No more God Bless America?

[Bravus]

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Many conservatives believe that the best way to help the poor is through education and not by giving them money or food, but by teaching them responsibility, honesty, self-discipline and hard work.

...and yet schools in poor districts are massively and chronically underfunded. I don't accuse conservatives in general of lacking compassion, but I do say that if you look at their actions and policy positions rather than their rhetoric, what they actually seem to favour is a permanently poor and unemployed underclass to ensure that there is not full employment and reduce pressure for wage growth. In other words, the economy trumps everything, and the economic requires cannon fodder.

On the minimum wage, the argument is always about whether it will reduce employment, but the welfare-to-work argument needs to be made: if the minimum wage is so low that welfare is preferable in terms of living standards, the incentive structure is all wrong.

See, I actually believe that the market can have a large and bening role in solving policy: but the will has to be there. At the moment the will, in practical terms, seems much more focused on perpetuating advantage, and therefore inevitably on perpetuating disadvantage.

[jasd]

>>You still haven't had a serious stab at describing an AmericanCentrism that is different from the status quo.<<

I fear to address the status quo as it may be universally ‘understood’ – uncertain as to what “the status quo” might imply, narrowly or otherwise. The issue addressed comprehensively would be Encyclopaedic, I fear; therefor, I proffer a definition of AmericanCentrism tandem the context from which it was drawn, and from one a little less far-ranging... That said,

following: the Jewish fortune cookie –

“Oedipus Schmoedipus! just love your mother.”

Likewise, my point when using 'AmericanCentrism' in its most succinct aspect, is – “Enough with this

hyphenated-bulldust! just love our country.”

>>How could a black president be elected under the system you seem to be envisaging?<<

More easily than the “system” currently in process (which seemed to have been working well in spite of the question of qualification - and now, of judgement).

>>Sure, it would be great if blacks voted on the issues rather than on race - but that would need to be balanced by all the whites doing the same. Will they?<<

Weren’t they, by and large? Surely ‘bama’s success cannot have been credited solely to one segment of our polity.

My primary brief, when using the term AmericanCentrism, is with the overtly ‘disaffected’ (and those who rationalize their disaffection) – those sans the ‘natural affinity’ for the land of their birth, which, for better or worse, nourishes them – pigmentation be dinked.

It is neither right nor left, nor does it subscribe to political gratuitousness – it is AmericanCentrism.

[jasd]

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Quote:John317

Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats

Thanks, for bringing to recollection that piece by Yeats; I’ve always thought it riveting – cleaving the marrow of the soul with anticipated dread.

“...

That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare ... And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?”

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

[jasd]

>>Keep posting this stuff.<<

Okay, it's good that you appreciate truths...; it's intrinsic to the sort of 'dialogue' being encouraged.

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Quote:jasd

nowadays, a fat person has a greater burden to bear than the emancipated.

The fat person is actively discriminated against in all walks and strata of American life - without the benefit of programs in place for those considered 'disadvantaged'. They have

very few lifelines to which to apply when needed.

[jasd]

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Quote:lazarus

I'm tired of the offensive rhetoric (noting that it did not come from you, John) which has no basis in fact and that is devoid of any attempt to understand.

I understand, exactly, how “tired” you might become with this or that..., I, also, am so tired of the constant complaints and excuses about this and that. Years ago,

there was, admittedly, reason for minorities to complain; however, considering all the advantages our society now provides – why in the world does it continue...?

There have been recent arrivals on our shores that have faced discrimination and abuse; yet, go on without muss and fuss – just working towards getting on with reality and overcoming – and they do (consider the Asians who face quotas in the California University system because they excel and are deserving of places set aside – as set asides).

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Quote:lazarus

I loved American movies and a bunch of other stuff but making people drink from different water fountains, go to separate schools, etc. was just plain sick to me.

I grew up several thousand miles away and felt this way. I shudder to think how I would feel if my father said son "we can't eat here because were black"

Instead of saying "get over it" the Christian response would be to seek to understand, listen, seek forgiveness and healing. [ed.jasd]

I agree. Segregation in America deserves to be loudly condemned for the hurt given and the hurt experienced. That said,

it is time to “get over it”! (we’re years past...)

