspired and we need to take heed . My motto ... IN with the good. OUT with the bad. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeriAnne Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 As I grew up my beliefs were really a melting pot of EG White writings and scripture! I could seldom sort out what beliefs came from where!! I remember feeling really condemned and hopeless when reading many of the compilations of White writings but when I went back to the original writings found them more balanced and appropriate. It didn't take me long to realize that people had pretty much turned the blessing that she was meant to be into a curse by their use of her writings and the mutilation of them. In the process of the paradigm shift that came with the realization of the personal abuses done to me in the name of God and the church, I became accutely aware of the fact that I could not separate a Biblical concept from an EG White one! And that placed me in a VERY disingenuous place when talking with other christians about my faith and my relationship with God! It became an absolute necessity to know where I got the "authority" for my beliefs. The process of sorting it out was one of wonderful growth and enlightenment! Even though I am no longer a member of the SDA church I have a keen appreciation for the writings of this wonderful woman and can understand the duress she came under in trying to share what she felt called to share with a church who really didn't want to hear it! But I am no longer confused about what scripture teaches versa what are her inspiring words! Often she complements scripture but now I know what IS the scripture and what is the addendum! If we could do away with the compilations of disjointed paragraphs from her original writings and read the original works in their context and entirety we would see the consistency and the principles that were being applied in specific situations. She was a writer in a specific place and time. We give the Old Testament Prophets their historical context! We should do the same for her! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 JerriAnn... I really like your cat! It's cute. I appreciate your honesty too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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