No more God Bless America?

[Woody]

Why would Obama go to listen to a Pastor for 20 years ... who displays such wild views as saying that Clinton doesn't know about America because she hasn't been called a Nig... and he said the word.

And then he says that Blacks should not sing 'God Bless America' but instead they should say ... 'God Damn America'.

He then blames America for 9/11 . Calling the US a KKK and the number one killer in the world and saying the US supports zionism shamelessly and that Israel is a terrorist state.

Why would you have this hate filled pastor marry you and baptize your children? Why would you listen to such hate?

I am confused. According to Fox News ... this man is part of the Obama campaign on an advisory board position.

What would happen if a person on the McCain side had said anything similar in racial tone to this? I can only imagine. Where is the outrage?

Obama named his auto-biography book after a sermon of this guy's. It is worrisome to think of the influence of this guy on Obama.

If Ferraro had to resign .... WHY would this pastor not be removed from the Obama campaign?

[John317]

Excellent question. Seems to me the Democrats may well have some serious trouble getting this man into the White House if all this is true and the American people know it. It doesn't make sense.

If it is true-- and I have seen evidence that it is-- I hope McCain has the guts bring it up in debates and I would hope the NY Times will do a front page article on it. (I know-- fat chance of the NYT doing that, but hope springs eternal!)

[John317]

Why would Obama go to listen to a Pastor for 20 years....

I just saw on the news this pastor saying in the pulpit that the US government invented the HIV virus to kill blacks. And Obama has been going to hear this pastor for 20 years. Now Obama wants to dissociate himself from the pastor's teachings.

My question is how could he sit in this pastor's church week after week and year after year, for 20 years, and listen to him saying these things? The next question, does Obama have proof that he ever denounced the pastor's remarks before now? It looks to me as though Obama must be in agreement with him or he would not be going to his church all these years. The pastor's words are not incidental but are directly connected with his preaching and teaching. I don't see how Obama can escape being badly injured politically by this.

I hope all the truth about him comes out before the Democrats nominate him. The American people need to know who they are electing as their President. It is all very, very relevant.

[Liz]

You know, I had such high hopes for Obama, but no more. To me, this is inexcusable (sp?). Even if you don't believe what this *Pastor* is saying, after 20 years of listening to it, you are going to "think" that way. <Deep heavy sigh>

Back to the drawing board for me.

[fccool]

If Ferraro had to resign .... WHY would this pastor not be removed from the Obama campaign?

I think we have to respect individual choices. That's what democratic process is all about. You vote for a person based on his/her choices and views. Forcing the political leaders to be aligned with public views before they have even been elected... I think is unreasonable.

Thinking about our views on things to come, people don't think that we have it all together either. We believe that Papacy is the Antichrist, and that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast that will be enforced. It sounded outrageous to me too when I heard this, but closer examination made me to believe so too. We need to understand specific reasons behind individuals saying "crazy" things instead of using the handpicked sound bites in "he said" "she said" mud slinging. You have to understand the context in which those things were uttered.

Blacks still has not recovered from the injustice served by the society not so long ago. Slavery in US was quite different from slavery in Russia for example, because it was a racial slavery. It was not so long ago that racial discrimination was a "norm". Not even half of the century. These people still remember what it was like to be denied things because they were black. It leaves much of bitterness in their lives. And it is understandable. Clinton grew up in upper class white family, and she does not know what's it like. Many politicians don't, because there's a disconnect between the reality and what they see the world as. Many of them has not experised these social extremes. So they don't see these as problem, or at least as a serious problem.

So when Bush is talking about the horrors of war... he has not clue about horrors of war. He has never been in combat. When he is talking about poverty... he has no clue what's it like to be poor, as everything was handed to him from very early age. When he is talking about peace process in the Israel/Palestine. He has not lived in Palestine with shortage of food and water, and people not allowed to travel freely and have to give birth at the checkpoints not reaching the hospitals. He did not have relatives killed by suicide bomber, and never experienced his home being bulldozed or bombed. It's not just Bush, but that's the case for many of us. You don't know what's it like and how horrible that "good for you" is, until you have experienced it first hand. That's why it's important to put yourself in other people's shoes, and not to jump to rush conclusions.