Should the desired denouement to dialogue be “understanding” – it is necessary to leave r-e-s-e-n-t-m-e-n-t off the table (bring your bling but leave the junk at home). That [above] catalog of “listening, seeking, forgiving, and healing” – is a two-way street. I think the following is my own and original...:

“It takes two to Tango” ;-)

Sorry, I’m not the sort who appreciates nerf ball: men should hit the bone and not scratch like a feathered thing ... can you, not as a Xtian, but man to man, from extremely different backgrounds, as a minority, still love me? Should I be able to feel it?

[lazarus]

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there was, admittedly, reason for minorities to complain;

Complain!!! Thats why I said you should keep posting.

I complain in when my meal is served cold when it should be hot. I complain is when my car is not running well after its just been serviced. etc.

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however, considering all the advantages our society now provides – why in the world does it continue...?

There you go. Thats a good question to ask. It might begin the healing process to ask yourself and the black friends that you may have that question.(I'm sure you have some). I mean black friends.

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That said,

it is time to “get over it”! (we’re years past...)

It is precisely the above that will ensure that you will keep hearing what you hear. Perhaps for you it may be even louder than it actually is. In fact, at times the mind makes a good amplifier.

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(bring your bling but leave the junk at home)

keep it coming, son!

[Neil D]

jasd, your post is self evident that you just don't get it...

Neither you, nor John, nor Olger nor Shane....

I am sorry, but you guys just don't get it....You guys need to wake up black and live the life of a black man...at least for a month.....

......but I am afraid that it will tramatize you....

[olger]

Here's someone who gets it !!

"Proclamation of Amnesty and Pardon Granted to

All Persons of European Descent

Whereas, Europeans kept my forebears in bondage some three centuries toiling without pay,

Whereas, Europeans ignored the human rights pledges of the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution,

Whereas, the Emancipation Proclamation, the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments meant little more than empty words,

Therefore, Americans of European ancestry are guilty of great crimes against my ancestors and their progeny.

But, in the recognition Europeans themselves have been victims of various and sundry human rights violations to wit: the Norman Conquest, the Irish Potato Famine, Decline of the Hapsburg Dynasty, Napoleonic and Czarist adventurism, and gratuitous insults and speculations about the intelligence of Europeans of Polish descent,

I, Walter E. Williams, do declare full and general amnesty and pardon to all persons of European ancestry, for both their own grievances, and those of their forebears, against my people.

Therefore, from this day forward Americans of European ancestry can stand straight and proud knowing they are without guilt and thus obliged not to act like dang fools in their relationships with Americans of African ancestry."

Walter E. Williams, Gracious and Generous Grantor

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

there was, admittedly, reason for minorities to complain;

Quote:lazarus

Complain!!! Thats why I said you should keep posting

I complain in when my meal is served cold when it should be hot. I complain is when my car is not running well after its just been serviced. etc.

Umm, you’ll suspect that I pulled my punches with the term “complain”. I was going with another but suspected it might be taken as too pejorative. I suppose, upon reading the response, I should have been more honest than circumspect. We may then have avoided

the peripherally external.

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Quote:jasd

however, considering all the advantages our society now provides – why in the world does it continue...?

Quote:lazarus

There you go. Thats a good question to ask.

Why must it even be asked? Why does the bitterness still haunt the rest of us?

>>It might begin the healing process to ask yourself and the black friends that you may have that question.(I'm sure you have some). I mean black friends.<<

I’ve found that “the healing process” is usually autonomous; that is, it usually takes care of itself – given that there’s no outside interference. No muss, no fuss. Y’know, put a bandage on it and get on...

No, no black friends. I live in Oregon where seldom is seen – a black man (‘cepting in Portland or other large town); so, I ask you again,

“why in the world does it continue...?”

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Quote:jasd

That said,

it is time to “get over it”! (we’re years past...)

>>It is precisely the above that will ensure that you will keep hearing what you hear.<<

Okay. But you’ll note that I ‘heard’ it on the forum: what’s that say for the others who got it from the same pages I read?

>>Perhaps for you it may be even louder than it actually is. In fact, at times the mind makes a good amplifier.<<

Kudos! That’s good. Glad to see you embracing truths.

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Quote:jasd

(bring your bling but leave the junk at home)

>>keep it coming, son!<<

Good, huh!?

Have you ever listened to James David Manning’s sermons?

[jasd]

>>jasd, your post is self evident that you just don't get it...<<

This last post? and..., you didn’t get it that I didn’t get it – before?

