No more God Bless America?

[Planey]

Originally Posted By: Shane

Again, I have had pastors say things that offended me. I have had pastors say things like we cannot keep the Ten Commandments. I have heard them question the Genesis account of creation. I have heard them justify divorce for reason clearly not Biblical. But I didn't confront them. I just blew it off. Let it go in one ear and out another. Many people don't feel it is their job to confront preachers.

None of the things you mentioned are on the same level as the things that Wright was teaching and preaching. Wright was lying about the United States and teaching hatred.

Personally, I find this statement to be astonishing. What is really being said here is that patriotism is far more important than being true to God's word.

It appears that some people worship the concept of "My Country Above All" and place their allegiance to America ahead of their allegiance to God.

I know that I would be much more worried if my preacher made statements that disagreed with Scripture than if he made statements that were unpatriotic to Australia. But then again that's just my opinion. YMMV.

Graeme

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

None of the things you mentioned are on the same level as the things that Wright was teaching and preaching. Wright was lying about the United States and teaching hatred.

[/quote']

Personally, I find this statement to be astonishing. What is really being said here is that patriotism is far more important than being true to God's word.

It appears that some people worship the concept of "My Country Above All" and place their allegiance to America ahead of their allegiance to God.

I know that I would be much more worried if my preacher made statements that disagreed with Scripture than if he made statements that were unpatriotic to Australia. But then again that's just my opinion. YMMV.

Graeme

The point here is that the outrageous teachings of Wright go to the issue of whether Obama showed good judgment or not. The issues that Shane brought up are common but nevertheless wrong ideas (in my opinion), yet if a President or Presidential candidate listened to someone talk about these ideas and even agreed with some of them, it would not be viewed as divisive as Wright's ideas are, and would not have the same impact on people's minds when it comes to deciding whether Obama should be the next president. I think that is obvious.

Perhaps you can see the difference for Americans between teaching that the United States government made the HIV virus to kill its citizens and saying that people cannot obey the Ten Commandments. We have quite a few people on CA who teach that we can't obey the Ten Commandments, yet I don't see much outrage or a lot of interest in the subject. Yet for some reason there is a whole lot of interest in what Wright said. Why? Because it has to do directly with the election of a man running for the office of the president and helps us understand something of how he thinks.

Can you see any difference between the political fallout that comes from saying America deserved 9/11 and the political fallout from a presidential candidate listening to someone say God used evolutionary processes to create the world? We have a number of people on CA who teach this concerning evolution. Should this topic be of greater interest to Americans when it comes to electing a president than the judgment of a candidate as demonstrated in listening to sermons in which the preacher says what Wright said?

How about if someone teaches that they don't believe the Bible's view of divorce?

Would a difference in how people view divorce cause American voters to have the same questions about Obama as they have about him on the basis of his choice to sit in Wright's church for years and listen to him say wrong and harmful things about people on account of their race?

It will be good to hear your opinion on these things.

[John317]

It has come out in the news recently that Obama's grandmother was very "hurt" and "upset" to hear him compare her to Jeremiah Wright.

Also, Obama gave an interview in which he called his grandmother a "typical white person," who gets nervous when she sees a black man walking behind her in a dark street. Obama said white's have this fear "bred into them" by the things they experience.

Yet Jesse Jackson has said that he also becomes fearful in certain circumstances that maybe he could be robbed and then is relieved when he sees that the person is white and not black.

Jesse, of course, is a black man and feels this, so why is Obama calling his grandmother a "typical white person" because she feels this when many blacks feel the same way?

Also, what is a "typical white person"? What is a "typical black person"? Isn't that stereotyping, the very thing that Obama wants people to get away from?

Personally I don't think there is such a person as "typical white" or a "typical black." It is this kind of language that is destructive and divisive, and I think Obama is going to hurt himself the more he talks about it.

America does need to discuss honestly the race issues, but at this time it can only hurt Obama. It's going to damage him, and I have a feeling that he will lose the race to be the Democratic nominee because of it. He has already fallen about 18 percentage points behind the position he was in about a week or so ago. Much could happen between now and August but Hillary will be making a case that Obama can't win. If the super delegates agree with her, he won't win. I expect a hot time at the convention if anything like that happens.

Anyone that thinks this issue with Wright didn't matter does not understand the American electorate. He could still pull it out but it increasingly looks doubtful.

How would you like to be called a "typical black person"? It wouldn't bother me at all to be called a typical white person or even a "cracker" but I know many who would be offended with that kind of language. What would hurt me would be to hear my wife and kids called "typical Mexicans." Now that would hurt.