[Bravus]

Links and references please

[John317]

I agree. When he won the first caucus and I saw him speak, he had me thinking that I could go back to voting Democratic, despite not agreeing with him on everything. He really is a very very attractive, wonderful speaker. His appeal to idealism is great, too, but I fear it is all a show.

[Bravus]

http://mediamatters.org/items/200703220005

[John317]

What you say contains much truth but I am having a hard time seeing exactly how it has to do with the subject of the thread.

We do respect individual choices, but at the same time a person running for the office of the president where he will represent all Americans and where he will be trusted to represent Americans to other nations-- and where he will have incredible power over our lives, for good or ill-- must undergo careful scrutiny by the people, and they have a right to know everything about the candidate so that they can make the best possible decision. It behooves us to elect the best man we can for the job, one who loves the United States and will protect and defend the constitution against all its enemies. But what happens if that president is not of a frame of mind to do that? What if he agrees with our enemies that America is a bad and evil country, which is the belief of the pastor we are talking about?

Remember that Obama's wife even said a few weeks ago that for the first time she is proud of her country. Is it possible that Obama agrees and shares her sentiments also? It seems like there is a pattern here, and I am afraid of what I am beginning to pick up. He refuses to wear an American flag and he refuses to pledge allegiance to the American flag. I think these things are peculiar, to say the least, in a candidate for the US presidency.

[Bravus]

Most of the Republican candidates also do not wear flag pins - and those who do are now out of the race. McCain doesn't. Interesting how it's only Obama's choice not to wear one that gets much attention.

It is possible to love your country yet deplore its actions - and to want to change your country for the better. In fact, I'd argue that that's more a love of country than a 'my country right or wrong' attitude.

America *has* acted as a bully internationally. Who is going to do more to repair America's image in the world? Someone who acknowledges that and strives to change it, or someone who sings 'bomb bomb Iran'?

[John317]

I read the link, and it's to know things like that, Bravus. But I saw and heard the pastor with my eyes and ears today say (1) "It's not 'God bless America' but 'God damn the US'; and that the US government invented the HIV virus to killed blacks.

Now I have heard this kind of idea and language before. (Long ago I spent a number of years in a radical leftist organization and I admired Malcolm X and studied tapes of all Malcolm's talks and debates.) The question is, since Obama his running for the American presidency, don't the American people have a right to know the truth about the company Obama keeps and the kind of preacher he likes to listen to? Might this information give us some kind of insight into the man and his ideas? What would we think of McCain if he praises white supremacy leaders and goes to a church for the last 20 years where the pastor preaches sermons about the US being an evil nation, etc.?

[fccool]

Yes, I don't doubt that. What I doubt that his views would change if he is forced to choose between his belief and his campaign illusion. In many ways these are illusions because he is politician first, and that's what politicians do... they get elected by running a campaign and polls. Not to say that all of them are dishonest or lacking integrity, but honesty does not get you elected either. Their views are carefully crafted and they are told what not to say and what not to do based on prevailing public opinion.

My point is that even if he decided to abandon that preacher as a campaign adviser for political reasons, I don't think his views on subject would necessarily be changed. I don't know if he shares the same alleged sentiments, but its his business to do so. You can't really know the motivation of a person, and especially motivation of a politician. There are millions of overqualified presidential candidates in this country and all of them are sane enough not to run. They know that they probably stand no chance, because it takes more than qualification to become a president of the USA. This was more than a case with Ron Paul. He would be a very honest president, yet honesty requires to tell people what they don't want to hear at times.

