Moderators John317 Posted April 2, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 All of these "rests" prefigure the believers ultimate rest in heaven and the new earth after the second coming. The Sabbath rest, then, points to the final Sabbath celebration awaiting the people of God in in the future. Let's test your theory: There remains therefore a final Sabbath celebration in the new earth for the Jews. For the Jew who has entered this final Sabbath celebration in the new earth has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Do you know why this is a bunch of baloney? Because I don't care how well the Jew keeps the Sabbath, unless he accepts Christ there'll be no final Sabbath celebration for him. Your interpretation deserves an F minus. Rob Please go back and read: Quote: There are three "rests" that Hebrews 4 speaks of: 1) The rest of God on the seventh day when He completed the creation (Gen. 2: 1-3); 2) the "rest" that the children of Israel could have experienced when they were led out of Egypt, freed from slavery, but then failed to enter into due to disobedience and disbelief; and 3) the rest in Jesus, in which we transfer trust from our work to Christ. All of these "rests" prefigure the believers ultimate rest in heaven and the new earth after the second coming. The Sabbath rest, then, points to the final Sabbath celebration awaiting the people of God in the future. God promised Israel "rest" when they went into the Promised Land, but that was not the REAL "rest." Even those Jews who did go into the Promised Land did not find the perfect rest of God. The same with those who "rest" in Jesus. That is not the perfect "rest" that God has promised. The perfect "rest" that God has had for us ever since Eden is our eternal home with God, the Eden restored, which is described in Rev. 21 and 22:1-5. All the other Sabbath "rests" point to that final, ultimate Sabbath rest. Hebrews 3 and 4 are all about the importance of "resting" in Christ, and the writer says that just as the Jews could not enter into the rest of God in Canaan because of disobedience and lack of faith, so we also can fail to enter into the ultimate "rest" of God if we lack faith and are rebellious. Hebrews makes it very clear that those who do not accept Christ or who reject Christ will not enjoy the "rest" that God has made available for mankind since the creation. The message of the writer in 4:1 and onward is, Let us be careful not to fall short of it like the children of Israel did. It refers to the believer's eternal home that awaits us if we are faithful and obey. "Let us fear [dread] lest any of you should be found to have missed it [i.e., that final, ultimate "rest"]." Notice who were lost and whose bodies rotted in the wilderness: those whom God saved out of Egypt. Why? Because they disobeyed and had no true faith. They refused to believe God, and so they perished without experiencing the "rest" that God had planned for them. Hebrews 4: 11 reminds us that the same may happen to those who claim to believe in Jesus, and for the same reason: lack of faith and disobedience. "So let us continue coming with courage to the throne of God's unmerited favor to obtain His mercy and so find His spiritual strength to help us when we need it" (Hebrews 4: 16). Many people will begin the journey to the Promised Land, just as the ancient Jews did, but will tragically fail to reach the ultimate Promised Land and instead will die in the wilderness of this world because they refused to continue believing and obeying God. Let's not be found to be among them but rather among those who keep on "resting" in Jesus Christ and so finally arrive at the ultimate "rest" that God has planned for us. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 2, 2008 Share Posted April 2, 2008 When we make Sabbath keeping a requirement for salvation, we are not really entering into God’s rest, which points to a perfect and finished salvation, but have turned His Sabbath into salvation by works, the very opposite of what the Sabbath was intended for. And since by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight, such Sabbath keeping becomes meaningless. [Jack S.] This is good Robert. Thank you for sharing it with us. It is a real shame that many here have distroyed the rest that is in the Sabbath by making it a condition of salvation. But, I appreciate you pointing this important fact out to us. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 2, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 2, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert When we make Sabbath keeping a requirement for salvation, we are not really entering into God’s rest, which points to a perfect and finished salvation, but have turned His Sabbath into salvation by works, the very opposite of what the Sabbath was intended for. And since by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight, such Sabbath keeping becomes meaningless. [Jack S.] This is good Robert. Thank you for sharing it with us. It is a real shame that many here have distroyed the rest that is in the Sabbath by making it a condition of salvation. But, I appreciate you pointing this important fact out to us. The Sabbath is not the basis of our salvation. Neither is any obedience to any law whatsoever the basis or foundation of salvation. Not even obedience to the law against murdering your wife. We're not saved because we don't murder our spouses or children, yet for sure, if we are in a saving