>>Neither you, nor John, nor Olger nor Shane....<<

That is quite a large and encompassing statement. From that – I suppose it’s meant to say that you get it (whatever, in the world, it is...)?

>>You guys need to wake up black and live the life of a black man...at least for a month.....<<

No need. One did not have to experience the Gulag to know that it was not ClubMed. ...and, a month? that’s it? a month? not a day, a week – but a month?

Why a month?

>>......but I am afraid that it will tramatize you....<<

I’m too traumatized already to be much more traumatized. I mean, the pundits and commentators surmising upon whether or not we’ll have riots again – if, the DNC ‘steals the nomination from ‘bama’. I mean, illegal immigrants have murdered more Americans in the good ol’ USofA than have bled-out on the sands of Iraq. I mean, ...

Yes, I am traumatized.

Sometimes, Neil D, you’re as noisy as I. [/smilin’]

I have Oriental blood, American Indian blood (no one on this continent has been more abused than have they), and mebbe, having family roots in Mississippi, even some African blood. I am also European.

I’ve had good times and I’ve had bad times; but I’ve never subscribed to the plaint, the complaint, the whine, the whimper, the simper, or anything else that does not define the man. I weary quickly and easily at such.

I suppose I might be castigated for that. Sorry :-o

[jasd]

>>I, Walter E. Williams, do declare full and general amnesty and pardon...<<

I get a kick out of Walter Williams, especially his brand of self-praise (“I’m so good-looking I fear the physicality of women’s adulation”, “My wife is so lucky I’m her husband”, etc...)

I hope you took your father’s demise well. I lost my mother ‘bout 7 years ago and was in a bit of a mood with it for some time. Not good.

I appreciated your recollection of a lived and worthy life; and liked especially, the demi-entendre of the flag. Peace on your House

[John317]

...

Neither you, nor John, nor Olger nor Shane....

I am sorry, but you guys just don't get it....You guys need to wake up black and live the life of a black man...at least for a month.....

......but I am afraid that it will tramatize you....

What is it exactly that you are saying the above people don't get? What it is like to be black in America?

The only white man that I know of that truly knows what it WAS like to be black in the deep South was a journalist by the name of John Howard Griffin. He wrote a book in 1959 entitled, Black Like Me, the true story of how he changed the color of his skin and lived as a black man in New Orleans and other locations in the South. My father came home from work one day in 1960 and read portions of it to the family. It came as a great shock to all of us. I had no idea that life was like that for any American.

I've learned a lot since those days. I lived with blacks in the military and had some as my very closest friends. One was a mulato who confessed to me once with tears running down his face that he wouldn't wish on his worst enemy what he had been through, because he was acceptd by neither whites nor blacks. I took a course in black history which was taught by a member of the Black Panther Party, who used as his text a history book written by John Hope Franklin. Two of my closest army buddies were black medics. I hitch-hiked with one from Texas almost to Canada before we turned ourselves into the police and were put in jail together for a month.

Then he and I were given 3 months at hard labor in the military stockade. I learned a lot about race from that experience. I was threatened because I refused to fight with the whites against the blacks over a silly issue, whether to watch Bonanza or football. I saw a white friend of mine get beat beat to a pulp because he also refused to fight with the whites against the blacks. (The guards simply turned their backs and let the prisoners fight it out.) Later I watched my two best black friends beat up some white soldiers during a race riot on the military base and get discharged from the army for it.

I often go into LA and walk through the black areas of the city photographing the streets and the people. I've been accosted by blacks many times, been robbed a couple of times, but most of the people have been friendly. Sometimes I hear, "Hey what's this white guy doing with a camera here?"

Up until two weeks ago, when the place closed, I worked since 1987 in an institution where the majority of prisoners were black and hispanic gang members. Most of my fellow staff were black. It was a great job, and I'm intending to continue doing the same kind of work, as soon as I finish the vacation I promised myself after working there all those years.

[olger]

Thanks JASD. God bless you in all languages (except algebra).

[lazarus]

No, no black friends.

I knew there would be something that would help me understand why you say what you say.

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But you’ll note that I ‘heard’ it on the forum: what’s that say for the others who got it from the same pages I read?

It may be true that others who hear "it" are coming from the same place you are.

Keep posting.

I bet if we had a phone conversation of if we met in person our exchanges would take on a different flavor.