As far as relating to the subject of the thread, all I'm trying to say is that we have to understand where people are coming from before condemning them based on sound bites. If Obama decides to stick with a person like that, that's his choice to do so... and your choice is either approve of it by voting, or to disapprove of it by not voting for him. But to say that someone must leave because he holds diffrent view of things is to shape the candidate to tell you what you want to hear. That's why we have discrepancies of promises and actions. Every broken promise is a lie to certain extend. For example... "read my lips... no new taxes" He new he was lying before he even said it. Either he was lying to himself, or to the people.

[Bravus]

McCain *does* have the endorsement of Hagee, an anti-Catholic bigot. But I agree with you that this is a relevant consideration.

But my pastor does not speak for me - in fact there are many things he and I disagree about. None of them at this stage are serious enough to make me change churches, but I'd hate to be held as though I believe everything he does. How about you?

[Woody]

Personally? If my pastor said just ONE of the many wild racist things that this jerk said .... I would be gone from his church. Why listen to a sermon with such hate?

Do you realize that these are not just his thoughts. They are what he preaches in his sermons. Why attend?

[John317]

Yes, but I am not at all talking about "my country, right or wrong." Nor am I talking about the simple fact that Obama doesn't want to wear flag on a lapel. There is a right way to oppose US policy. There's certainly nothing wrong with saying that he wants to bring troops home immediately or that he wants to talk with Iran. That's fine.

But this goes far beyond that. The fact that he would go for 20 years to this church and hear the pastor there talk the way he does shows that there is something wrong with his thinking. I wouldn't be a part of a church where the head pastor talks the way he does, and I have to question the reasoning of a Senator who has been in attendance and supporting it with his influence and money all these years, and is apparently only now disavowing the pastor's words.

[John317]

McCain *does* have the endorsement of Hagee, an anti-Catholic bigot. But I agree with you that this is a relevant consideration.

Anyone can endorse anyone, of course. I am not holding it against Obama that anyone endorses him. The American people will never hold the mere fact of someone's endorsement against a candidate for political office.

I actually agree with some of the things that Hagee says about prophetic interpretation, but that should never be a part of a campaign, because all are equally American citizens, no matter what church we belong to, and so I agree with McCain in his repudiation of Hagee's teachings. It's worthy of notice that McCain did not wait to repudiate what Hagee said about Catholics but did so immediately after being made aware of Hagee's views.

Quote:

But my pastor does not speak for me - in fact there are many things he and I disagree about. None of them at this stage are serious enough to make me change churches, but I'd hate to be held as though I believe everything he does. How about you?

This is true, but would you continue to sit in his church and support him for years if he was teaching or preaching like the pastor is where Obama goes to church?

I definitely wouldn't. I wouldn't even sit in it and listen to that for one week-end, let alone for 20 years.

[Woody]

Quote:

I definitely wouldn't. I wouldn't even sit in it and listen to that for one week-end, let alone for 20 years

Would you have this Pastor baptize your children and marry you and your wife?

[fccool]

I definitely wouldn't. I wouldn't even sit in it and listen to that for one week-end, let alone for 20 years.

Let us remember that you are saying this with your present knowledge and understanding of things. If you grew up in diffrent environment, you could potentially be that pastor . That's why it is important to understand why people say certain things. they do have reasons for believing these, whether these are correct or not. There should be intelligent discussion to resolve these issues, and such discussions today are virtually non-existent as we are living in bread and circus society. Preachers screaming their understanding of things from pulpits is the opposite of discussion.