[Neil D]

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He should have seen that this was necessary a long time ago. Why didn't he do it before? Because, it seems now, he was evidently blind to it, or because he misjudged the effects. Either way, it begs the question whether he has the judgment to be president.

By the way, what did Obama say when first confronted about this issue? Wasn't it that he was unaware of Wright's beliefs and teachings on this subject? Why would a good leader, when first confronted with the question about it, deny knowing of Wright's false teachings?

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and engaged the nation in talking about badly needed race relations.... That is pretty good Leadership qualities from a personal situation...

Again, it was a situation forced on him because the media brought it out in the open. He tried to avoid it but it was too late. He took too long to act.

You have waxed long on ONE issue. I haven't read everything, admittedly because it was TOO long.

Suffice to say, this is a minor issue that has been blown way out of perportion and does not get the same attention that it would have if it was McCain...it would have been glossed over...

there is a double standard being forced upon the public...another manipulative procedure whereby Hillary and the Republican agenda can work together. That may sound conspiratorial but it works for me...

[Woody]

Boy ... would I love to get ahold of Obama's passport records .... Hmmm. And it sounds like others had the same thoughts.

[John317]

And it looks today like someone had the same thoughts about the passports not only of Obama but of both McCain and Hillary Clinton as well. How dare they!

[Woody]

One thing this Wright thing has caused is that the positive campaign has been thrown to the wind. Fox News has just reported that the Obama side has called Clinton a liar.

Oh Boy. The race is on and getting ugly. Obama has released a photo of Bill Clinton at a meeting and Wright came over and shook the Clinton's hand when he was President. Does the Obama side think this is significant?

[John317]

It's certainly looking more and more like Obama can no longer make a convincing case that he is the one who can unite everyone. He cannot even unite his own party.

Also, during most of his campaign up to this point,he emphasized that what really matters is not experience but character, yet now, after Americans watched Wright, I doubt that is going to ring true for most voters.

I do believe our country needs to have an open, honest dialogue about race and racial problems, but it has to be from both sides, not just one-sided, and right now such a dialogue, with him at the forefront, can really only hurt him. I think the best thing for him politicly between now and the convention is to be quiet on the subject. The more he talks about it, the more apparent it becomes to the public that he is not really any different than anyone else. What got a lot of people excited, including myself at first, was the belief and hope that maybe at last here was someone different, somelike like a Lincoln or a Kennedy. That hope is now largely dashed.

[Kountzer]

I've gained admiration & respect for Obama. I hardly knew who he was before this election. Still, my hopes and aspirations are not tied to him. I realize that he is just a man, just a politician. All politicians, 99.8% of them, are full of hot air, whether they be black, white, latino, et al, liberal, conservative, whatever.

Besides all that, the bible, the sop, EGW, say that angels are holding back the 4 winds of strife. So, people on this msg board should not be that surprised that if you scratch the surface you find the anger and vitriol of a Jeremy Wright. You can point in any direction and find confusion and potential conflict brewing. Polar caps are melting trouble in the suburbs, in the inner city, Africa, Europe, don't even mention the middle east. Who ever wins the election is nothing more than a flag blowing in the wind.

[phkrause]

I agree 100%. And besides doesn't Jesus mention somewhere in the bible, (or is it EGW), that God set's up King's, Kingdom's, Ruler's, Presidents, etc. I don't worry at all who's in or who's out. Because I know that God is in control. So who really cares as to who is going to be President. I have faith that God know's exactly what he's doing.

pkrause

[John317]

I am not the least bit surprised by the anger of people like Jeremiah Wright. I am very familiar with it. I understand it. But that is not the issue.

As has been said many times before, this does not have anything to do with understanding Wright's anger or hatred. It certainly does not have to do with his right to express it. Rather, this has to do with how Obama thinks and whether Obama has demonstrated good or poor judgment. By sitting in that church all those years, Obama associated himself with Wright's points of view and teachings. If Obama expects to represent every American, white as well as black, he should know that as a U.S. Senator and Presidential candidate, he cannot give his power and support to a church where hatred and lies about America are taught.

[John317]

Yes, God is ultimately in control, but God uses people to fulfill his will regarding governments also. For instance, God used the American Civil War to end slavery in this country, and he used WW II to bring about the downfall of evil regimes like Hitler's and Hirohito's. That is the reason it is important for people to pray about it and make wise, intelligent decisions, particularly in a republic or democracy. It does make a difference, and people's choices are important because they impact society.

[Dr. Shane]

Obama's loyalty to Wright reminds me of Bush's loyalty to Rumsfield. It tells me that Obama's faith is more than just a public show on Sunday morning. It is a long way to November but if the election was held today, I think I would vote for Obama, a man of character, rather than McCain.

