Perfect Obedience

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

The words, sinneth not, mean that whoever abides in Christ does not practice sin.

1:9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2:1. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

5:16. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

17. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

[Woody]

Well John317 .... I am still waiting.

I expect you to show me where I used the words that I ...

Quote:

have no intention of stopping the practicing of willful sin.

If I ever used the words "no intentions" then I will agree to apologize to you. But this is a repeated attempt to falsely portray my views. It is a lie. These lies must stop and apologizes made. One or the other needs to apologize.

I have stated that I will willfully sin until the day I die. That is fact and it is fact for all of us as I have stated.

I've explained this and you have heard it. But you want to present lies and portray me in the wrong light ... so this is what I get.

But let me explain it to you as clearly as I can.

One one side we have all the power needed to fully understand and obey God.

On the other side we have sin.

You and I ... "willfully" choose sin during our entire life. We also choose the power at times all through our life.

However .... it is not mine .... and it is not your intention to choose sin. But we willfully do it. That which I don't want to do ... that I do.

I have the intention of stopping the practicing of willful sin. And I will stop some of it. But I will also continue to sin until I die. And in my view .... ALL sin is willful ... for there is means of not sinning if I choose it. There is no excuse for sin as Ellen White puts it. I can give you the quote if you want it. But there is no one forcing you to sin. You sin on your own free will. It is totaly stubborness of the will because it is clearly not necessary since God's power IS available to us.

To truly know God is to NOT sin.

But to say that I have no intention of stopping the practicing of willful sin is an outrage and something that I have never said. So, if you can find a quote with the word "intention" used this way ... then I will apologize to you.

But put up or I will have to ask ADMIN to delete this outrageous post of yours.

Just for you ...

Quote:

"There is no excuse for sin." 4 T 623

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Robert, in order to show that evidence supports you, you really need to respond to the the specific points that Gerry and I have brought up which seem to show clearly that the man of Romans 7 is not in Christ.

I have done this time and time again and you reject it. But, it doesn't matter because again we have Romans 8:1

You haven't yet dealt directly with the following points:

Is the man of Romans 7 led by the Spirit? No. ( Compare Rom. 7 with Romans 8: 12-14. Notice that the Spirit is not mentioned in Romans 7: 14-25. See also Romans 8: 9: "If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.")

Is he enslaved to sin? Yes. (Compare Rom. 7: 14, 15, 19 with 6: 17 & 18.)

Is he indwelt by the Spirit? No. (Compare Romans 7 with 1 John 3: 9 & Rom. 8:9.)

Does he have Jesus Christ in his life? No. Jesus is not mentioned until v. 25.

Is Christ abiding in him? No. (Compare Romans 7: 14-24 with 1 John 5: 11, 12, 20.)

In your view, is a person in a saved condition

(1) Even though Christ is not abiding in Him?

(2) Even though he is not abiding in Christ?

(3) Even though he is practicing evil, or sin?

(4) Even though he is living according to the flesh?

(5) Even though he is not led by the Spirit?

(6) Even though he is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

(7) Even though he is a slave to sin and free in regard to righteousness?

(8) And even though he does not have a faith-based relationship with Christ?

Do you believe the Bible teaches such a person is in a saved condition?

[Guest truthseeker007]

Pff tricky subject... Ok let s consider some of you knew exactly how somebody will be saved, would that change the way in which you live? If so, then you are not genuine because your intentions are self-centred in the first place and therefore does not come from the heart. So i think it is better to give our hearts to the Lord to the best of our consciounce and ability. God doesn t expect us to be perfect in all truths, this would be impossible for every person. If so, the churches founded by Luther etc. would all be useless because they are far from perfect. What i do know is this, it is foolish to try to enforce high standards of living to others if you cannot achieve this yourself, because the standards whereby you judge, you shall be judged also. Personally i wish everybody to get into heaven, but realise that that would be impossible because it is wrong to accept sin into heaven. The central theme should not be some sentences, but the way in which we have learned to let our own egoos be destroyed. In order for a person to be acceptable in paradise i think it is important that we become like children, open to learn and without egoos. I think that these characteristics are the most important. And if anyone still sins after he gave his heart to the lord, Jesus will forgive him and we all need forgiveness.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

The issue isn't perfection...it's honesty. If I am a sinner I will acknowledge known sin. If not I am stating that I am sinless. Hence what really eventually causes me to be lost is self-righteousness...unbelief.

