No more God Bless America?

[fccool]

John,

Once again. Your mentality of a victory is to invade and to force other party to admit the defeat. What you are proposing is two alternatives 1) A war, 2) Defeat. There are numerous alternatives to deal with the situation.

Modern idea of winning the war is to blast the previous regime and infrastructure, and then install the one they like, while rebuilding what they have damaged. This is by far not a great approach. Do you know how many people died during the "Great" October revolution in Russia in 1917? TWO (I'm not talking about the consequent deaths caused by Soviets)... The entire regime toppled over with minimal deaths overnight. How can that be? How many countries invaded Soviet Union before it fell? None! People just did not want to be a part of it anymore once they saw the world around them and that it can be different.

Jingoistic countries that overspend on military will eventually come to ruin economically and politically. All you have to do is to keep them at distance and let them run their course. History affirms this. Most of the people in the US do not want go to war as they did not want to go to war in Japan. They understood the horrible effects of the war as some of these still lived thought the civil war. All of the great empires collapsed and will collapse from within. But you see, people like FDR, Truman, and Bush... they need quick resolutions to justify their presidency. Without war and crises their presidencies are meaningless to them. No disrespect to these people personally, but how would these be remembered without wars and conflicts? What great would have Bush accomplished outside of the retaliation for 9/11? No child left behind? We need to learn from Reagan on how to deal with these issues. If husband and wife are having a fight next door, would you break down their door and club both of them? But this is what preemptive or "peacemaking" war is. Both the "victim" and the "tyrant" parties would suffer. There are numerous alternatives to invasion. If people do not like the regime, they will eventually overthrow it, or support it less and it will crumple without support of the people. People make up countries. People make up the armies of the tyrants. People give regimes power, and they can take it away. So the goal is to end conflict through education and pressure, and not by means of a club.

War reduces people to countries collectively. So it's not people who are dying, but it's countries "winning" or "loosing". There are no winners in war. Both parties loose, and loose without need to do so.

As far as the "greater" good. I don't know if you have kids, but which of them would you rather have been killed... your younger one and your wife... or just the older one? The correct answer is none. I hope that's your choice. Now do unto others how you would like to be done unto you.

Either way it's meaningless now, so I'd done arguing about it. Whether you are right, or I am... the results are the same and beyond change.

[Amelia]

WOW, how off topic can you guys get?

[Woody]

OK. Back on Topic.

Is there really anyone out there that believes that Whites created the HIV/AIDs virus to kill blacks?

Rev. Wright actually believes this. And Obama claims that for 20 years ... he was not aware of this belief. Comeon. You mean he sat in those pews and not one person mentioned this to Obama?

If this was mentioned to Obama ... would he not question if he should support such a pastor and include him in his campaign?

OR ... Are we to believe that all this hate speech ... which would put and has put many in jail ... was not known about and was not talked about? OR was it just quietly accepted and swept under the rug.

Why would Obama use this man as a "sounding board"?

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Why would Obama use this man as a "sounding board"?

Because this guy helped Obama find Christ. I have a very dear friend who is politically liberal and believes some goofy theories. But he is a conservative Adventist and a very devout believer. I named my son after him. If I ever ran for public office some people could use my friends goofy theories against me by saying since I named my son after him I must agree with his politics.

[John317]

Yes, you're right that it did get off, but we have to remember that the thing that started the thread was the pastor's talking about America's bombing of Japan as one of the great "evils" that America has done. He included it among the things that meant "God damn America" rather than bless it. Therefore, to discuss whether this was indeed an "evil", was not totally unrelated. But it looks like it would have been a good idea to move it to a different thread. This will be the last of it on this thread.

[Woody]

Quote:

Why would Obama use this man as a "sounding board"?

Because this guy helped Obama find Christ. I have a very dear friend who is politically liberal and believes some goofy theories. But he is a conservative Adventist and a very devout believer. I named my son after him. If I ever ran for public office some people could use my friends goofy theories against me by saying since I named my son after him I must agree with his politics.

Despite him finding Christ through this man. What this man is doing by saying what he said is against the law and should be prosecuted if we are to be uniform about law enforcement.

[fccool]

You can't kill healthy and breathing people in a non-evil way . God's law simply does not get suspended when a country is at war. There was a song during the Vietnam years (I believe) here are the lyrics...

He's five foot-two, and he's six feet-four,

He fights with missiles and with spears.

He's all of thirty-one, and he's only seventeen,

Been a soldier for a thousand years.

He'a a Catholic, a Hindu, an Atheist, a Jain,

A Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew.

And he knows he shouldn't kill,

And he knows he always will,

Kill you for me my friend and me for you.

And he's fighting for Canada,

He's fighting for France,

He's fighting for the USA,

And he's fighting for the Russians,

And he's fighting for Japan,

And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.

And he's fighting for Democracy,

He's fighting for the Reds,

He says it's for the peace of all.

He's the one who must decide,

Who's to live and who's to die,

And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,

How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?

Without him Caesar would have stood alone,

He's the one who gives his body

As a weapon of the war,

And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,

His orders come from far away no more,

They come from here and there and you and me,

And brothers can't you see,

This is not the way we put the end to war.