relationship with Christ, we won't murder them. There is a similar relationship between Sabbath keeping and being in a saving relationship with Christ. It's the same with any thing that we are convicted by God's Spirit that we ought to do or ought not to do. There will be millions of people in heaven who never heard of or obeyed the Sabbath commandment. The principle is, "To him that knows to do right, yet does not do it, to him it is sin." Many millions never even heard about the true Sabbath or never heard the truth presented in a way that they could understand the issues involved. By saying that Seventh-day Adventists teach error by saying the Sabbath is a condition of salvation, you are only setting up "a straw man." Seventh-day Adventists don't teach that the Sabbath is a condition of salvation, any more than they teach we must keep any other commandment in order to be saved. Did God save Israel out of Egypt because they kept the Sabbath? Of course not. And neither does God save us because we keep the Sabbath. (The fact is that God saved them out of slavery in order that they would be free to keep the Sabbath.) Yet, because they refused to trust God and refused to obey God, they did not make it into the Promised Land. They were saved from slavery, just as we are saved from sin, yet like the ancient Hebrews who left Egypt, if we refuse to continue trusting and obeying, we also will not make it into the heavenly Promised Land. This is the message of Hebrews 3 and 4. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 If those practicing "adultery, fornication...lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred,....selfish ambitions, ...heresies,...murders,.. ..and the like...will not inherit the kingdom of God," Gal 5:19-21, I believe that it is also reasonable to assume that those who knowingly persist in flouting the 4th commandment will also receive the same judgment. Gerry Sorry...it doesn't say that! So you can't "reasonable assume". You can be unreasonable and you are.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 How can you quote, "Love your neighbor as yourself" and then conclude "no self-love?" Per your reasoning, if there is no love for self whatsoever, then there is no love for a neighbor either!!! You can't give what you don't have!!!Gerry What would you do if some mob pulled you out of your house and started to beat you? After that they started nailing you to a tree? Would you be willing to love them more than yourself? Would you forfeit heaven so these thugs could take your place in heaven? Jesus did! You see on the cross Christ had to make a choice: 1] Shall I save myself and come down from the cross or 2] shall I take the 2nd death never to see heaven again? Christ picked # 2. He loved His neighbor (His enemies) as Himself, right? Tell me, where was Christ's self-love? The cross forever proves that Christ loves us - His enemies - more than Himself. If Christ loved Himself He would have come down from the cross. After all He was utterly innocent! Compared to His love you and I are a wretched sinners! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 The message of the writer in 4:1 and onward is, Let us be careful not to fall short of it like the children of Israel did. It refers to the believer's eternal home that awaits us if we are faithful and obey. Wrong! Clearly out of context.... "THEREFORE, let us [the Hebrews of Paul’s time] fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it." The Jews were already in Canaan - the Promised Land. Therefore Paul was not speaking of “His rest” being the land of Canaan. Then what does Paul mean by “His rest”? For indeed we [believers] have had the gospel preached to us, just as they also [the Jews in the time of the exodus]; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard. 3 For we who have believed enter that rest… Did you get that, John? "That rest" (i.e., His rest) cannot refer to that ultimate rest. It doesn't say, "For we who have believed WILL enter that rest"? No! It says, "We who have believed (i.e., who have accepted the gospel) ENTER that rest. Hebrews 4:9,10 is dealing with the sign of entering "His rest". Let's look at it again: "9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest [Greek: sabbatismos - a keeping sabbath] for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his." Why does "a keeping the Sabbath" remain since the Jews were already keeping it? Romans 9:30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert When we make Sabbath keeping a requirement for salvation, we are not really entering into God’s rest, which points to a perfect and finished salvation, but have turned His Sabbath into salvation by works, the very opposite of what the Sabbath was intended for. And since by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight, such Sabbath keeping becomes meaningless. [Jack S.] It is a real shame that many here have destroyed the rest that is in the Sabbath by making it a condition of salvation. Right, many Adventist take the sign of justification by faith and perverted it into justification by works. The Judaizers did it especially with circumcision and Traditional/Historic Adventists do it with the Sabbath. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Seventh-day Adventists don't teach that the Sabbath is a condition of salvation, any more than they teach we must keep any other commandment in order to be saved. Are you calling me a liar, then? I was an Adventist from 1988 to 1997 and I know first hand that Adventists make Sabbath observance a condition of salvation. I was there...I heard it...I bought into it. Then I learned better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo If those practicing "adultery, fornication...lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred,....selfish ambitions, ...heresies,...murders,.. ..and the like...will not inherit the kingdom of God," Gal 5:19-21, I believe that it is also reasonable to assume that those who knowingly persist in flouting the 4th commandment will also receive the same judgment. Gerry Sorry...it doesn't say that! So you can't "reasonable assume". You can be unreasonable and you are.... Robert, which commandment of God's moral law do you believe a man or woman might knowingly persist in flouting (assuming they realize it is a sin to disobey it), never repent of, and still be saved? The first? Second? Third? Fifth? Which? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 The principle is, "To him that knows to do right, yet does not do it, to him it is sin." Many millions never even heard about the true Sabbath.... Even if you tell some ignorant person about the 7th day doesn't mean he is convicted. Why? You are not the Holy Spirit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Sorry...it doesn't say that! So you can't "reasonable assume". You can be unreasonable and you are.... Robert, which commandment of God's moral law do you believe a man or woman might knowingly persist in flouting (assuming they realize it is a sin to disobey it), never repent of, and still be saved? The first? Second? Third? Fifth? Which? Under the NC faith fulfills the first four....The last six are a standard for Christians living under grace, although they fall short of God's agape love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Seventh-day Adventists don't teach that the Sabbath is a condition of salvation, any more than they teach we must keep any other commandment in order to be saved. Are you calling me a liar, then? I was an Adventist from 1988 to 1997 and I know first hand that Adventists make Sabbath observance a condition of salvation. I was there...I heard it...I bought into it. Then I learned better. I never assume anyone is lying, especially on CA. I assume people tell the truth and mean exactly what they say, unless they say they're joking or unless the context and language makes that rather obvious. So, no, I don't think you're lying. I believe you misunderstood what was being taught. Ellen White speaks for the SDA church about as much as any individual outside the Bible can speak, and she wrote many times that Sabbath keeping is not a condition of salvation. She says clearly that people will be in heaven who did not keep the Sabbath. There may be some individual SDAs who misunderstand this issue. You have to remember that that if you misunderstood what the church teaches, then there are probably a few others who do likewise. I suppose that if you asked a Sabbath school class of youngsters if Sabbath observance is a condition of salvation, you could have quite a few who would answer in the affirmative. Does that mean the church really does teach this? Of course not. The problem is that people, especially young people, don't hear everything that is being said, and often they don't grasp all of the details of a doctrine. For instance, they may hear that the Sabbath is important and that there will be people lost because they refused to keep the Sabbath, and they interpret this to mean that "the Sabbath is a condition of salvation." Doesn't the Bible teach that there will be people lost because they lacked faith and disobeyed God? Of course it does. It is found in Heb. 3 and 4, as well as in many other Scriptures. What reason does Heb. 3: 18 and 4: 6 give for the fact that Israel did not enter the Promised Land? Does that mean to you that the Bible teaches that obedience is a condition of salvation? There are things written about the Sunday/Sabbath issue that are often interpreted by some to mean that SDAs are teaching that the Sabbath is the foundation of salvation or that the Sabbath is a condition of salvation, but that doesn't mean it is true. All of the literature I have read on the subject say plainly that no man is saved by Sabbath-keeping. Much of the literature even says that most of the people saved in heaven will not have kept the Sabbath. The church is not responsible for what every individual member says. But if you read what our official publications teach and what our professors of religion, and even our ministers write and preach, you will not see anything that indicates we are saved by any other means than God's grace through faith. We as a church don't teach on this subject anything that cannot be easily found in the gospels and in the letters of Paul, John, James and Peter. For instance, I suppose we could be accused of being legalists because we teach that the one practicing murder will not be saved, unless he repents and stops murdering. Yet Paul says the same thing in Gal. 5: 19-21 and 1 Cor. 6: 9-10. Was Paul making law keeping a condition of salvation? We're not saying anything different than the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to say. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Robert, which commandment of God's moral law do you believe a man or woman may knowingly persist in flouting (assuming they realize it is a sin to disobey it), never repent of, and still be saved? The first? Second? Third? Fifth? Which? Quote: Under the NC faith fulfills the first four....The last six are a standard for Christians living under grace, although they fall short of God's agape love. Do you mean that under the New Covenant, a man or woman who claims to have faith in Christ "may knowingly persist in flouting" the first four commandments and yet be saved even though they don't repent of it? That is the question here. And yes, I agree that we all fall short of God's agape love. I don't see that as the issue. The issue is whether Christians will be saved even though they knowingly persist in flouting* (assuming they realize it is a sin to disobey it) any of the commandments and never repent of doing so. What is your conviction on the basis of your prayerful and thoughtful study of God's Word? *By "flouting" I mean openly disregarding or ignoring a commandment they know to be God's. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 The principle is, "To him that knows to do right, yet does not do it, to him it is sin." Many millions never even heard about the true Sabbath.... Even if you tell some ignorant person about the 7th day doesn't mean he is convicted. Why? You are not the Holy Spirit. I agree. It is the Holy Spirit that brings conviction and illuminates our minds. God uses our voices and our pens or key boards but the bottom line is that we must have our minds and hearts open to the Spirit. It's just like 1 Cor. 2: 10-14 says: if someone does not have the Spirit of God, he could hear the truths of the Bible taught all day long, but to him it will be nonsense. I believe that two Christians can both have equal portions of the Spirit and yet disagree over some doctrines. Why? Because we all are at different stages of our spiritual understanding and growth and we all come from different backgrounds and have had different experiences that affect our views. That is no problem for God, as long as we are sincerely and honestly seeking for truth, and God alone knows who is doing that. We can't. We can only go by actions and words, and we often can be wrong in how we interpret those. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Do you mean that under the New Covenant, a man or woman who claims to have faith in Christ "may knowingly persist in flouting" the first four commandments and yet be saved even though they don't repent of it? I'm sorry, did you say something? Again, Paul: For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” I accept Christ by faith and in return I experience fruits....To accept Christ by faith means that He is my only ticket to heaven. I can't work my way in....I can't get there through someone else. So I rest in His redemption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Doesn't the Bible teach that there will be people lost because they lacked faith and disobeyed God? Of course it does. It is found in Heb. 3 and 4, as well as in many other Scriptures. 12 Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. Why will most folks be lost in the end? Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Sin - the love of self - will tell you, "you're not that bad - in fact your a good person - you don't need Jesus. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end; 15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.” 16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. Paul isn't speaking of disobedience to the law....He is speaking of the sin of unbelief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Do you mean that under the New Covenant, a man or woman who claims to have faith in Christ "may knowingly persist in flouting" the first four commandments and yet be saved even though they don't repent of it? I'm sorry, did you say something? Again, Paul: For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” I accept Christ by faith and in return I experience fruits....To accept Christ by faith means that He is my only ticket to heaven. I can't work my way in....I can't get there through someone else. So I rest in His redemption. That is not even coming close to touching the question, Robert. The question does not imply that Jesus is not our only ticket to heaven or that anyone can work their way into heaven. But OK, you apparently can't give an answer. The Bible has no trouble giving a clear and decided answer. Hebrews 3 and 4, just for starters. Look what happened to the many examples in the Old Testament. God rescued His people out of Egypt, but only a couple of them actually made it into the Promised Land. Why? God is the same God today as He was yesterday and He will be the same tomorrow. What reason does Hebrews 4: 11 say we should be diligent? According to Hebrews 3: 1 and 4: 1, what rest might we come short of? And according to 3: 12 -14, 19, and 4: 6, how and why might that happen? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Doesn't the Bible teach that there will be people lost because they lacked faith and disobeyed God? Of course it does. It is found in Heb. 3 and 4, as well as in many other Scriptures. 12 Take care, brethren, lest there should be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart, in falling away from the living God. Why will most folks be lost in the end? Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Sin - the love of self - will tell you, "you're not that bad - in fact your a good person - you don't need Jesus. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end; 15 while it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.” 