Of what good is honesty if I am only honest enough to acknowledge that I cheat on my wife, on Uncle Sam, on God, but do nothing to abandon a dishonest life?

Gerry

Let's not just stop there, Gerry!

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.”

And the New Covenant? What does it say? Disobey and live?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

Robert, in order to show that evidence supports you, you really need to respond to the the specific points that Gerry and I have brought up which seem to show clearly that the man of Romans 7 is not in Christ.

I have done this time and time again and you reject it. But, it doesn't matter because again we have Romans 8:1

Quote:

You quote Romans 8: 1 as if it proves that he is justified and saved, but he is not there yet.

Let me help you again:

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [why?] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Sooooooooooo, if he had already been delivered, and already had assurance of salvation, WHY IS HE CRYING OUT FOR DELIVERANCE?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

It's not obvious! You see God's judges the heart...men (like yourself) judges the outside. Bottom line? Do not judge!

Hmmmmmmm. Talk about calling the kettle black! And you called me a liar, ignorant, legalist, and doing cover-up on my transgression. Hmmmmmmmmm.

Quote:

God says there's no condemnation to the one who hasn't learned to walk in the spirit.

So then, unbelievers who are not walking in the Spirit are not condemned? What kind of strange fire are you offering here, Rob?

A believer is either indwelt by the Holy Spirit or not. Paul clearly says that "...if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Rom 8:9 NKJ.

Quote:

If that isn't true then there's no hope for you John because you aren't perfect in performance yourself. So stop judging....Take Christ at his word:

That's why we need to examine ourselves whether we are indwelt and walking with the Spirit or not. It is the Spirit that gives life. Without Him we are spiritually dead!

"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." 8:11 NKJ

Quote:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

Soooooooo, who is not under condemnation? The one who is "in Christ", one who is not "carnally minded" but "spiritually minded", one in whom "the Spirit of God dwells." Rom 8:1-9

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

she didn't practice sin-- that is, she did not deliberately and continually go against what she knew to be right

This is simply not true. She did not live up the the health reform that she preached . Through out her life she struggled with what she described as a sinful health habit.

Did she willfully and deliberately chose to eat unhealthfully throughout her life?

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus [by faith is inferred].

What does John say?

1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

Okay...I'm lost. I sin...I fall short of God's glory. No heaven for me. I think I'll join you Holy Joes...become a member of the Holy Remnant Church...worship Ellen White....etc....Maybe then God will have mercy on me.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I have done this time and time again and you reject it. But, it doesn't matter because again we have Romans 8:1

Quote:

You quote Romans 8: 1 as if it proves that he is justified and saved, but he is not there yet.

Let me help you again:

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [why?'] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Sooooooooooo, if he had already been delivered, and already had assurance of salvation, WHY IS HE CRYING OUT FOR DELIVERANCE?

Gerry

"Who will set me free from the body of this death?"

You are going to die Gerry. The wages of sin is death. Your only hope is the resurrection! Paul wanted to be free from this body that's going to the grave. He cried out to be free of it. He will receive this life at the resurrection. That's his point.

[Robert]

Quote:

It's not obvious! You see God's judges the heart...men (like yourself) judges the outside. Bottom line? Do not judge!

Hmmmmmmm. Talk about calling the kettle black! And you called me a liar, ignorant, legalist, and doing cover-up on my transgression. Hmmmmmmmmm.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I have done this time and time again and you reject it. But, it doesn't matter because again we have Romans 8:1

Quote:

You quote Romans 8: 1 as if it proves that he is justified and saved, but he is not there yet.

Let me help you again:

Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! ....There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [why?'] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.

Sooooooooooo, if he had already been delivered, and already had assurance of salvation, WHY IS HE CRYING OUT FOR DELIVERANCE?

Gerry

Gerry. You are not reading Paul. Look at his quotes again:

Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Notice he gives thanks to God, through Jesus OUR Lord. The next time he uses "me" is in Romans 8:1-2

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."

[Gerr]

Quote:

The man of Rom 7 is not carnally minded.

May I suggest you put on a magnifying glass and read Rom 7:14?