This is a really profound statement. Those tyrants would be nobody without people going and willing to kill each other... people who did not want to die, but were trained to become a brainless killing machines who don't ever question orders. I'm not trying to disrespect military folk here, but at the same time we elevate them to the level of saints, and they are not. They are regular people just like you and I and their job is not more important than jobs of a teacher or a parent. Dying for one's country is about the most stupid things you can do in Patton's words, not mine. You need to live for your country and respect other's wishes to do the same.

There's nothing wrong with hating war. I think that preacher has every reason to do so. I don't think he "hates" America. You can separate a country from what that country does. There are multiple levels of respect and reverence. You can hate one thing, and love another. Do I think that the preacher let his hate grow out too far that it became an object of his daily dwelling? Perhaps that's the case. There are other ways of articulating these issues instead of "God dam America"... way.

Yet we are not called to love everything as Christians. I think as Christians, we should be above allegiance to countries too, and go beyond these to individual level. Christianity is not a national religion. It's an individual relationship. Countries are only temporary places for our lives. These only exist because of sin and we need those to maintain order in a world full of sin. These also run by sinful people, who in most cases do not know Christ. In the end that is what Mark of the Beast is. The beast power is politico-(pseudo)religious. And the last time I remember we believe that USA will second beast? Is that a hateful thing to say? How soon do we believe Jesus to be coming back?

[jasd]

Post to Post:

Quote:

Quote:Shane

If I ever ran for public office some people could use my friends goofy theories against me by saying since I named my son after him I must agree with his politics.

Were the “public office” that of Commander in Chief of the USofA, then yes, you ought rightly to be vetted – as to, among other things – the acuity of your judgement.

Quote:

Quote:John317

This will be the last of it on this thread.

Not quite: “War is diplomacy.”

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Were the “public office” that of Commander in Chief of the USofA, then yes, you ought rightly to be vetted – as to, among other things – the acuity of your judgment.

I am not sure if that is a complement or criticism. I named my son after my dear friend because my friend was a spiritual mentor for me. Perhaps just like this pastor is for Barak Obama. According to Obama, these types of sermons were not typical and were so rare that he claims to have never heard one in person. Of course being friends with this pastor, Obama had to know of is extreme views. That being the case, a man with goofy political ideas can still be sound spiritually.

[Bravus]

Redwood seems to be assuming that the pastor has held the views he recently espoused publicly, and has been espousing them publicly, for the whole of the past 20 years, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

[John317]

But based on the things that this pastor teaches and evidently believes-- not only saying, "God damn America," but also that the US invented the HIV virus to kill blacks, etc.-- isn't it very likely that these are not the first things of this kind that he has said? I mean, those things are indicative of the way someone's mind is working and of a certain viewpoint. I'm pretty certain that when he said those things, the people were not totally astonished. Those things probably are in line with other things that he has said in the past. It would be interesting to read his writings and listen to his other speeches and sermons from years before, which I'm sure someone will be looking at.

I tend to want to favor Obama, actually, but I do think it's very important that Americans learn as much as possible about how Obama thinks, and the pastor he's been listening to for 20 years may shed some light on that.

If you listen to the sermons of the pastors I listen to for 20 years, and if you read the books I read, it will shed light on who I am and what I think.

[fccool]

Well, you don't have to go too far to find this type of radical speech. In fact I find hints of it everywhere I go in US. But some people do ask rational questions. So I guess in order to understand how Obama thinks, you have to understand how a black person thinks in general. I would like to believe that it's not different from how would white, or Mexican, or Asian would think... but realistically we know that these groups of people would have different sets of values (not in bad/good, but neutral way)... depending if they do hold to their cultural heritage of course.

Just take a look at a couple of these links.

http://www.afromerica.com/knowledge/justice/system/sentencehim.php

http://www.afromerica.com/knowledge/justice/system/ignorance.php

http://www.afromerica.com/knowledge/justice/hatecrimes/whitemalemedia.php

The last link in particular and how the author Blames the misunderstanding with Obama's pastor on "Angry White Men". And I can't help but to ask where will this mentality lead?

[Woody]

A few years ago a white student got arrested for calling a black student a "water buffalo". (Shaking my head) This mentor of Obama's would seem to have exceeded the term 'water buffalo' in my mind. Now the question is do our laws favor blacks and allow them to use hate speech? Or is there equal prosecution under the law?

[Bravus]

A friend of mine - not my pastor but my stock market guru, as it happens - is firmly convinced that 9/11 was a conspiracy perpetuated by the US government. Should I cut off all ties with him?

[Woody]

If you go to him for moral and spiritual values yes. But if you go to him for stock info ... he might be great.

The fact that Obama goes to Wright for moral and spiritual influence should be a factor in how we view Obama. We know little about Obama. But this much we know ... where he gets his moral and spiritual guidance. And that scares me.

[fccool]

Red, it all depends what you mean by "hate speech". There are plenty of the "hate speech" laws in Canada and Europe. I don't think this is the case for US, unless you consider workspaces in US, as far as I know. And I'm glad, because you could classify our views on Catholic church as such, and it is all moving in that direction.