[Amelia]

Sen. Obama condemns his pastor's comments

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080314/NEWS15/80314063

Obama Disagrees With Pastor's 'God Damn America' Sermon

Obama on His Pastor: 'I Profoundly Disagree With Some of These Statements'

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4452990&page=1

The following statement was released by the Barack Obama campaign Friday in response to criticism over sermons delivered by his pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr.:

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/03/14/...ept-11-attacks/

Quote:

Mission Statement: What Trinity Is About

http://www.tucc.org/home.htm

Trinity United Church of Christ has been called by God to be a congregation that is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that does not apologize for its African roots! As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family. We, as a church family, acknowledge, that we will, building on this affirmation of "who we are" and "whose we are," call men, women, boys and girls to the liberating love of Jesus Christ, inviting them to become a part of the church universal, responding to Jesus’ command that we go into all the world and make disciples!

We are called out to be "a chosen people" that pays no attention to socio-economic or educational backgrounds. We are made up of the highly educated and the uneducated. Our congregation is a combination of the haves and the have-nots; the economically disadvantaged, the under-class, the unemployed and the employable.

The fortunate who are among us combine forces with the less fortunate to become agents of change for God who is not pleased with America’s economic mal-distribution!

W.E.B. DuBois indicated that the problem in the 20th century was going to be the problem of the color line. He was absolutely correct. Our job as servants of God is to address that problem and eradicate it in the name of Him who came for the whole world by calling all men, women, boys and girls to Christ.

[Woody]

The question remains ... Why didn't he condemn this type of preaching before this by his actions rather than cheap words.

Why does he and did he continue to attend and support the church for 20 years and include this man in his campaign?

[Dr. Shane]

The following statement was released by the Barack Obama campaign Friday in response to criticism over sermons delivered by his pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr.:

On My Faith and My Church

The pastor of my church, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who recently preached his last sermon and is in the process of retiring, has touched off a firestorm over the last few days. He’s drawn attention as the result of some inflammatory and appalling remarks he made about our country, our politics, and my political opponents.

Let me say at the outset that I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it’s on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.

Because these particular statements by Rev. Wright are so contrary to my own life and beliefs, a number of people have legitimately raised questions about the nature of my relationship with Rev. Wright and my membership in the church. Let me therefore provide some context.

As I have written about in my books, I first joined Trinity United Church of Christ nearly twenty years ago. I knew Rev. Wright as someone who served this nation with honor as a United States Marine, as a respected biblical scholar, and as someone who taught or lectured at seminaries across the country, from Union Theological Seminary to the University of Chicago. He also led a diverse congregation that was and still is a pillar of the South Side and the entire city of Chicago. It’s a congregation that does not merely preach social justice but acts it out each day, through ministries ranging from housing the homeless to reaching out to those with HIV/AIDS.

Most importantly, Rev. Wright preached the gospel of Jesus, a gospel on which I base my life. In other words, he has never been my political advisor; he’s been my pastor. And the sermons I heard him preach always related to our obligation to love God and one another, to work on behalf of the poor, and to seek justice at every turn.

The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments. But because Rev. Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were baptized, I did not think it appropriate to leave the church.

Let me repeat what I’ve said earlier. All of the statements that have been the subject of controversy are ones that I vehemently condemn. They in no way reflect my attitudes and directly contradict my profound love for this country.

With Rev. Wright’s retirement and the ascension of my new pastor, Rev. Otis Moss, III, Michelle and I look forward to continuing a relationship with a church that has done so much good. And while Rev. Wright’s statements have pained and angered me, I believe that Americans will judge me not on the basis of what someone else said, but on the basis of who I am and what I believe in; on my values, judgment and experience to be President of the United States.

[Woody]

I do question his judgment.

[Dr. Shane]

We will see how it works out. I have listened to a lot of Pat Robertson on the 700 Club and have enjoyed a lot of what he has taught. Yet Pat Robertson has made some terrible political statements that I have found horrendous. So I can see how Obama could belong to a church and not agree with the pastor politically. That said, I don't think most Americans will be able to understand.

[fccool]

Hmm... This is the type of things that I think people having itching ears rather than taking things as they are being considered in the context of the topic and checking the veracity of the statements based on the facts. This is pretty strong sermon and I've heard it somewhere else too. Just some of the statements handpicked by FOX. I understand that this is a strong language, but we have much stronger language by prophets in the Bible at times. I don't support strong language, but it has its place and time.