[jasd]

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Quote:Bravus

Did we think that the first black president in American history would be elected without race becoming a major issue at some point this year? I know I was pretty much waiting for that particular penny to drop.

Don’t you think that particular penny has already dropped – some time ago – when it became manifest that 80% of African-Americans were voting for ‘bama. (The figure in the last [Tuesday] balloting manifested over 90% in some States) That reads

‘ist-‘ism,

and represents cultural-centrism, hyphenation, or [even] tribalism.

I reiterate, where is AmericanCentrism? where are those vaunted speechifying calls for “unity”? ‘bama has taken a hard leftist turn.

Liberation Theology represents that hard turn left.

It has since, beginning with the ‘Pretty with Flags’ speech, been raining pennies: a squall (pun intended) of pennies from the left, if you will.

By playing the ‘ist-‘ism card to move scrutiny off-topic, the ‘bama campaign has, though not entirely having muted opposition – stifled it – with cries for "ladders of opportunity", etc.

[Bravus]

You still haven't had a serious stab at describing an AmericanCentrism that is different from the status quo. How could a black president be elected under the system you seem to be envisaging? Sure, it would be great if blacks voted on the issues rather than on race - but that would need to be balanced by all the whites doing the same. Will they?

[John317]

Being a personal friend or spiritual adviser is one thing, but you'll notice that Obama did tell Wright that he changed his mind about having Wright give the invocation at the announcement of his presidential campaign. He also took down all references to Wright's endorsements of him, and he took him off his campaign committee. So Obama is distancing himself from Wright. The question is why he didn't do it before.

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

Addendum:

It might be nice should the hyphenated community acknowledge the sacrifice extracted from our Union in both blood and treasure during the 1860s to put PAID to slavery

>>are you still sore that your side lost?<<

You’re half right. Both sides were mine: for and against the North and for and against the South: mostly for and about things which you’ve probably not considered.

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Quote:jasd

The 15th Amendment ratified in 1870 gave the emancipated male the vote, Jim Crow notwithstanding. [ed.Laz]

>>"Jim Crow notwithstanding" you're a card!<<

That’s a “Thanks” – by proxy? (The vote provided-for by the 15th Amendment, shortly post-Civil War, was abused in part and contributed to the rise of what the KKK refers-to as “Birth of a Nation”)

The estimated direct casualties (read: killed) of Americans (read: [vernacularly] honky-crackers?) in the War of Emancipation were between 620,000 and 700,000. Another half-million died from disease – those from wounds, inestimable.

“...these casualties exceed the nation's loss in all its other wars, from the Revolution through Vietnam.”

That would include the two World Wars (less, those who died in the universal flu epidemic).

Where has been shown the gratitude? Where has been expressed the simple Thank-you? ;-)

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Quote:lazarus

Why would someone not apologies? because they are not sorry.

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Quote:lazarus

Falwell has said the same crazy stuff about America but you'll give him a pass because he's right wing and he's white. Its that simple.

And the parallel to ‘bama – Wright lies exactly ... where? If Falwell was McCain’s Spiritual Mentor for twenty-years, I think it has eluded everyone except, perhaps – the rationalizers – and I’m

downwind from them. [/oy vay!]

[jasd]

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Quote:Redwood

Hey folks ... lets move on. How long must we be en-slaved by this past.

Exactamente! Say again!

Get over it.

What with all the programs, affirmative or no, that are available to ease the burden of our hyphenated communities – there is no excuse for not becoming a productive member of society (rather than a malingerer, a miscreant, or other) – ‘cepting excuse itself and, well, also..., hate or anger . Good grief,

nowadays, a fat person has a greater burden to bear than the emancipated.

[Dr. Shane]

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Bush's standing by Rumsfield is different from Obama's standing by Wright.

Runsfield cost Bush a lot politically. It would have been a good move politically for Bush to have dropped him soon after the insurgency began in Iraq. But Bush was too loyal for that. Loyalty is a trait of character that Obama shares with Bush.

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I think that the central issue of the controversy is what Obama did by staying in that church for so many years.

It was probably the church that brought him to Christ. He had a lot of friends there. A lot of people there helped him to run for political office. He was involved in the church's programs that helped the poor. A few goofy sermons the pastor would give a few times a year were not enough to offset all the good the church offered him and his family.

"typical white person" - replace the word typical with the word normal. I see nothing wrong with that.

"that's been bred into our experiences" - I believe he paused before saying the word experiences, it was the correct word to use. Many of our stereotypes come from our past experiences.

[jasd]

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Quote:Planey

It appears that some people worship the concept of "My Country Above All" and place their allegiance to America ahead of their allegiance to God.