Her is what it says about the man of Rom 7:

"For we know that the law is spiritual, BUT I AM CARNAL, SOLD UNDER SIN."

Quote:

It is very clear that the principle of God's law (agape) has been written into his heart. See Romans 7:22

It is very clear to me that he has head knowledge but it has not yet affected his life. He is like the foolish man described by Jesus in Mt 7:26. "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand..."

Quote:

The problem is that he hasn't learned to let the Spirit tackle the flesh. That's all. Doesn't mean that he's not saved!

Rob

He is not saved! That's why he needs DELIVERANCE, 7:24. How could he be saved if, #1. he is CARNAL, sold under sin? #2. slave to sin, doing what sin tells him to do? 7:15-19 #3 indwelt by sin and not the Spirit, 7:20

Gerry

[Robert]

He is not saved! That's why he needs DELIVERANCE, 7:24.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Sooooooooooo, if he had already been delivered, and already had assurance of salvation, WHY IS HE CRYING OUT FOR DELIVERANCE?

Gerry

Gerry. You are not reading Paul. Look at his quotes again:

I don't know who is not doing the reading. Here is your quote of his condition:

Quote:

Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Notice that he calls himself, "wretched," "miserable" - NCV, NLT, "unhappy" - GNT.

Webster on "wretched" - 1. deeply afflicted, dejected, or distressed in body or mind. 2. extremely or deplorably bad or distressing 3. being or appearing mean, miserable, or contemptible, very poor in quality or ability.

That word "wretched" is the same word used to describe the condition of the Laodiceans. If that is the condition of saved individuals, then heaven is no help whatsoever! The fact is, unless the "wretched" repent, the threat is that they will be vomited/spewed out of His mouth!

Quote:

Notice he gives thanks to God, through Jesus OUR Lord. The next time he uses "me" is in Romans 8:1-2

Yes, he gives thanks AFTER his deliverance!!!

Gerry

[Robert]

That word "wretched" is the same word used to describe the condition of the Laodiceans.

Look at self-righteous Job before God laid him low. Then look at him after he realized that all his righteousness was in fact self-righteousness:

Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee?

And Paul, after conversion, said the following when writing to Timothy:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

"Of whom I am chief" is in the present continuous tense!

So while we do grow in grace, we are still wretched in the eyes of God's law because none are measuring up!

I'm glad that God's grace can save wretched sinners like me. The problem is some do not realize their wretchedness. To these God will try to open their eyes...even to the extent that Job had to go through. Learn the easy way!

[Planey]

...worship Ellen White....

...worship Ellen White...

...worship Jack Sequeira...

...where's the difference, really?...

Graeme

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

...worship Ellen White....

...worship Ellen White...

...worship Jack Sequeira...

...where's the difference, really?...

Graeme

You know very well that Traditional SDA do that....They quote and read Ellen more than Jesus Himself. Shall I call her Pope Ellen?

[Planey]

You know very well that Traditional SDA do that....They quote and read Ellen more than Jesus Himself. Shall I call her Pope Ellen?

My point was:

For "Traditional SDA" substitute "R____t"

For "Ellen" substitute "Jack"

For "her" substitute "him"

And your statement still is just as applicable.

Stop judging people by your standards.

The Bible says you will be judged by the same standards you use to judge others.

Just put your point of view across without continually criticising and judging others.

Graeme

[Robert]

Stop judging people by your standards.

I'm not judging, I am simply giving legalists what they deserve - law, law and more law! They are the ones who say your lost unless you keep all the rules I'm keeping. Hypocrites!

And BTW, stop telling me what to do!

[Gregory Matthews]

Folks: Please play nice.

Quote:

I said you are either a liar or ignorant. Get your facts straight.

The above is not playing nice.

Quote:

I'm not judging, I am simply giving legalists what they deserve - law, law and more law! They are the ones who say your lost unless you keep all the rules I'm keeping. Hypocrites!

This forum is not designed for one of the members to give others what they deserve. It is not designed to tell another that one is "lost," or a "hypocrite."

Differences of opinon are clearly allowed. No one person has a monopoly on all truth in any area. Come on, discuss those differences in a manner that is respectful. To do otherwise is generally going to be harmful to the position that one is presenting.

[Woody]

Quote:

Did she willfully and deliberately chose to eat unhealthfully throughout her life?