No! No No!

“God damn America … for killing innocent people.

Has America as a nation killed innocent people? I think any country has.

“God damn America for threatening citizens as less than humans.

Has America as a nation threatened citizens as less than humans? I think many countries have.

“God damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and supreme.”

Do we see that happening today? I think we do to a certain extend as we decide what's best for people of other nations.

...Wright can also be seen questioning America’s role in the spreading of the HIV virus that leads to AIDS...

http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read.html?id=5420

Would governments ever do these kinds of things... would our government do these kinds of things?

http://www.commondreams.org/views/072100-106.htm

In another speech, made in the days after 9/11, he suggested that American foreign policy invited the terror attacks.

...

Here's an excerpt from article who is Bin Laden, by BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/155236.stm

Sponsored by US and Pakistan

His power is founded on a personal fortune earned by his family's construction business in Saudi Arabia.

Born in Saudi Arabia to a Yemeni family, Bin Laden left Saudi Arabia in 1979 to fight against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

The Afghan jihad was backed with American dollars and had the blessing of the governments of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan.

He received security training from the CIA itself, according to Middle Eastern analyst Hazhir Teimourian.

While in Afghanistan, he founded the Maktab al-Khidimat (MAK), which recruited fighters from around the world and imported equipment to aid the Afghan resistance against the Soviet army.

Egyptians, Lebanese, Turks and others - numbering thousands in Bin Laden's estimate - joined their Afghan Muslim brothers in the struggle against an ideology that spurned religion.

This is a well known fact around the world. But it's up to you to decide if that could be considered a participation in events that lead up to 9/11. Some people believe that that US created a monster that turn around and bit it, some people tend to think that Afgan fighters operated independently. Either way, US at least funded part of the resistance which later became Al Qaida.

“We bombed Hiroshima. We bombed Nagasaki. And we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon and we never batted an eye,”

Once again, I don't see anything false about the statement, other than a tone of bitterness. To this day no public apology was made to the families of the civilians killed by atomic blasts, which were the only time in history atomic bomb was ever used on both military and civilian population unilaterally.

“We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because of stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own backyard. America is chickens coming home to roost.”

I partly disagree with this statement though, because both of these are very complex issues. But some Jewish citizens themselves see some actions of Israel against Palestinians as detestable. So it's nothing new and shocking here. Barak himself is a strong supporter of Israel, so I don't think he holds Israel in the wrong.

In these days of politically correct speech we see any strong statements as outrage, yet we need not forget to evaluate these statements for veracity. America is not a lamb that it's used to be and is well on the way of becoming a beast. While I don't think I would be going around screaming "God damn America", I think it would be naive to overlook some of the thing that going on in the world today.

[John317]

I definitely wouldn't. I wouldn't even sit in it and listen to that for one week-end, let alone for 20 years.

Let us remember that you are saying this with your present knowledge and understanding of things. If you grew up in diffrent environment, you could potentially be that pastor . That's why it is important to understand why people say certain things. they do have reasons for believing these, whether these are correct or not. There should be intelligent discussion to resolve these issues, and such discussions today are virtually non-existent as we are living in bread and circus society. Preachers screaming their understanding of things from pulpits is the opposite of discussion.

It's not as if I don't understand black history and the black experience in America. But the fact is that I haven't talked to any blacks about this that feel any different than I do about what this pastor is teaching. Blacks generally don't agree with that pastor, either. Not all blacks hate America or say "God damn America" or believe that the US government invented the HIV virus to kill blacks. Martin Luther King never said such words. He loved America.

The question is not whether that pastor has a right to preach or talk that way. The only two questions of importance as regards the pastor and his church is why Obama would want to go to a church which teaches and believes what that pastor is teaching, and whether America wants Obama to be its president.