Perhaps, ...not necessarily so; perhaps, they correlate?

jasd 12:12 ...and profane Esau who regarded not his inheritance: him Gd hated. And Dan, who despised his inheritance, him, Gd numbered not amongst his brethren.

[John317]

Obama's loyalty to Wright reminds me of Bush's loyalty to Rumsfield...

I think that Bush's standing by Rumsfield is different from Obama's standing by Wright. It appears different to me because Rumsfield was not doing or saying anything that showed that Bush favored one race over another, or that Bush was not representing all of Americans. I think that's the central issue in the matter of Obama's relationship to Wright and his church. It has to do with what Obama's staying in that church for so many years says. It was a church that was well known for its extreme points of view not only on race but on the United States. His staying there rather than objecting, protesting or walking out made it very difficult for him to convince people that he is neutral-- can be objective-- when it comes to racial problems. (His walking out would not have necessitated that he no longer have Wright as a personal friend or spiritual adviser; but it would have made it clear that Obama did not accept what Wright was teaching.)

Recently Obama said in an interview: "The point I was making was not that my grandmother, uh, harbors, uh, any racial animosity. She doesn't, but she is a, uh, typical white person, who, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know, you know, there's a reaction that's been bred into our experiences that -- that don't go away, and that sometimes, uh, come out in -- in the wrong way."

It seems to me that if Obama is calling for people to lay aside stereotypical thinking about race, he should do the same himself first. Perhaps he has the same stereotypical thinking about whites that he is asking whites to stop having about blacks. Perhaps also he has these stereotypical views of whites because he's sat for too long in Wright's church and heard Wright preach on the subject of race in America.

He seems to have either forgotten or disregarded the fact that many blacks have the same reaction that his "typical white" grandmother has. Jesse Jackson said he has the same reaction as this "typical white person." It has nothing to do with having an experience "bred into" us. I was really surprised that Obama would use those expressions, "typical white person" and "bred into our experiences."

None of the three current candidates were my first choice for the office, but I can't see how Clinton or Obama have the experience that would warrant my voting for them. But then that should not be surprising because Obama himself has been saying that the most important qualification is not experience but judgment. So I am looking for judgment.

[jasd]

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Quote:John317

Nor does current Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice.

..whom I would vote for in a thrice

[John317]

It looks from the polls like blacks did not begin to support Obama in large numbers until they saw that Obama was being supported by many whites and others, and that Obama won the Iowa caucus. That seems to be the beginning of his support by blacks. Almost all of my co-workers were black, and when I first began to talk to them about Obama, they had no enthusiasm at all, but not long after Iowa, I saw a change take place. So it was when they saw he might have a good chance to win. I was myself very impressed by his speech that night. He was like a reincarnated John Kennedy. That was how I felt as I watched and heard him for the first time that night. But I remember Kennedy, and Obama is no John Kennedy.

[John317]

Wouldn't that be some kind of matchup-- McCain/ Condoleezza Rice VS. Obama/Hillary.

Only thing is I expect Obama will pick someone else as his VP. He could pick Richardson, the New Mexico governor who endorsed him today. I do think Hillary would pick Obama as her VP, though.

[jasd]

Perspective:

“First, America has been the best country on earth for black folks. It was here that 600,000 black people, brought from Africa in slave ships, grew into a community of 40 million, were introduced to Christian salvation, and reached the greatest levels of freedom and prosperity blacks have ever known.

Wright ought to go down on his knees and thank God he is an American.

Second, no people anywhere has done more to lift up blacks than white Americans. Untold trillions have been spent since the '60s on welfare, food stamps, rent supplements, Section 8 housing, Pell grants, student loans, legal services, Medicaid, Earned Income Tax Credits and poverty programs designed to bring the African-American community into the mainstream.

Governments, businesses and colleges have engaged in discrimination against white folks -- with affirmative action, contract set-asides and quotas -- to advance black applicants over white applicants.

Churches, foundations, civic groups, schools and individuals all over America have donated time and money to support soup kitchens, adult education, day care, retirement and nursing homes for blacks.

We hear the grievances. Where is the gratitude?” --Pat Buchanan

That above stated: of those 40,000,000 Americans - it can be justly said that the great majority of them are rightly respected and contributing Americans: deserving to remove from their hyphenated designation or status. The era of the fractionalized citizen is a thing of the past, and rightly so. Those who agitate with such as

cursing this nation with a Gd-d*** should be immediately censored - without equivocation. The curse mirrors the man, in my humble opinion.

One errs in thinking criticism translates to ‘ist-‘ism or to prejudice.

“Cynicism is an unpleasant way of telling the truth” – Lillian Hellman