Anyone who has studied Ellen White would clearly know the answer is YES. That is unless you consider having an addiction to meat an excuse. For this is how she described it.

[Woody]

Quote:

You see you Holy Joes expect everyone to perform as you do. That's the problem...you should look at your own sins instead of beating everyone else over the head with "the little red books" or your brand of legalism

Yes, Robert. I agree with you on this one. This is exactly what some are doing. They are sly though. They require perfection and hit others over the head with it ... but don't look or require it for themselves. In fact they even deny that they are legalists while they are demanding perfection. What a group of people. They act like 'WHO US?'. Oh Yeah.

The key point here like you said ... Look are your own sins instead of hitting others over the head. Exactly Robert. I like what you have said. It is good for US to look at ourselves ... not others. I've never found that going around calling people of the Devil because they don't live up to ones standard .... to be a very effective tool for the Gospel.

But, those conservatives are the loudest when it comes to condemning others' behaviour. I've seen these groups of people in many churches and it does great damage.

I ususally find that these kinds of people have some type of sin (such as homosexuality or maritial infidelity) either in the present or the past or both ... that they feel guilt from and thus want to cover it up with a perfection theology. Do you find this also?

[olger]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Doesn't matter for the man of Romans 7 is in a saved condition. Read Romans 8:1.

One other thing...he is not trying to live the good life to be saved. A legalist does that.[/quote']

Did Paul live a good life to be saved? Did Peter? Did James or John? Why did they live the good life? Out of love for Christ, out of their gratitude for what God did for them in sending Jesus. Under those conditions, when they realized the extent of God's amazing love and sacrifice, what else could they do but obey?

But now let's take a close look at Romans 7.

Is the man of Romans 7 led by the Spirit? No. ( Compare Rom. 7 with Romans 8: 12-14. Notice that the Spirit is not mentioned in Romans 7: 14-25. See also Romans 8: 9: "If anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.")

Is he enslaved to sin? Yes. (Compare Rom. 7: 14, 15, 19 with 6: 17 & 18.)

Is he indwelt by the Spirit? No. (Compare Romans 7 with 1 John 3: 9 & Rom. 8:9.)

Does he have Jesus Christ in his life? No. Jesus is not mentioned until v. 25.

Is Christ abiding in him? No. (Compare Romans 7: 14-24 with 1 John 5: 11, 12, 20.)

Romans 8:1 is not a description of the man of Romans 7: 14-24. That man has not yet been set free from sin. He is still practicing evil (7: 19). He is still walking according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit.

Apply 1 John 3: 1-10 to the man of Romans 7. You will see that he has not been born of God. He is not abiding in Christ. He does not practice righteousness but by his own admission he practices evil. 1 John 3: 9 says plainly, "No one who is born of God practices sin." Therefore the man of Romans 7 cannot be one who has been born of God. He is a man under the conviction of the Spirit, but being under conviction is not the same as salvation. Salvation comes from God when we continue to put our complete trust in Jesus Christ. There is no evidence in Romans 7 that the man described there has put his trust in Christ. He doesn't see Christ as the solution to the sin problem until the very last verse in that chapter. It's this faith in Christ that brings justification and freedom from the law of sin and of death (8:1, 2). But that hasn't yet happened in Romans 7: 14-24.

In the Fall of 2007, I got up early each morning and studied the bible. I spent almost a month on the book of Romans. I wasn't sure if the guy in chapter 7 was converted or not, I previously felt that there was a case both ways.

On the third week, all of a sudden it hit me one morning, Paul is describing life without the Holy Spirit in chapter 7. Here is my note from 11-17-07

"The power of Jesus' grace lies in the fact that he took on Himself sinful nature and walked after the spirit.. Therefore, as Heb. 2:18 states Jesus can now be strength for His people who lean on Him for help. This chapter provides the answer to the dilemma expressed in chapter 7. The solution is the Spirit of God. Chapter 8 could well be named the Spirit Chapter."

oG

[John317]

Excellent insight into Romans 6-8, Olger. I came to the same conclusion, and then I read some other Bible students who concluded similarly about Romans 7. For instance, John Stott's highly regarded commentary on Romans. Also, Thomas Davis' book on the subject. I think this view makes the most sense when you look at the chapter carefully and compare it with everything the New Testament says on the subject.