Society that locks up people for speaking their mind, is not a free one. Would you like US to lock up the holocaust revisionists, just like they do in Europe for simply believing that the number of Jewish deaths is overstated? I mean, we can do that, but then we'd have to start locking up people who say that 9-11 is a government conspiracy by Bush and Chaney themselves (there are plenty of those), and other such people. I don't believe that they are burning with hate... I just think that they are misguided. The proper way around it is education, understanding and transparency. The reason that these conspiracies, and hate speech are on the rise is because people, and especially governments are not transparent enough in their actions so people are left out there to connect the dots and believe instead of know.

[John317]

Fortunately, so far, not many people in the US are suggesting that anyone should be locked up or even punished for saying anything, but we are saying that we should examine carefully what this pastor has been teaching over the last 20 years because of the insights it may offer into Obama's thinking. Most Americans want more freedom of expression, not less. Personally I think everyone should be free to say anything except to call for the violent overthrow of the US government or for the assassination of the president, etc. I don't believe the government has a right to say people can't use "hate speech." That can be, and has been, defined in such a way that an individual can be denied the right to tell what he believes is the truth.

Anyone read Orwell's 1984, or Huxley's Brave New World? Lies are truth, and truth is a lie. I dislike for the government or any group to define "truth" or make laws governing what the people should think and believe.

[Woody]

Personally ... I am opposed to hate speech laws. But we have them on the books. And they are used against whites and those who speak against homosexuals.

My concern is that if blacks speak hate against whites ... I feel they should also have liability under this law. I would either propose doing away with the law or applying it equally and fairly.

[Bravus]

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/03/17/wright/index.html

[Woody]

To that I say ... "Water Buffalo".

[John317]

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/03/17/wright/index.html

Do you believe that stuff? Talk about spin.

All I think is that it will be best for all Americans to go into the voting booth with full knowledge of Obama and the kind of associations he's had for the last 20 years. Also his voting record, the kinds of testing he's undergone, and his judgment (or lack thereof). And the same applies regarding Senator John McCain.

No matter what, this election will make history. Not since John Kennedy's election in 1960 has a Senator been elected president. That is sure to happen this year for the first time since Kennedy. And it could also be a first for either a woman or a black or both.

[Woody]

Rev. Wright says his church pledges allegiance to "Black Leadership". And that will continue. But I prefer to say God Bless AMERICA ... and ALL leadership whether the leadership is 'black' or 'white'.

[Amelia]

Obama Plans Speech on Race

Christopher Cooper reports on the presidential election.

March 17, 2008

WSJ

Sen. Barack Obama has already rebuked his longtime pastor for uttering words that critics find unpatriotic and racist. On Tuesday, he will attempt again to distance himself from Rev. Jeremiah Wright by delivering what the campaign says is a “major” speech on “Race, politics and unifying our country in Philadelphia.”

Until his retirement last month, Wright headed Trinity United Church of Christ for more than 30 years, counting Obama among his parishioners for nearly 20 of them. Over the years, Wright officiated at Obama’s wedding, baptized his two children and provided the quote that became the title of the senator’s second book, “The Audacity of Hope.” When Obama declared his run for the presidency, he brought Wright on board as an unpaid adviser.

What some of Obama’s closest supporters say is that the senator didn’t quite realize until more recently – after scores of news accounts – that Wright’s sermons trend toward the radical at times. Over the years, he has suggested Washington has led a plot to destroy African Americans, he has invited God to damn the country for its racist tendencies and he has intimated that the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington were perhaps warranted. These are not the associations Obama wants voters to ponder when they stand in the voting booth.

Obama already has taken some steps to distance himself from Wright. Last week, he said his former pastor’s statements were “inflammatory and appalling,” and compared Wright to a doddering old uncle whose antique views are outside of the mainstream. Obama has said he has never heard Wright utter such statements, either in church or in meetings.

But Obama’s condemnation of Wright’s statements have done little to take the edge of what has become a shrill debate on conservative talk radio shows and blogs, where pundits such as Rush Limbaugh have pilloried both men. To be sure, such attacks often fail to mention that presumptive Republican nominee Sen. John McCain had a similar uncomfortable brush with controversy when he gratefully accepted the recent endorsement of Texas televangelist James Hagee, best known by some by some for referring to the Roman Catholic church as “the great whore,” and a cult. “I repudiate any comments that are made, including Pastor Hagee’s, if they are anti-Catholic or offensive to Catholics,” McCain said, during a recent stop in heavily Catholic New Orleans.

Will Obama get a similar pass? The Illinois senator clearly hopes Tuesday’s speech will help. An aide said it is specifically tailored to address the mess wrought by Wright.

[Woody]

Quote:

Will Obama get a similar pass?

No.

You can't stop someone from an endorsement. But you can stop attending a church rather than attending for 20 years and having the guy on your campaign staff .

[John317]

Exactly. I've always seen the election of a president, no matter whether I voted for them or not, as a celebration of American freedom and republicanism.