[Neil D]

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What is it exactly that you are saying the above people don't get? What it is like to be black in America?

The only white man that I know of that truly knows what it WAS like to be black in the deep South was a journalist by the name of John Howard Griffin. He wrote a book in 1959 entitled, Black Like Me, the true story of how he changed the color of his skin and lived as a black man in New Orleans and other locations in the South. My father came home from work one day in 1960 and read portions of it to the family. It came as a great shock to all of us. I had no idea that life was like that for any American.

How do I say this without sounding like some uppity white guy....?

Your author, whom I have read, knew that there would be an end to his blackness....There is a mindset already within white race, coupled with interaction with other whites, that negates the experiences of the black man. Any white man, no matter how much he identifys with the black man, who negates those experiences, doesn't "get it".

Even I don't get it, but the difference between you and I, is that I don't negate those experiences. No matter how white he trys to become, the black man will still be looked upon as ...a black man...And to the white world, he is different.

My suggestion would be to embrace the differences and identify the commonalities....Be yourselves...

But quit denying that one group is not the problem...Because both groups are the problem...

[lazarus]

I have to say this about John.

Even though I may not agree with all his perspectives he will engage in a discussion. He is not dismissive, does not try to ridicule feelings, he does not try to belittle or label an entire group of people.

I think its because he has taken the time to understand either by listening or reading. He also spent significant time in the company of people of color. That makes a world of a difference.

He is not far from the "kingdom"

[John317]

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What is it exactly that you are saying the above people don't get? What it is like to be black in America?

The only white man that I know of that truly knows what it WAS like to be black in the deep South was a journalist by the name of John Howard Griffin. He wrote a book in 1959 entitled, Black Like Me, the true story of how he changed the color of his skin and lived as a black man in New Orleans and other locations in the South. My father came home from work one day in 1960 and read portions of it to the family. It came as a great shock to all of us. I had no idea that life was like that for any American.

How do I say this without sounding like some uppity white guy....?

Your author, whom I have read, knew that there would be an end to his blackness....There is a mindset already within white race, coupled with interaction with other whites, that negates the experiences of the black man. Any white man, no matter how much he identifys with the black man, who negates those experiences, doesn't "get it".

Who says I am negating it? I don't believe that I am. You may think that I am, but that is possibly because of your misunderstanding of what I am saying, and it may also be because you are trying to force me into some kind of preconceived mold of what it means to be sympathetic to blacks in America.

What I see in this country now is a situation where people can't tell the truth as they see it without being labeled "racist" or whatever. Well, I am beyond that. Some of those terms are no longer used legitimately but are used to manipulate and control people who fear being called names. (We're now witnessing Democrats hurling the name at liberals such as Geraldine Farraro and Bill Clinton!)

I'm not afraid of that because I know who & what I am. I'm not out to try to persuade anyone of who I am. I am here to tell it like I see it after a lifetime of experience, observation, and reflection. I started out as a kid shocked and hurt by real racism, admiring Martin Luther King in 1961 when it wasn't fashionable for whites to like him. So I have tried to see it from both sides. But what complicates this is that we're far beyond the situation as it was in the 1960s and 70s; and just as whites do not always see everything the same, neither do blacks. Yet a lot of people try to make it seem that if you hold a certain view of something, you are betraying or rejecting all blacks. But that just isn't so.

Here are illustrations of some of what I dislike about the situation we're facing. I have a very close black friend who loves to play classical piano, but he doesn't like other blacks to know it. I have another black friend who believes that OJ was guilty of the murder of Nicole, but when the trial was in process, and even to this day, he would cup his mouth in his hands when he talked about if other blacks were close by. I have a number of black friends who like Bush but they wouldn't want other blacks to know it. When blacks are talking politics, those blacks who don't think the same about those issues don't express their true thoughts. This is what gives some people the false impression that all blacks think or feel the same way.

I've experienced enough in the black community to know that these kinds of things are hard on blacks themselves. They don't allow them to be free to express their true views, because they are afraid of being ridiculed, of being viewed as an Uncle Tom, or of being seen as not black enough. I believe this involves very serious issues in the black community, such as education and Christian values. There are youth who don't study and read because they don't want to be perceived by their black peers as trying to be white. So it creates a situation where failure is virtually encouraged. Black Christians frequently don't want to openly criticize the terrible lyrics of some of the rappers for fear they will be seen as being somehow disloyal to the black culture. But those things are actually harmful to black culture, so I don't see people who participate in them or encourage them by silence as being particularly helpful to the black community.