16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they should not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. Paul isn't speaking of disobedience to the law....He is speaking of the sin of unbelief. Quote Hebrews 4: 6 and 11. You will see that unbelief and disobedience to God are the same thing. It's as apostle John says, we can't say we believe or have faith unless we're obedient to God. He who says he knows or loves Jesus but does not obey Him is a liar (1 John 2: 4). Jesus Himself said the same thing: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.'' Did Jesus only have faith? No, Jesus' faith translated into obedience. Almost the whole of the book of First John teaches the same thing. True belief produces obedience, certainly not disobedience. God does without question forgive disobedience and sin, but sin that is repented of, not sin that is persisted in (see 1 John 1: 9; 2: 1,3). And that is the question here. But since you apparently have no desire or willingness to answer the question, we could move on to another subject. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: The Sabbath is not the basis of our salvation. Neither is any obedience to any law whatsoever the basis or foundation of salvation. Ellen White seems to make a link ... Quote: "Then I was shown a company who were howling in agony. On their garments was written in large characters, 'Thou art weighed in the balance, and found wanting.' I asked who this company were. The angel said, 'these are they who have once kept the Sabbath and have given it up.'" Ellen G. White, Early Writings, p. 37 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Do you mean that under the New Covenant, a man or woman who claims to have faith in Christ "may knowingly persist in flouting" the first four commandments and yet be saved even though they don't repent of it? I'm sorry, did you say something? Again, Paul: For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” I accept Christ by faith and in return I experience fruits....To accept Christ by faith means that He is my only ticket to heaven. I can't work my way in....I can't get there through someone else. So I rest in His redemption. You acknowledge fruit-bearing, but when anybody else talks about it, you call it legalism! You still haven't answered the question. Or did you mean by quoting, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself", none of us are doing doing it since by your definition owning anything is selfishness and therefore a practice of sin, that God will let us all in in spite of practicing sin? Is that your answer? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: "But those who have the least sense of the perfection of Jesus, those whose eyes are least directed to Him, are the ones who make the strongest claim to perfection." FW 54 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo If those practicing "adultery, fornication...lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred,....selfish ambitions, ...heresies,...murders,.. ..and the like...will not inherit the kingdom of God," Gal 5:19-21, I believe that it is also reasonable to assume that those who knowingly persist in flouting the 4th commandment will also receive the same judgment. Gerry Sorry...it doesn't say that! So you can't "reasonable assume". You can be unreasonable and you are.... So according to your reasoning, the practice of violating the 6th (murder), the 7th (adultery & fornication), the 2nd (idolatry), can exclude one from heaven, but since the practice of violating the 3rd, 4th, the 5th, 8th 9th & 10th are excused because they are not expressly mentioned? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: Sin - the love of self - will tell you, "you're not that bad - in fact your a good person - you don't need Jesus. And since everyone is a lover of self per your definition, we are all practicing sin, right? Soooooo, the only way that heaven could be populated would be to admit people who are openly practicing sin, right? Anything less would make heaven empty, right? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted April 3, 2008 Share Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: The Sabbath is not the basis of our salvation. Neither is any obedience to any law whatsoever the basis or foundation of salvation. This is what Ellen White has to say about the topic ... Quote: "God will frown upon those who disregard his commandments and he cannot bless the church that retains Sabbath-breakers in its fellowship." Ellen G. White, Signs of the Times, 1890-06-02. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 3, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 3, 2008 Quote: The Sabbath is not the basis of our salvation. Neither is any obedience to any law whatsoever the basis or foundation of salvation. Ellen White seems to make a link ... Quote: "Then I was shown a company who were howling in agony. On their garments was written in large characters, 'Thou art weighed in the balance, and found wanting.' I asked who this company were. The angel said, 'these are they who have once kept the Sabbath and have given it up.'" Ellen G. White, Early Writings, p. 37 So how does your above quote square with your belief that once you have declared belief in Jesus that you are forever safe and saved? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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