It's a lot easier and more popular to attack whites who no black man can change anyway, than to attack those things in the black community that he can change. It's a lot easier and more popular to attack the KKK, who hasn't physically hurt any blacks in decades, than to attack the gangs, drugs, and other blacks which are responsible for the death of thousands of blacks every year. And it's a lot easier and more popular to attack something that never even happened than to attack things that are happening every day right outside the church door and do much more harm to blacks.

So the way I see it, who is the true friend of blacks-- those that simply defend hate speech on either side or those who want to see blacks make real progress and not simply talk about it? I want to see continued and even greater improvement in race relations and in the overall situation of blacks. It seems to me that anyone who loves this country will want the same.

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

No, no black friends.

>>I knew there would be something that would help me understand why you say what you say.<<

Umm, lazarus, you’ll recall from other threads that I lived in the Greater Los Angeles area for ‘bout 35 years (even worked in South Central/Compton without incident: time and changes in the community no longer permit that). My first several jobs entailed working with a racial mix of co-workers. My first boss was a black woman who was exemplary in every manner: same with the racial mix of co-workers who shared work space, pizza, beer, etc. Other blacks with whom I associated were spouses of friends; again, sterling people, all. My brief since, has been with those

who seem to cherish slights or injustices, real and/or imagined; and as, exemplified by Wright...,

channeled them into a malady that prevents

simply getting on...

>>I bet if we had a phone conversation of if we met in person our exchanges would take on a different flavor.<<

I like you from what I ‘read’ of your posts. If you gave off – on the phone or in a personal exchange – the incessant grouse (with which I have no patience...), we would not get on

[jasd]

Good piece of writing. Expand upon it

and publish.

[lazarus]

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Quote:jasd

No, no black friends.

Didn't you say something about a two way street? Remember that it's you who posted "no, no black friends"

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I like you from what I ‘read’ of your posts. If you gave off – on the phone or in a personal exchange – the incessant grouse (with which I have no patience...), we would not get on

Did you say you like me?

I wanted to post an embarrassed smiley but couldn't find one. What is grouse?

[Kountzer]

My dad lived in South Central Los Angeles. I visited him a few times when I was in my mid to late 20s. Him and his wife, my step mom of sorts, Alma, lived in a nice brown stone house off 27th and Western. She taught school for the LA school district, and he worked for the city of Los Angeles. When I visited the gang stuff wasn't that bad, not as bad as it would get later.

[John317]

Good piece of writing. Expand upon it

and publish.

I take that as a very good complement, JASD. Many thanks!

[Amelia]

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He also spent significant time in the company of people of color. That makes a world of a difference.

That's it right there. Spending time with people of color. Interacting and really listening You can't get to know a single person or group or population unless you spend time with them. The "walk a mile in my shoes" adage applies here. Even spending time with just one person of a color will not illuminate the people as a whole.

[John317]

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Quote:John317

Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats

Thanks, for bringing to recollection that piece by Yeats; I’ve always thought it riveting – cleaving the marrow of the soul with anticipated dread.

“...

That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare ... And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?”

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The persona in Yeats' poem, instead of joyfully anticipating the Second Coming as Christians do, anticipates with the greatest dread the coming of an unimaginably terrifying "beast." I think your quote here from Revelation perfectly captures something of the horror that Yeats felt as he thought of the future of Europe during the years shortly after the First World War. Before the Great War, it was common for people to be optimistic about the future, but after the war, people's eyes were opened to the ugly probabilities that lay in the future. Millions upon millions of people alive at that time would be slaughtered in the most inhumane ways over the next 20 years. I don't say Yeats was a prophet like those in the Bible, but his poem clearly shows that he had a premonition of the nightmare to come.

[Planey]

What is grouse?

A grouse is a bird belonging to an order (galliformes) that also includes turkeys, chickens, quails, and pheasants.

There is a brand of Scotch whisky called "The Famous Grouse" which has a picture of the bird reproduced on its label.

The word was used colloquially (in places such as Britain and Australia) as a synonym for "excellent" or "splendid", as in "I went to a grouse concert!"

However I believe that in this context Jasd was using the word as a synonym for "grumble" or "complain".

I could be wrong, however. ("no, really?" I hear you say...)

Graeme